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Author Topic: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards  (Read 65077 times)

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #75 on: July 11, 2012, 02:03:32 pm »
0

Hmm, I'm curious about one thing. Qvist, maybe you can confirm, did the user who rated Tunnel first's name start with a J and end in a 2? If so... yeah, that figures, from him ¬_¬.

I don't know if this is an insider joke, but no. I think you meant that it starts with an z, right? The user that ranked Tunnel on #1 didn't submit a user name, so the weighting on this vote isn't high either way.

Nah, it's my housemate, Joseph2302, who tends to lurk here a little and is pretty active on Iso. He's obsessed with Tunnel; he secretly knows it's not very good but he's the kind of person who'd sumbit 99% serious ratings but put Tunnel first just to troll.

I'd ask him, but he probably doesn't remember where he put it :P
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

Qvist

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #76 on: July 11, 2012, 02:21:06 pm »
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Ah, ok. I thought that this is some kind of insider joke and still I have to disagree. He tried to rank it objectively and put it on #7.

sparky5856

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #77 on: July 11, 2012, 02:22:41 pm »
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Oh why on EARTH did I put Scheme at #2 >__< It's one of my favorite cards for sure. But it's not really that useful until past the early game when you have at least SOME engine going. Steward I put at #3; I'll often open double-Steward to act as something like a Chapel. With Steward, though, they are actually quite useful past the mid-game unlike Chapel most of the time.

I put Oracle at #22. LOL I was dead wrong there X_X I'll have to experiment with that card more.

Of course my #1 was Ambassador; no surprises there.
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O

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #78 on: July 11, 2012, 03:41:25 pm »
0

I guess the $5s are fairly clear as well, and I am guessing it will and should be Witch, Mountebank, Ill-Gotten Gains, Wharf, Hunting Party. Of course, after those few it gets much trickier.

FWIW, I have the same cards in my top 5, but not in the same order.  Most importantly, I'm pretty confident that IGG should not be ahead of Wharf/HP.

Menagerie is fun. Swindler is not fun. You can still ignore menagerie 5x more frequently than you can avoid swindler.

I ignore Swindler twice as often as I ignore Menagerie.  Mind you, I still buy it 80 percent of the time.  It's still a really strong card.  But it's not an automatic purchase in the way Mountebank and Witch are: sometimes there are counters, sometimes there are just flat-out better options.  In particular, the fact that it replaces Copper with Curse rather than increasing your deck size makes it much, MUCH less essential than actual curse-givers when trashing is around, for instance.

If you buy menagerie 90% of the time...
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blueblimp

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #79 on: July 11, 2012, 05:33:10 pm »
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Black Market/Black Market as an opening blows my mind.
This seems totally reasonable in the right kingdom when there's a cheap power card in the Black Market deck. In a good kingdom for Amb, pulling Amb from the BM on T3/T4 is nearly a certain win. Even if you don't buy anything from the BM, in the common case where they don't collide, it's no worse than Silver/Silver.
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #80 on: July 11, 2012, 05:41:09 pm »
0

Black Market/Black Market as an opening blows my mind.
This seems totally reasonable in the right kingdom when there's a cheap power card in the Black Market deck. In a good kingdom for Amb, pulling Amb from the BM on T3/T4 is nearly a certain win. Even if you don't buy anything from the BM, in the common case where they don't collide, it's no worse than Silver/Silver.
If the board is weak, there is a lot of cards I'd rather find from the BM before my opponent does. Its not a very common open, no, but it shouldnt blow Fabians mind. :o
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O

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #81 on: July 11, 2012, 05:41:27 pm »
0

Black Market/Black Market as an opening blows my mind.
This seems totally reasonable in the right kingdom when there's a cheap power card in the Black Market deck. In a good kingdom for Amb, pulling Amb from the BM on T3/T4 is nearly a certain win. Even if you don't buy anything from the BM, in the common case where they don't collide, it's no worse than Silver/Silver.
If you open BM/BM and pull Ambassador out of the deck, and fishing village is not on the board.. I really don't see a winning deck here.
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Eevee

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #82 on: July 11, 2012, 05:43:46 pm »
0

Black Market/Black Market as an opening blows my mind.
This seems totally reasonable in the right kingdom when there's a cheap power card in the Black Market deck. In a good kingdom for Amb, pulling Amb from the BM on T3/T4 is nearly a certain win. Even if you don't buy anything from the BM, in the common case where they don't collide, it's no worse than Silver/Silver.
If you open BM/BM and pull Ambassador out of the deck, and fishing village is not on the board.. I really don't see a winning deck here.

