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Author Topic: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards  (Read 65089 times)

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O

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #100 on: July 14, 2012, 03:04:20 am »
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....blueblimp, when Bm-bm GETS A T3 AMB it holds its own. What about when, you know, it *doesn't* get a t3 amb?

and smithy-BM isn't strong BM.
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blueblimp

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #101 on: July 14, 2012, 02:21:04 pm »
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....blueblimp, when Bm-bm GETS A T3 AMB it holds its own. What about when, you know, it *doesn't* get a t3 amb?
But Fabian was claiming that BM/BM loses when it gets a T3 Amb:
Quote
Let's say you open BM/BM, find an Ambassador on turn 3!! and there's Village available to buy on turn 4!!! Sick magical christmas land dream scenario indeed. What's your winning chance against Big Money Ultimate? What about BM/Smithy?
It's definitely reasonable to think BM/BM is weak, but it's absurd to say it loses to BMU after getting a T3 Amb.

Quote
and smithy-BM isn't strong BM.
I didn't say "strong", I said "decent". And it is decent: see http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=2532.0, where it's placed about mid-tier among BM+X cards. It goes roughly 44/52 against Masq+BM and about even against Envoy+BM, for example. Certainly, there are plenty of boards where there is no BM+X as good as BM+Smithy.
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Fabian

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #102 on: July 14, 2012, 02:26:38 pm »
+1

Are you quite sure I made that claim? You even quoted the relevant part yourself so it should be very easy to double check.

Anyway I made a post earlier today but I deleted it because I didn't want to pile on. It had a few game logs of BM/BM/Amb/Village/Smithy (alternating Village/Smithy for a while, then buy a Curse etc, basically the deck you were talking about earlier) losing 4-1 to BM+Smithy with 3 games being complete blowouts and 2 games being close. I suggest you try it out yourself.

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blueblimp

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #103 on: July 14, 2012, 02:56:26 pm »
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Are you quite sure I made that claim? You even quoted the relevant part yourself so it should be very easy to double check.
I had to guess what you meant since you refuse to say anything meaningful, preferring to just taunt. So, apologies for not reading your mind correctly.

Quote
Anyway I made a post earlier today but I deleted it because I didn't want to pile on.
OK, so you taunt repeatedly and then decline to post anything of substance, then claim that you did this to avoid a heated discussion. Heads up: if you troll someone, you want a heated discussion. You got what you wanted, now post something of value.

Quote
It had a few game logs of BM/BM/Amb/Village/Smithy (alternating Village/Smithy for a while, then buy a Curse etc, basically the deck you were talking about earlier) losing 4-1 to BM+Smithy with 3 games being complete blowouts and 2 games being close. I suggest you try it out yourself.
Yeah, it seems like the restriction on not buying anything more out of the BM deck hurts this too much. There are lots of turns where I'd normally buy a $3 from the BM and then buy a Village, but here I'm stuck just buying a Village. So the restriction on never again using the BM deck is too harsh. Having something with +buy available would probably do the trick, too.
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clb

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #104 on: July 14, 2012, 06:21:38 pm »
+1

Is there some way a magic moderator or administer can move Qvists second half of the list to be under the first half? Maybe I am just dumb, but I didn't even see the second half until today, as I was just following the discussion on later pages, kind of getting confused why everyone seemed to know something I didn't. If nothing else, it will make it easier to find a few months from now when I want to check back.
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Qvist

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #105 on: July 15, 2012, 12:37:09 am »
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I don't know if this is possible. I know that I forgot to edit the title this time in something like "... Part 2/2 posted" I will do that next time. But at least I added a link below the first post that links to the second part. So you can find it quick.

clb

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #106 on: July 15, 2012, 12:47:58 am »
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I don't know if this is possible. I know that I forgot to edit the title this time in something like "... Part 2/2 posted" I will do that next time. But at least I added a link below the first post that links to the second part. So you can find it quick.

That'll work. Thanks, Qvist!
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Kahryl

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #107 on: July 17, 2012, 02:32:32 pm »
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Man, I should have voted. Develop is not even close to second worst. I almost always buy one, and practically every time I draw it it's useful. There's always SOME card you don't really have a use for in your hand; develop it into two more cards that you can use next time!
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Robz888

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #108 on: July 17, 2012, 02:34:41 pm »
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Man, I should have voted. Develop is not even close to second worst. I almost always buy one, and practically every time I draw it it's useful. There's always SOME card you don't really have a use for in your hand; develop it into two more cards that you can use next time!

But what $3 cards are worse than Develop?
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Kahryl

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #109 on: July 17, 2012, 02:52:59 pm »
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Man, I should have voted. Develop is not even close to second worst. I almost always buy one, and practically every time I draw it it's useful. There's always SOME card you don't really have a use for in your hand; develop it into two more cards that you can use next time!

But what $3 cards are worse than Develop?

Chancellor, Woodcutter, Workshop, Great Hall (without support), Loan, Trade Route, Wishing Well (without support) all suck and are worse.

