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Author Topic: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards  (Read 38189 times)

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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #50 on: July 10, 2012, 01:46:39 pm »
+1

This is a pretty reasonable list. I have a few gripes, but I think the differences are understandable.

1. Lookout is missing, which I mentioned in the first half.

2. I think Warehouse is a little low. It basically combos with everything. It allows engines to go smoother, pulls combos together even when you can't trash, and cycles to let you play key actions more often. For me it's neck-and-neck with menagerie. It's much better than Steward, which is just a trashing card, and needs an actual engine to be present to be of any use. I guess it's not that far from fifth, so meh.

3. I also think Village is too high, but it's hard to get people to agree on rankings of villages. If there's a way to build an engine, having a village is really important, though often more than one type of village shows up, making each one individually not that important. Plus there are a lot of times you just can't make an engine, in which case Village does nothing.

4. I think Tunnel is overrated. I think it's a major trap card. When it first came out, someone made a list of all the cards that discard something, which is quite a long list, but just having one of those cards doesn't quite make a good combo. In addition to discarding cards, you also need to be able to draw cards, both to have a reasonable shot to be able to discard the Tunnel for benefit, as well as to be able to make up for the fact that your deck has an extra victory card instead of a Silver or other useful $3-$4 card, and that you're delaying your economy a lot (you have to shuffle twice after buying the Tunnel to see any money at all, and probably at least 3 times to get out of the red). But if you buy it early to get it in before a lot of shuffles, you run the large risk of not drawing it with your discarder, gimping your early game even more! I feel like the only really strong 2-card combos are with Warehouse, Young Witch, Vault, and Embassy, since these draw multiple cards before discarding. Other combos are weak and/or need additional support, since you have to get the draw and discard separately, which makes it even slower to set up. On the other hand, Tunnel still gets points for just being an alternative VP card, which makes a difference in late game situations, so there's that...

Overall, the the list came out pretty good, and there's not much to complain about.
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ChocophileBenj

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #51 on: July 10, 2012, 03:07:01 pm »
0

Let's analyze part 2 of the list :
Oracle : It's a fun and good card, but you can easily find better, so okay for the rank.
Village : "the best $3 card from the base set" : no wonder when you see the 3 other ones ^^. It's nice having it here, as a barrier between middle and good cards.
Watchtower : Powerful in some games, useless in others... but often nice to have, at least for the top-decking power, and it is still a drawer, so why not ?
Tunnel : THIS is the card I would have ranked much higher if I completed my vote. In fact : 2 VPs for $3 seems really, really strong ! And the reaction part ? Okay, in some boards it is pointless, and even a single spy doesn't make it relevant. But when there's only one card that lets you discard at least two cards at once (Secret Chamber/Young witch...), it becomes a tunnel rush, right ? And even without, as a cheap victory card, its pile is easy to empty !
Scheme : Really useful, I think it has its right place
Warehouse : we are going close to the top, so... yeah, there are not many drawers at $3, and this filter is most of the times nice. You know when to buy it... but I don't think it's that strong as sometimes you have not-so-bad cards in hand, and you draw not-so-better. I don't know how I should rank it.
Swindler : of course it is strong ! Of course it is unfair ! And when I play it I often say "sorry" but still buys more ! So no wonder this is here !
Steward : It is strong like chapel is strong, as being a fast trasher, and recyclable. But the two other effects make it worse than many other cards, according to me. So maybe wouldn't it be in my top 5.
Menagerie : This is the card that makes you expect your opponent to play militia/g.ship ... I love it in those games. But only in those, as is it too much luck-dependent otherwise. Plus it is weak with other good drawers, especially wharf that makes you draw two surprise cards. (and I remember having bad surprises from wharves)
Fishing villages : the best $3 for me, as it is a good buy in every game, far better than ambassador.
Masquerade : Very fun to play, but only in 2 players, and there are some games it isn't that interesting if you can trash by yourself. But if you've reducing handsize attacks, if you know before drawing two cards which one you'll pass... what's the matter ? No one ^^ deserves good rank, though !
Ambassador : Sorry to tell it, but I think it leads to boring games : "I return two estates, one gets to you" "thanks, here is another for you" etc... where are trashers, with those estates/coppers not disturbing anymore ? I'd rather buy steward/chapel !!! But it is truly a "strong" card...