What if you pull out witch or mountebank and your opponent chose the 2nd best alternative which was smithy-big money? Some boards are weak (too many villages and no trashing/power cards), some black market decks are strong.
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O

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #83 on: July 11, 2012, 05:49:21 pm »
0

Black Market/Black Market as an opening blows my mind.
This seems totally reasonable in the right kingdom when there's a cheap power card in the Black Market deck. In a good kingdom for Amb, pulling Amb from the BM on T3/T4 is nearly a certain win. Even if you don't buy anything from the BM, in the common case where they don't collide, it's no worse than Silver/Silver.
If you open BM/BM and pull Ambassador out of the deck, and fishing village is not on the board.. I really don't see a winning deck here.

What if you pull out witch or mountebank and your opponent chose the 2nd best alternative which was smithy-big money? Some boards are weak (too many villages and no trashing/power cards), some black market decks are strong.

I would expect Black Market + Black market + Witch from BM without support to be crushed by smithy-BM.
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blueblimp

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #84 on: July 11, 2012, 06:50:51 pm »
0

Black Market/Black Market as an opening blows my mind.
This seems totally reasonable in the right kingdom when there's a cheap power card in the Black Market deck. In a good kingdom for Amb, pulling Amb from the BM on T3/T4 is nearly a certain win. Even if you don't buy anything from the BM, in the common case where they don't collide, it's no worse than Silver/Silver.
If you open BM/BM and pull Ambassador out of the deck, and fishing village is not on the board.. I really don't see a winning deck here.
Isn't nearly any engine going to work, provided there's no decent trashing available (other than the Amb you got)? Then you can just spam ten curses to your opponent. Heck, if they forgo an engine, spam them with Black Markets once the good cards run out.
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ehunt

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #85 on: July 11, 2012, 09:47:46 pm »
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I put swindler over menagerie, and stand by that.

samesies. i think.
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Fabian

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #86 on: July 12, 2012, 02:32:55 am »
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Seeing someone defend a BM/BM opening blows my mind even more heh. Nice BM/BM/Ambassador/7Copper/3Estate deck there when all your dreams come true on turn 3 :( :( That's a best case scenario made in heaven for sure.

Edit: I've never really understood why people have said they consider Black Market a huge trap card, so I feel I've learned something today.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2012, 02:36:48 am by Fabian »
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #87 on: July 12, 2012, 02:48:29 am »
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Seeing someone defend a BM/BM opening blows my mind even more heh. Nice BM/BM/Ambassador/7Copper/3Estate deck there when all your dreams come true on turn 3 :( :( That's a best case scenario made in heaven for sure.

Edit: I've never really understood why people have said they consider Black Market a huge trap card, so I feel I've learned something today.

Board needs villages too ldo.

..you should play marin some and then we talk.  ;)
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ddubois

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #88 on: July 13, 2012, 05:44:24 pm »
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Maybe if the BM deck was like 6 villages, spice, KC and attacks, and the main deck was nothing but terminal +cards and terminal silvers.
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blueblimp

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #89 on: July 13, 2012, 05:50:48 pm »
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Seeing someone defend a BM/BM opening blows my mind even more heh. Nice BM/BM/Ambassador/7Copper/3Estate deck there when all your dreams come true on turn 3 :( :( That's a best case scenario made in heaven for sure.

Edit: I've never really understood why people have said they consider Black Market a huge trap card, so I feel I've learned something today.
Uh, how is BM/BM/Amb/7C/3E a bad deck? Return some coppers/estates, buy some villages, buy draw (either on the board, or there is usually some in the BM deck). Win. It's _at worst_ 2 turns slower than opening Amb if it were in the kingdom!
« Last Edit: July 13, 2012, 05:51:56 pm by blueblimp »
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Fabian

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #90 on: July 13, 2012, 07:56:39 pm »
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Seeing someone defend a BM/BM opening blows my mind even more heh. Nice BM/BM/Ambassador/7Copper/3Estate deck there when all your dreams come true on turn 3 :( :( That's a best case scenario made in heaven for sure.