Although the $3 doesn't have as many real duds as $4 and $5, it's true.
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chwhite

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #110 on: July 17, 2012, 04:21:40 pm »
0

Man, I should have voted. Develop is not even close to second worst. I almost always buy one, and practically every time I draw it it's useful. There's always SOME card you don't really have a use for in your hand; develop it into two more cards that you can use next time!

But what $3 cards are worse than Develop?

Smugglers, of course.
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Kahryl

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #111 on: July 17, 2012, 04:25:14 pm »
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That's another thing. Why are people hating on Smugglers all the time. I get great stuff from them. Almost always get at least one, even two if the board is full of nice things.
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brokoli

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #112 on: July 17, 2012, 04:29:07 pm »
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Man, I should have voted. Develop is not even close to second worst. I almost always buy one, and practically every time I draw it it's useful. There's always SOME card you don't really have a use for in your hand; develop it into two more cards that you can use next time!

But what $3 cards are worse than Develop?

Smugglers, of course.

I think I ranked develop last but I have used it better recently, so maybe now I would rank it behind Workshop at least.
That said, I REALLY disagree about ranking it above loan (which is THE underrated card in this list) and Great Hall (hey, that is a victory point !).
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Robz888

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #113 on: July 17, 2012, 04:30:56 pm »
+1

Man, I should have voted. Develop is not even close to second worst. I almost always buy one, and practically every time I draw it it's useful. There's always SOME card you don't really have a use for in your hand; develop it into two more cards that you can use next time!

But what $3 cards are worse than Develop?

Smugglers, of course.

Oh, no way, man. Though for me Smugglers is truly one of those cards where if I buy it, I lose. If I don't buy it and my opponent does, I lose. If neither of us buy it, I lose. Smugglers and Golem are like that for me.
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chwhite

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #114 on: July 17, 2012, 04:54:57 pm »
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Man, I should have voted. Develop is not even close to second worst. I almost always buy one, and practically every time I draw it it's useful. There's always SOME card you don't really have a use for in your hand; develop it into two more cards that you can use next time!

But what $3 cards are worse than Develop?

Smugglers, of course.

Oh, no way, man. Though for me Smugglers is truly one of those cards where if I buy it, I lose. If I don't buy it and my opponent does, I lose. If neither of us buy it, I lose. Smugglers and Golem are like that for me.

That's kinda like how I am with Noble Brigand.

As for Smugglers... it's my absolute highest Win Rate Given Available (and up there for Win Rate Without), so I'm pretty confident I know how to succeed when it's on the board.  And the secret to success with Smugglers is to buy it way, way less often than you would expect.  I get it less than half as often as the general populace, and have won dozens upon dozens of games primarily because of my willingness to ignore it, even in situations where the conventional wisdom might find it useful.

Smugglers is almost without question the most overrated card in all of Dominion. 
« Last Edit: July 17, 2012, 04:56:10 pm by chwhite »
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chwhite

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #115 on: July 17, 2012, 04:58:44 pm »
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That's another thing. Why are people hating on Smugglers all the time. I get great stuff from them. Almost always get at least one, even two if the board is full of nice things.


Cause it sucks.  I get great wins all the time from my opponents falling into the Smugglers trap.
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Robz888

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #116 on: July 17, 2012, 05:15:00 pm »
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That's another thing. Why are people hating on Smugglers all the time. I get great stuff from them. Almost always get at least one, even two if the board is full of nice things.


Cause it sucks.  I get great wins all the time from my opponents falling into the Smugglers trap.

Well, I want to believe you, because I hate Smugglers.
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chwhite

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #117 on: July 17, 2012, 05:21:50 pm »
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That's another thing. Why are people hating on Smugglers all the time. I get great stuff from them. Almost always get at least one, even two if the board is full of nice things.


Cause it sucks.  I get great wins all the time from my opponents falling into the Smugglers trap.

Well, I want to believe you, because I hate Smugglers.

I'd say that Smugglers is good with Minion, Grand Market, cheap alt-VPs like Gardens, SR, Duke, and Vineyards... and just about nothing else.  This is not a hard and fast rule, but it's pretty close to the truth.

Smugglers is not nearly as bad as the worst $4s, or the worst $5s, or 'Mute/PStone, or Adventurer.  But I do think it's likely the worst $3 (though you could make good arguments for Develop, Workshop, and Chancellor- they're all pretty close).
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theory

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #118 on: July 17, 2012, 06:16:00 pm »
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I like it as an extra Buy on a no +Buy board.  And sometimes if you start out hosed, you need to gamble on it to get ahead.
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #119 on: July 17, 2012, 11:01:45 pm »
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I'd make the case for workshop being the worst of the $3 cards. It's just really awful for everything except picking up cards for alt vp and maybe scooping up an island or two in a drawn out game.