I'm finished. I don't know if I will do those personal analyses for every ranking, but I was pretty goodly/badly surprised by some results for this.
See you soon !
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chwhite

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #52 on: July 10, 2012, 04:11:37 pm »
0

A lot fewer disagreements up here, near the top.  In particular, I am glad to see Menagerie claim its rightful spot ahead of Steward.  I don't think I can quite put Menagerie above Fishing Village- there are too many terminal draw cards for that to be a good idea- but I admit I've been tempted.  A few cards that are a tiiiny bit too high (Village, Oracle, Steward, Scheme) but nothing here that's way out of line in either direction.  Mostly I just think Steward should be at the bottom of the Warehouse-Swindler-Steward scrum, and that there should be a place for Lookout and Loan in the top group- non-terminal trashing is really good!

FWIW, my rankings:

1. Ambassador
2. Masquerade
3. Fishing Village
4. Menagerie
5. Warehouse
6. Swindler
7. Steward
8. Tunnel
9. Watchtower
10. Lookout
11. Scheme
12. Loan
13. Village
14. Oracle
15. Shanty Town
16. Oasis
17. Trade Route
18. Fortune Teller
19. Wishing Well
20. Great Hall
21. Black Market
22. Woodcutter
23. Chancellor
24. Workshop
25. Develop
26. Smugglers

If I re-did this list, I'd consider bumping Black Market up a slot or two, but definitely not above Trade Route.  And everything between Tunnel and Loan is more or less equal in my eyes.  Everything else I stand by.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2012, 04:15:28 pm by chwhite »
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olneyce

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #53 on: July 10, 2012, 05:41:03 pm »
0

Fishing villages : the best $3 for me, as it is a good buy in every game, far better than ambassador.
Masquerade : Very fun to play, but only in 2 players, and there are some games it isn't that interesting if you can trash by yourself. But if you've reducing handsize attacks, if you know before drawing two cards which one you'll pass... what's the matter ? No one ^^ deserves good rank, though !
Ambassador : Sorry to tell it, but I think it leads to boring games : "I return two estates, one gets to you" "thanks, here is another for you" etc... where are trashers, with those estates/coppers not disturbing anymore ? I'd rather buy steward/chapel !!! But it is truly a "strong" card...
It seems like you're putting what you enjoy above what is actually objectively best.

I personally LOVE Ambassador games, because they reward strategy a great deal.  But setting all that aside...

Ambassador is much, much better than Fishing Village.  Ambassador is very often better than Chapel, too.  I've won a few games in the last couple days going for Ambassador against a Chapel-ing opponent.  If there is a reasonably cheap village and/or a potentially useful $2 card on the board, Ambassador is FAR superior to Chapel. 

The net shift in cards with Chapel is one more - if you actually use it to trash all 4 cards.  But with Ambassador you can swing 3 cards AND buy something. Or, with a village, you can swing just as many cards as Chapel by removing two and sending two to your opponent.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #54 on: July 10, 2012, 07:04:54 pm »
0

Ambassador is much, much better than Fishing Village.  Ambassador is very often better than Chapel, too.  I've won a few games in the last couple days going for Ambassador against a Chapel-ing opponent.  If there is a reasonably cheap village and/or a potentially useful $2 card on the board, Ambassador is FAR superior to Chapel. 