Edit: I've never really understood why people have said they consider Black Market a huge trap card, so I feel I've learned something today.
Uh, how is BM/BM/Amb/7C/3E a bad deck? Return some coppers/estates, buy some villages, buy draw (either on the board, or there is usually some in the BM deck). Win. It's _at worst_ 2 turns slower than opening Amb if it were in the kingdom!

Ok, let's keep going with this magical christmas land best case dream scenario. Let's say you open BM/BM, find an Ambassador on turn 3!! and there's Village available to buy on turn 4!!! Sick magical christmas land dream scenario indeed. What's your winning chance against Big Money Ultimate? What about BM/Smithy? Let's say, since we're in magical christmas land, you're first player.

Edit: Instead of baiting much longer, I'll just point out that, even if you're ahead in this scenario (it's probably pretty easy to check with the simulator what kind of percentages we're talking about), the BM/BM opening is imo supremely super awful and a huge huge trap (a trap I didn't know existed since I assumed it was so super awful no one would ever go for it).
« Last Edit: July 13, 2012, 08:02:16 pm by Fabian »
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blueblimp

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #91 on: July 13, 2012, 08:18:43 pm »
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It's completely impossible to check this in the simulator, because the simulator is bad at playing Amb (and for that matter bad at engines in general). If you think BMU will beat an Amb-powered engine, even if that Amb is delayed to T3, you are the crazy one, not me.

Edit: I'm actually in shock here at how delusional you are. I wouldn't care except you apparently are determined on trolling me over it.

We're not even talking about the strength of BM/BM opening anymore. We're talking about: can an Amb engine beat BMU if BMU is given a 2 turn head start? And the answer is... duh! It's rated the best $3 card for a reason!
« Last Edit: July 13, 2012, 08:22:44 pm by blueblimp »
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #92 on: July 13, 2012, 10:02:48 pm »
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It's completely impossible to check this in the simulator, because the simulator is bad at playing Amb (and for that matter bad at engines in general). If you think BMU will beat an Amb-powered engine, even if that Amb is delayed to T3, you are the crazy one, not me.

Edit: I'm actually in shock here at how delusional you are. I wouldn't care except you apparently are determined on trolling me over it.

We're not even talking about the strength of BM/BM opening anymore. We're talking about: can an Amb engine beat BMU if BMU is given a 2 turn head start? And the answer is... duh! It's rated the best $3 card for a reason!

Its not just if it has a 2 turn head start.  It's also if it can win with the addition of 2 weak terminals and no engine on the board with pieces only coming from the BM deck...
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A man on a mission.

blueblimp

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #93 on: July 13, 2012, 10:28:57 pm »
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It's completely impossible to check this in the simulator, because the simulator is bad at playing Amb (and for that matter bad at engines in general). If you think BMU will beat an Amb-powered engine, even if that Amb is delayed to T3, you are the crazy one, not me.

Edit: I'm actually in shock here at how delusional you are. I wouldn't care except you apparently are determined on trolling me over it.

We're not even talking about the strength of BM/BM opening anymore. We're talking about: can an Amb engine beat BMU if BMU is given a 2 turn head start? And the answer is... duh! It's rated the best $3 card for a reason!

Its not just if it has a 2 turn head start.  It's also if it can win with the addition of 2 weak terminals and no engine on the board with pieces only coming from the BM deck...
When did we start assuming there was no engine on the board? The whole point is that there is an engine. Even outside the BM, Amb is often not worth it without an engine. Obviously, if you wouldn't buy Amb outside the BM, you should not buy BM in order to try to get it.
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hobo386

