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Author Topic: I will try to post a game here every day.  (Read 46841 times)

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Tombolo

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #125 on: August 08, 2012, 02:31:04 am »
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This was one of the worst beatings I've taken in a long time:
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201208/07/game-20120807-232825-25a4b583.html

No real questions here.  Apparently I went wrong when I didn't run Scrying/BM >_>
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Morgrim7

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #126 on: August 08, 2012, 04:09:42 am »
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Ugh, I hate those games.
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Tombolo

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #127 on: August 08, 2012, 11:01:06 am »
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http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201208/08/game-20120808-075119-0e68f0a5.html

What I went for: Forge/Peddler
What he went for: Tournament/Hamlet

I don't understand what I did wrong here- I expected to get Peddlers quickly thanks to support from Hamlet, Tournament, and Festival, and I suppose I did get 8 of them in relatively short order.  My plan was then to Forge them all into Provinces, but I only managed that once. (I could've done more later, but by then we were too close to end and I was too far behind)  I had Trading Post to help me thin my deck quickly, I had decent cycling, I had all the components to get Peddlers...but I got outspeeded badly somewhere along the line.

-Was Trading Post the right open?  I didn't need Festival's +Action and I figured early trashing would work well, but then again, it was a terminal in a Peddler rush, and Festival's +Buy couldn't have hurt.
-Was there some issue with Peddler->Forge?  That's usually a good strat, right?  And there was good support, right?  Is Tournament just that good here?
-What do I buy at 3 here?  I went Scheme every time to try to re-use my power cards, but Warehouse might've been a bigger help given how little Scheme wound up doing for me.
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mgallop

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #128 on: August 08, 2012, 02:30:32 pm »
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-Trading post opening definitely seems right, since trading post openings are awesome, however, with that opening, I think I use the trashing and bonus silvers to rush a province and win a tournament, since it makes it easy to connect and gives you money. Unfortunately, you got unlucky with TP missing the shuffle and he got 5 coppers to hit one on t3. I do think if I see a 5-2 opening with trading post, mirroring seems great because you're just gonna be faster and more consistent. Festival seems alright, but TP seems better since after 1 play you have the same number of dead draws (terminal/treasure/vp) for peddler as if you buy something else.
-I think issue with peddler forge is that its kind of slow, especially to get forge, and focuses a lot on dicking around, which is usually a losing strategy with Tournament out. By the time you got your first forge, he has 2 provinces, and the requirements to double province with forge + money are pretty steep. Mostly tournament just is that good.
-Getting 1-2 schemes seems fine. If you're peddler rushing, I might keep buying hamlets at 3 though since each one gets another peddler once you're hitting 4 actions.

Seems like a combination of bad luck (with your opener) and your opponents strategy just being strong.
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Tombolo

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #129 on: August 10, 2012, 02:22:00 am »
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I won this game fairly handily, but I feel it could've been done a lot prettier.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201208/09/game-20120809-230725-c78279d4.html

What I went for: Sea Hag/Possession/Peddler
What he went for: Pearl Divers/Sea Hag/Presumably Duke

Normally I open Masq/Sea Hag without a second thought, but Masq in a Possession game scares the willies outta me.  I wasn't sure whether to go for Possession or not, as it's a pretty weak Possession board otherwise, so I kinda messed around without committing to anything until he bought Masq.  I tried to rush Possession immediately after that, which...isn't really possible in this board, but I tried.  I picked up Woodcutter for +Buy for both Possession (force of habit with Potion cards, even when I don't expect to have tons of money left over after I get them) and Peddler, and decided Smugglers weren't really worth it.  After all that hemming and hawwing, I only managed to buy one Possession and use it one.  It was a pretty uninspiring possession turn, too. (No, I don't know why I gained Silver over Peddler with Ironworks.)  I went for Provinces just in time to keep him from ending game in the lead, and then he had to play with Duchies while I buffed out my lead and ended things.  It probably would've been a formidable Duke rush, but luckily I was a bit faster.  I'm not sure how, but I was.

-Was Possession worth it here?  I did not in fact pull off a Possession Masquerade, and the rest of the board sucks for Possession.
-How about Masquerade?  He got some nice trashing in and dodged the Possession, but somehow I still beat him on speed.
-Would Duke/Duchy have been a better target than Province?  Woodcutter, Possession, Sea Hag, Scout, and Smugglers all seem to nudge things in that direction.
-How much did I really need that Woodcutter?  Peddler was nice but non-essential, I didn't have the economy to double up on a Possession buying turn, and there wasn't much else that wanted the +Buy.
-I don't understand his Pearl Divers.  Am I missing something?
-Would Scout have been worth it here if I went Duke/Duchy and he went Possession?  Duke gives you a lot of crap to filter, and Scout is pretty much a dead card if you get Possessed...but is that enough to justify a buy with no hybrid victory cards?  It gets almost as much hate as Chancellor :(
« Last Edit: August 10, 2012, 02:24:41 am by Tombolo »
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ftl

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #130 on: August 10, 2012, 02:34:57 am »
+1