The net shift in cards with Chapel is one more - if you actually use it to trash all 4 cards.  But with Ambassador you can swing 3 cards AND buy something. Or, with a village, you can swing just as many cards as Chapel by removing two and sending two to your opponent.
And more importantly than that, you can keep attacking with Ambassador into the mid- and late-game, when other cards you would get primarily for trashing would typically be dead weight.
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brokoli

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #55 on: July 10, 2012, 07:37:05 pm »
0

I ranked tunnel very high, and still think it's a powerful card. In fact, I rank all victory cards better than most, because hey, victory cards are necessary to win the vast majority of the time. So, only for the 2VP tunnel deserve at least the 5th spot IMO.
The top 5 cards of my list (If I remember correctly) :

1- Masquerade
2- Menagerie
3- Tunnel
4- Fishing village
5- Ambassador
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Tables

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #56 on: July 11, 2012, 01:04:11 am »
0

Hmm, I'm curious about one thing. Qvist, maybe you can confirm, did the user who rated Tunnel first's name start with a J and end in a 2? If so... yeah, that figures, from him _.

Digression aside, I was actually expecting to see Ambassador and Masquerade a little lower, despite me still putting Ambassador first. While Ambassador is great for enabling engines, and not joining it is fatal reasonably often, there's a lot of cases where it's just not worth going for; big money, decks with good sifting, many cases of alternate VPs on the board etc.. And Masquerade... eh. I put it at #3 below Fishing Village, which I personally think is accurate: Fishing Village is generally still okay even on boards that don't suit it, and thanks to the massive action count it gives you, it can make you very likely to not draw cards dead, while Masquerade... I dunno, it does three things - one is the crux of the card and often doesn't even help (passing), and the other two it does badly (+2 cards trash a card). Doing two things badly is still very good, but it just doesn't seem better than Fishing Villages. More often ignorable etc. But this is comparing apples with Oranges, ultimately, it's how I evaluated them.

I also had Swindler higher, and think it really deserves higher. When your opponent gets one or two Swindlers, you generally can't run any kind of reliable engine, as you lose components far too quickly.
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Robz888

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #57 on: July 11, 2012, 02:09:38 am »
+1

I'm surprised to hear people disagree about the top 4, because in my mind they are so firmly and absolutely #1 Ambassador, close #2 Masquerade, little less close #3 Fishing Village, right on its heels #4 Menagerie. The next 3 are Swindler, Steward, and Warehouse, in some order. And then Tunnel.
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chwhite

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #58 on: July 11, 2012, 03:04:28 am »
+1

I'm surprised to hear people disagree about the top 4, because in my mind they are so firmly and absolutely #1 Ambassador, close #2 Masquerade, little less close #3 Fishing Village, right on its heels #4 Menagerie. The next 3 are Swindler, Steward, and Warehouse, in some order. And then Tunnel.

Agreed, with the caveat that Tunnel is not quite as certain as the top seven (though I still put it at #8).  The best $3 cards are just so, so much easier to rank than any other stretch at any other price point (barring a couple specific outliers like Chapel, Adventurer, and Familiar). 
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #59 on: July 11, 2012, 03:11:39 am »
+1

I'm surprised to hear people disagree about the top 4, because in my mind they are so firmly and absolutely #1 Ambassador, close #2 Masquerade, little less close #3 Fishing Village, right on its heels #4 Menagerie. The next 3 are Swindler, Steward, and Warehouse, in some order. And then Tunnel.

I'm not at all surprised. There's always going to be arguments about that stuff. I don't think there will be a consensus at the top of any of the lists. Ambassador is probably better than Masquerade, because it has the ability to be a dominating card on engine boards, but Masquerade has the property that it's almost never bad. It works in any kind of deck. People always rank differently depending on how they value frequency of use versus power when it's good.

And I think there is a case that Warehouse is better than Menagerie by a similar type of argument. Warehouse is almost always good. Menagerie is only good when there is trashing. But in Menagerie decks it's the star, while Warehouse and Fishing Village are support cards. So you can rank Menagerie as high as 3 and as low as 5, depending on how you feel about that kind of stuff. And heck, Swindler might even get into the conversation just because of the dramatic effect it has on the game.
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O

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #60 on: July 11, 2012, 03:12:30 am »
0

I put swindler over menagerie, and stand by that.
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Robz888

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #61 on: July 11, 2012, 03:13:01 am »
0

I'm surprised to hear people disagree about the top 4, because in my mind they are so firmly and absolutely #1 Ambassador, close #2 Masquerade, little less close #3 Fishing Village, right on its heels #4 Menagerie. The next 3 are Swindler, Steward, and Warehouse, in some order. And then Tunnel.