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #94 on: July 13, 2012, 11:45:23 pm »
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I'm gonna be agreeing with the fabulous Fabian on this one. BM/BM is just plain silly.  I actually like having the card in my deck, as I tend to perform better at building 20 card engines than doing a simple FV/Torturer chain (I mean I can execute it properly, but so can anyone else.  Therefore it's just a question of shuffle luck.)  However, if there is an engine on the board, opening BM/BM hoping for that lucky turn 3/4 ambassador will put you waaay to far behind in building the engine.  By the time you start handing them estates and coppers, they will have that engine up and running.  And that's not the only problem. You got the ambassador? Great.  Now you have no +draw, no +actions, and a card that's going to hurt your economy rather than help it.  Turn 5 you end up drawing BM/BM/Amb/copper/copper.  Well you could give him copper, but at that point your opponent is likely already hitting 5 and 6 for those strong actions the chain relies on.  And if he isn't, that means he already has a trasher that will make ambassador irrelevant.  Well, there's also the option that he's running a strategy where it won't matter (like HT/Gardens).  Oh, and your turns 6 and 7 will suck now.  And in almost any situation you really need something from the BM deck, it's better to grab a support card than another BM.  A young witch that will cycle your deck and add curses slowing your opponent down (which helps if your opponent wants the BM card too).  A wishing well or a courtyard that will get your BM faster as well as the BMed card.  A swindler that turns his BM cards into something useless.  Something like that.  Sure, there may be a board where BM/BM is a good opening.  But certainly not in a situation where ambassador is good.


(Either way I'd much rather take something like masquerade, tournament, tactician, tunnel, vault, watchtower, menagerie, scheme, mountebanke, or goons from the BM deck.  These cards are all something that you can add to the deck midgame and immediately make your deck better.  If you are using BM, you need quick cards to make up for the time you lost.)
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O

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #95 on: July 13, 2012, 11:52:18 pm »
+2

Blueblump sorry but you're just so wrong on this one.

"I'm going to clog my deck with 2x terminals for the reshuffle so that I can buy a third terminal on t3/t4 if I get very lucky. After clogging my deck with 3 terminals that help my economy significantly less than silver, I'll get rid of coppers/estates 2/2. Then I will build an engine that could not have been made by ignoring BM/ambassador"...

I'm thinking smithy BM will crush this without fishing village support or something similar outside of the bm deck, with MORE key cards within the BM deck.
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hobo386

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #96 on: July 14, 2012, 12:10:06 am »
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And O comes in to paraphrase what I said in a more eloquent way.  8)
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clb

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #97 on: July 14, 2012, 12:57:28 am »
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Simple is elegant!  :)
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blueblimp

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #98 on: July 14, 2012, 01:14:42 am »
+1

Blueblump sorry but you're just so wrong on this one.

"I'm going to clog my deck with 2x terminals for the reshuffle so that I can buy a third terminal on t3/t4 if I get very lucky. After clogging my deck with 3 terminals that help my economy significantly less than silver, I'll get rid of coppers/estates 2/2. Then I will build an engine that could not have been made by ignoring BM/ambassador"...

I'm thinking smithy BM will crush this without fishing village support or something similar outside of the bm deck, with MORE key cards within the BM deck.
Just ran a quick solo game with opening BM/BM, buying an Amb T3, then buying no actions except Village/Smithy. This is about as bad an engine as it gets. By the end of turn 13, it has already given the opposing player 3 coppers and 2 estates. Starting turn 14 (when unattacked Smithy BM typically hits 4 provinces), it begins sending over a curse every turn and buying a province every turn. Of course that will break down after a bit of greening, but that's not really the point, since this is a terrible engine anyway. (Log for what it's worth: http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201207/13/game-20120713-221636-d0a2bf4f.html.)

So, even with an awful engine, a T3 Amb after BM/BM can hold its own speed-wise against Smithy+BM. But that's completely ignoring that there will often be something else worthwhile in the BM deck, and also the kingdom engine possibilities will maybe not be so terrible.

You're also enormously overrating the risk of terminal collision on T3/T4. The risk of terminal collision on T3/T4 is only around a third. If you don't collide (two-thirds chance!), then you get to look at 6 cards from the BM deck. There are only 25 cards total in the BM, so that's a significant amount.

If you want to convince me of your position, try making an argument instead of using insults and sarcasm, since frankly that's just trolling.

Edit: Also I only now realize how much you're rigging the kingdom against BM/BM. So... there are no VP options for the engine player apart from Provinces, plus there's a decent BM+X, plus you're omitting the best village from the kingdom, plus it's assumed there's nothing worthwhile in the BM apart from Ambassador? Sure, these things will be true sometimes, but often they won't all be true.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2012, 01:27:10 am by blueblimp »
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Eevee

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #99 on: July 14, 2012, 01:53:31 am »
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I am so hoping that one level 50 dude would chime in.  ;D
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