Possession was definitely not worth it. Didn't you only get to play it once? It was an ugly game, possession wasn't going to give you anything good. It got you a peddler and a silver, whereas you could have had a province.

you can't gain peddler with ironworks, btw, it doesn't cost less until the buy phase

I would guess the right thing to do here is like duke-duchy with masq. If he goes duke/duchy, then he'll never put together the coin for a 6P possession and you'll be safe from masq. If he builds up to 6+ hands, then, well, whats' he going to do with your $3-$5 hands, buy himself more duchies? I guess he could steal one or two if he got lucky, but by that time your deck would be fat. Or thats' the hope. A lucky possession can of course mess you up, if he draws it with your duchies for a steal-duchy buy-duchy turn. But I bet it would only happen like once, Peddlers/Curses would run out and you could run out duchies or dukes.

I'd probably open Masq-Ironworks, Ironworks to get silvers and masq to get rid of SH's curses, then get duchies, silvers. If you had too many curses, get a second masq. Sure, why not Ironworks a scout at some point - but only if you had $5 in hand with the IW already!

He probably got Pearl Divers to get Peddlers, but it didn't work so well.
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DG

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #131 on: August 10, 2012, 07:21:56 am »
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Opening with masquerade would have changed the deck composition for both players so you need to consider possession in terms of different decks to the ones you played. Even so possession seems like as marginal card so masquerade would have been useful. Duchies are generally the best target in curse ridden games anyway and dukes just improve that. That would suit smugglers and silver and leave no time for woodcutters, pearl divers, and peddlers.
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Tombolo

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #132 on: August 11, 2012, 02:10:30 am »
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I'm having more and more trouble finding games where I see major learning opportunities, but I have been coming up with some more generalized questions to ask.

-How many Ambassadors is too many?  I will almost always buy at least one (usually as an opening) and will frequently go to two if my opponent does or I feel it's necessary.  I've bought 3 or even 4 before when my opponent stepped up the Amb war, but is that getting too silly?
-When (if ever) is it a good idea to open with two terminals?
-Is Village (or equivalent) ever a good open?  I'll buy it once in a while in situations where I anticipate slingshotting quickly past $3 and then loading up on terminals with no +Buy.
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qmech

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #133 on: August 11, 2012, 08:15:52 am »
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I don't remember any games where I bought more than two Ambassadors and went on to win.  I sometimes do it in despair, but it's probably better to see if you can change direction (Duchy rush perhaps).  Two is fine: I like Amb/Silver/Amb generally, but there are also fans of Amb/Amb openings.

The other common double terminal opening is Swindler/Swindler, which is a strong attack early on.  I like this one, whereas I don't like double Ambassador.  Chapel/anything is reasonable, as if they collide you expect to Chapel 3 cards anyway; this changes slightly if there are good 2's available, which might tip you towards Silver instead.  I can't think of any other common examples.

Fishing Village is usually fine to open with.  Worker's Village is great with Peddler, and you might want normal Villages with Peddler if there's also a source of Buy.  Shanty Town is a special case, as you sometimes want that for the Lab effect (in that sense it's unusual because you're more likely to want it if your other buy is not a terminal).

Scout is pretty much a dead card if you get Possessed...but is that enough to justify a buy with no hybrid victory cards?  It gets almost as much hate as Chancellor :(

Chancellor is better than Scout!  Very occasionally you want to open Chancellor, but Scout is rarely more than a consolation buy.
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DG

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #134 on: August 11, 2012, 09:20:47 am »
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Quote
Is Village (or equivalent) ever a good open?  I'll buy it once in a while in situations where I anticipate slingshotting quickly past $3 and then loading up on terminals with no +Buy.

There are some decks where silver isn't great and deck development is better than accumulating 5 cost cards . This deck development might involve a card like remake, remodel, or steward that is often happy to have something cycling through the deck until it is needed rather than a silver taking up space in hand.
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chwhite

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #135 on: August 12, 2012, 12:55:23 am »
+1

I don't remember any games where I bought more than two Ambassadors and went on to win.  I sometimes do it in despair, but it's probably better to see if you can change direction (Duchy rush perhaps).  Two is fine: I like Amb/Silver/Amb generally, but there are also fans of Amb/Amb openings.

The other common double terminal opening is Swindler/Swindler, which is a strong attack early on.  I like this one, whereas I don't like double Ambassador.  Chapel/anything is reasonable, as if they collide you expect to Chapel 3 cards anyway; this changes slightly if there are good 2's available, which might tip you towards Silver instead.  I can't think of any other common examples.

Fishing Village is usually fine to open with.  Worker's Village is great with Peddler, and you might want normal Villages with Peddler if there's also a source of Buy.  Shanty Town is a special case, as you sometimes want that for the Lab effect (in that sense it's unusual because you're more likely to want it if your other buy is not a terminal).

Scout is pretty much a dead card if you get Possessed...but is that enough to justify a buy with no hybrid victory cards?  It gets almost as much hate as Chancellor :(

Chancellor is better than Scout!  Very occasionally you want to open Chancellor, but Scout is rarely more than a consolation buy.