Agreed, with the caveat that Tunnel is not quite as certain as the top seven (though I still put it at #8).  The best $3 cards are just so, so much easier to rank than any other stretch at any other price point (barring a couple specific outliers like Chapel, Adventurer, and Familiar).

Absolutely. And that's very interesting that the $3 cards are like that. The $4 cards are far less certain for what's top 5 material: we know Sea Hag and Jack belong up there, but it's much more debatable. (I agreed completely with theory's revised ranking of the $4s, FWIW.) Even the top $2 cards are harder to rank, with Courtyard, Hamlet, Lighthouse, and Fool's Gold all making good claims.

I guess the $5s are fairly clear as well, and I am guessing it will and should be Witch, Mountebank, Ill-Gotten Gains, Wharf, Hunting Party. Of course, after those few it gets much trickier.

Anyway, the $3 cards are certainly the most straightforward price point.
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Eevee

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #62 on: July 11, 2012, 03:14:36 am »
+1

I put swindler over menagerie, and stand by that.
This is crazy talk from a level 45 but whatever :))

no but seriously WHY, menagerie is so good.
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O

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #63 on: July 11, 2012, 03:17:55 am »
0

I put swindler over menagerie, and stand by that.
This is crazy talk from a level 45 but whatever :))

no but seriously WHY, menagerie is so good.

Menagerie is fun. Swindler is not fun. You can still ignore menagerie 5x more frequently than you can avoid swindler.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #64 on: July 11, 2012, 03:18:05 am »
0

I put swindler over menagerie, and stand by that.
This is crazy talk from a level 45 but whatever :))

no but seriously WHY, menagerie is so good.

Menagerie is good like Hunting Party is good. It's a great source of +cards and a primary building-block of your engine. Swindler is good like IGG is good. It turns the game on its head.
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Eevee

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #65 on: July 11, 2012, 03:24:06 am »
0

I put swindler over menagerie, and stand by that.
This is crazy talk from a level 45 but whatever :))

no but seriously WHY, menagerie is so good.

Menagerie is fun. Swindler is not fun. You can still ignore menagerie 5x more frequently than you can avoid swindler.

.. and when menagerie is good, its GOOD. Swindler is just okay strong.

.. and is certainly not a game changer in the magnitude IGG is.

But O, I certainly agree swindler is important more often, its just that (imo) menagerie is so so much better when it really shines, its clearly better than swindler. We cant really define better though so this is as far as we are going to get.
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O

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #66 on: July 11, 2012, 03:26:21 am »
0

Swindler is not OK strong, its curser-strong. Swindler is the terminal I most often open double of. I don't open ambassador-ambassador, I choose amb/silver. But I open double swindler.
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Eevee

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #67 on: July 11, 2012, 03:35:10 am »
0

Swindler is not OK strong, its curser-strong. Swindler is the terminal I most often open double of. I don't open ambassador-ambassador, I choose amb/silver. But I open double swindler.
Swindler being annoying might cloud my judgement some here (and to be fair, I usually veto it unless there is something even more annoying on the board), but black market - black market is my 3rd favourite double terminal open (uhm ignoring workshop rushes) but steward for example is still lot better than bm is obviously. And I'm not saying swindler isnt a power 3, menagerie is just even more so.
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Fabian

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #68 on: July 11, 2012, 03:56:27 am »
0

Black Market/Black Market as an opening blows my mind.

I put Menagerie at #5 and Swindler at #6 fwiw. It's pretty possible Steward didn't deserve the #4 spot, but oh well. Close enough.