In my experience workshop -> silk road is very beatable. I'd be interested in hearing what the emulators have to say about that.
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Robz888

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #120 on: July 17, 2012, 11:07:22 pm »
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I'd make the case for workshop being the worst of the $3 cards. It's just really awful for everything except picking up cards for alt vp and maybe scooping up an island or two in a drawn out game.

In my experience workshop -> silk road is very beatable. I'd be interested in hearing what the emulators have to say about that.

I thin they'd say workshop/silk roads is usually not very beatable on Province boards. There are exceptions, of course.
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popsofctown

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #121 on: July 17, 2012, 11:53:31 pm »
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I play Workshop Gardens against Workshop SR once, lost hard.

Workshop has enough buddies to be considered okay.  I just won with Workshop/Vineyards game before last
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #122 on: July 18, 2012, 12:14:29 am »
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I'd make the case for workshop being the worst of the $3 cards. It's just really awful for everything except picking up cards for alt vp and maybe scooping up an island or two in a drawn out game.
It's also good for picking up villages or Caravans if you're making an engine that needs a lot of cheap pieces.
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RisingJaguar

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #123 on: July 18, 2012, 09:48:43 am »
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Blueblump sorry but you're just so wrong on this one.

"I'm going to clog my deck with 2x terminals for the reshuffle so that I can buy a third terminal on t3/t4 if I get very lucky. After clogging my deck with 3 terminals that help my economy significantly less than silver, I'll get rid of coppers/estates 2/2. Then I will build an engine that could not have been made by ignoring BM/ambassador"...

I'm thinking smithy BM will crush this without fishing village support or something similar outside of the bm deck, with MORE key cards within the BM deck.
Just ran a quick solo game with opening BM/BM, buying an Amb T3, then buying no actions except Village/Smithy. This is about as bad an engine as it gets. By the end of turn 13, it has already given the opposing player 3 coppers and 2 estates. Starting turn 14 (when unattacked Smithy BM typically hits 4 provinces), it begins sending over a curse every turn and buying a province every turn. Of course that will break down after a bit of greening, but that's not really the point, since this is a terrible engine anyway. (Log for what it's worth: http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201207/13/game-20120713-221636-d0a2bf4f.html.)

So, even with an awful engine, a T3 Amb after BM/BM can hold its own speed-wise against Smithy+BM. But that's completely ignoring that there will often be something else worthwhile in the BM deck, and also the kingdom engine possibilities will maybe not be so terrible.

You're also enormously overrating the risk of terminal collision on T3/T4. The risk of terminal collision on T3/T4 is only around a third. If you don't collide (two-thirds chance!), then you get to look at 6 cards from the BM deck. There are only 25 cards total in the BM, so that's a significant amount.

If you want to convince me of your position, try making an argument instead of using insults and sarcasm, since frankly that's just trolling.

Edit: Also I only now realize how much you're rigging the kingdom against BM/BM. So... there are no VP options for the engine player apart from Provinces, plus there's a decent BM+X, plus you're omitting the best village from the kingdom, plus it's assumed there's nothing worthwhile in the BM apart from Ambassador? Sure, these things will be true sometimes, but often they won't all be true.
The thing is, is it really THAT important to have double BM right away because you're betting on that your terminals don't clash, and that in the 3 cards it pulls out of 20 (i'm guessing, I think its closer to 25), you'll get a card that will make it playable vs. BM-Smithy?  It is just SO much more practical to get your second BM (if it really that necessary) on T3/T4 and open with silver or whatever). 

Also the most ridiculous card to pull out of BM is usually tournament, if opening double BM guaranteed tournament, I would say that could be interesting. 
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hobo386

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #124 on: July 18, 2012, 08:31:44 pm »
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That's another thing. Why are people hating on Smugglers all the time. I get great stuff from them. Almost always get at least one, even two if the board is full of nice things.


Cause it sucks.  I get great wins all the time from my opponents falling into the Smugglers trap.

Well, I want to believe you, because I hate Smugglers.

I'd say that Smugglers is good with Minion, Grand Market, cheap alt-VPs like Gardens, SR, Duke, and Vineyards... and just about nothing else.  This is not a hard and fast rule, but it's pretty close to the truth.

Smugglers is not nearly as bad as the worst $4s, or the worst $5s, or 'Mute/PStone, or Adventurer.  But I do think it's likely the worst $3 (though you could make good arguments for Develop, Workshop, and Chancellor- they're all pretty close).

Or cartographer, mining village, nobles, bazaar, etc.  The big thing about smugglers is that it is like mine and remodel.  You need to be able to play it just about every turn.  On a board with spice merchant or warehouse, you call pull smugglers out pretty quick and keep slapping them down.  The only problem is, you need to be sure that there's *something* your opponent is gonna buy that will let you get more money.

(For reference, I'm 0.65 effect with, -0.56 effect without, and I buy the damn thing 79.7% of the time, compared to the average of 55.8%).
« Last Edit: July 18, 2012, 08:36:43 pm by hobo386 »
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