Swindler, Ambassador and Workshop are probably the only terminals I've ever doubled up on in the opening, fwiw.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2012, 03:58:11 am by Fabian »
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Qvist

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #69 on: July 11, 2012, 04:04:00 am »
0

Hmm, I'm curious about one thing. Qvist, maybe you can confirm, did the user who rated Tunnel first's name start with a J and end in a 2? If so... yeah, that figures, from him _.

I don't know if this is an insider joke, but no. I think you meant that it starts with an z, right? The user that ranked Tunnel on #1 didn't submit a user name, so the weighting on this vote isn't high either way.

yudantaiteki

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #70 on: July 11, 2012, 04:42:57 am »
0

I was happy to see Oracle's big jump -- I always though it was a fine card and I was surprised to see it so low on the last ranking list.  I thought there must be something I just wasn't seeing about how bad the card really was.

Menagerie is a card I really need to use more.  Somehow I can't get over lumping it in with Harvest as a card I don't want to buy unless I'm specifically trying to buy a variety of different cards.  From reading threads like this I can see that this is flawed thinking, but somehow I just can't "feel" that it's a good card.
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brokoli

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #71 on: July 11, 2012, 06:30:41 am »
0

Swindler is good like IGG is good. It turns the game on its head.

 :o This is not true at all !
I have won so many games ignoring swindler. Sometimes by three points because my opponent's swindler gave me a duchy. Sometimes because he trashed a province and accelerated the game. Sometimes because he trashed a curse and replaced it by a copper (because the curse pile was emptied). Sometimes because he trashed a peddler. Sometimes because he only hits estates and other cards that doesn't matter.
I really think swindler is the most overrated card of the game. And while IGG is the key card of most games, swindler is only a little addition.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #72 on: July 11, 2012, 11:36:34 am »
0

Swindler is good like IGG is good. It turns the game on its head.

 :o This is not true at all !
I have won so many games ignoring swindler. Sometimes by three points because my opponent's swindler gave me a duchy. Sometimes because he trashed a province and accelerated the game. Sometimes because he trashed a curse and replaced it by a copper (because the curse pile was emptied). Sometimes because he trashed a peddler. Sometimes because he only hits estates and other cards that doesn't matter.
I really think swindler is the most overrated card of the game. And while IGG is the key card of most games, swindler is only a little addition.

To be clear, I don't think Swindler is as good as IGG. I mean it's "good" in a different way than Menagerie is good. It makes the game behave very differently. IGG does this by putting Curses in your deck immediately and pushing piles to empty faster while Swindler does it by potentially making your deck look nothing like what you bought. And even when it doesn't do anything insane, it's one of the best openers -- a sub-$4 semi-curser that is as good as Silver for your economy. Is that strong enough to make it a top 5 $3 card? I don't know. I don't have it there, but I can see a reasonable argument for it.
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chwhite

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #73 on: July 11, 2012, 01:09:39 pm »
0

I guess the $5s are fairly clear as well, and I am guessing it will and should be Witch, Mountebank, Ill-Gotten Gains, Wharf, Hunting Party. Of course, after those few it gets much trickier.

FWIW, I have the same cards in my top 5, but not in the same order.  Most importantly, I'm pretty confident that IGG should not be ahead of Wharf/HP.

Menagerie is fun. Swindler is not fun. You can still ignore menagerie 5x more frequently than you can avoid swindler.

I ignore Swindler twice as often as I ignore Menagerie.  Mind you, I still buy it 80 percent of the time.  It's still a really strong card.  But it's not an automatic purchase in the way Mountebank and Witch are: sometimes there are counters, sometimes there are just flat-out better options.  In particular, the fact that it replaces Copper with Curse rather than increasing your deck size makes it much, MUCH less essential than actual curse-givers when trashing is around, for instance.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2012, 01:11:48 pm by chwhite »
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brokoli

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #74 on: July 11, 2012, 01:48:44 pm »
0

Oh, and I don't find warehouse that strong. It's a sweet card, but I would rarely buy it in Big money games and when there are handsize reducers, and these cases are very common.
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