I've picked up a third Amb and won, but yeah it's rare and usually a desperation play.

I'll generalize your statement about double terminals to say that, while Swindler, Chapel, and Ambassador are certainly the cards most likely to lead to a double terminal opening (I do like Amb/Amb most of the time FWIW), it's something worth considering whenever there is good attack or trashing.  Witch/Moat is a fine opening, for instance.

The $5 Villages (well, not City) are also sometimes a good buy if you are lucky enough to open 5/2, since like Fishing they provide +Coin.  Hamlet is also good with Peddler, discard synergy, and 5/2 openings.  Native Village can be a good open with certain combos, Bridge the most famous.  Some people like opening Mining Village to trash it as a slingshot to $6, but I don't.  In general, most every Village save the original one and Walled can be worth opening at times (and I've heard people have success with Walled Village/Ambassador).

Chancellor deserves (and gets) much much less hate than Scout around here.  It's a decent opener every once in awhile, especially with Familiar, Stash, and really any board where you don't mind spending a terminal slot on Silver with an uncertain cycling benefit- generally if everything else is really weak, or you expect to be drowning in +Action.  I think Chancellor is pretty underrated, actually, though I wouldn't call it good of course.  The only good thing I can say about Scout is that it hurts you less than Thief, and it's nice to have with Scrying Pools sometimes.
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Tombolo

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #136 on: August 12, 2012, 01:15:03 am »
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http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201208/11/game-20120811-073740-5e101dec.html

What I went for: Mount/Gardens
What he went for: Mount/Tournament

I thought I was in for a rough time when he opened 5/2, but thanks to some quick Baron action, I was able to get two Mountebanks in by turn 4, and only took 6 curses.  I was clearly gunning for Gardens, and he clearly for Provinces.  I tried to use Talisman, Baron, and Outpost to up my card count quickly, but was only moderately successful.  I was more successful in rushing Tournaments- I only got 5 since I had to fight over them, but all of them missed his lone Province.  Once Tournaments and Curses drained on the same turn, I rushed Gardens, and my opponent wasn't QUITE ready to deal with the green rush.  He tried to fight me, but I was able to take 6 Gardens and end game before he managed another Province.


-What should I prefer at 5+ here?  I feel like 2 Mountebanks and an Outpost was about optimal, but after that...Gold?  Province?  Garden?
-Would Island have helped here?  I kinda wanted them but didn't know how the point counter would handle Island/Gardens, and I didn't wanna lose the game by experimenting to find out.
-Was Gardens even a good idea?  I figured that Baron and Talisman (and Mount and Outpost, to lesser extents) were all decent reasons to go for it, but Tournament was an awkward third pile to push- if it had gone on longer, he would've been able to block with Provinces and I would've been in deep doo-doo.
-How badly do I wanna use my +Buy on Copper or Baron's Estate gain?
-Should I have greened earlier?
-Was Talisman a bad buy, or did I play it poorly?  Or did I just get unlucky?
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eHalcyon

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #137 on: August 12, 2012, 02:04:39 am »
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I think Gardens was a good idea, though I'm not entirely sure.  Tournament is strong, but Followers isn't as relevant on a board with Mountebank.

If Gardens was your goal from the start, you actually don't mind Mountebank so much since the cards you gain from it actually help you!  Maybe you want to avoid the Curse anyway -- I'm not sure what is optimal.  But turns 16 and 19, why did you discard a Curse?  For sure you want that Copper.  Copper is not bad at all when your goal is Gardens.  You definitely want to use your Baron +Buy and Estate gain.  Talisman is cool too.  Some pawns for +Buy would also be nice.

I don't think you needed to rush Tournament at all.  Grab the Gardens, pile out Estates (with Baron, maybe) and Pawns using Talisman.  Probably don't even need to dip into Mountebank.
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dondon151

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #138 on: August 12, 2012, 04:56:42 am »
+1

I don't think you needed to rush Tournament at all.  Grab the Gardens, pile out Estates (with Baron, maybe) and Pawns using Talisman.  Probably don't even need to dip into Mountebank.

I would definitely get Moutebank as the Gardens player here, because an opponent with a healthy deck and a Tournament stack is going to absolutely destroy the Gardens player (especially with Island as a source of alt VP). Remember that most Gardens rushes aren't all that fast without really good support...

Conversely, the Province player probably doesn't want Mountebank, because it doesn't hurt the Gardens player all that much.
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Tombolo

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #139 on: August 13, 2012, 12:36:27 pm »
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http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201208/13/game-20120813-085105-2e59356f.html

What I went for: GM/Develop/City
What he went for: Develop/Monument/City

Another one of those "I won but I feel it was suboptimal" games.  Part of my issue here is that I took too long to actually settle on a strategy.  Venture/FG seemed like a winner, but so did GM/Develop.  I WAS initially planning on running both until I realized that Venture and GM don't get along so well without a better trasher than Develop.  I also picked up a turn 2 WV for almost no reason at all, although I intended to push Monument harder than I did.  I had visions of Developing into GM, which is the main reason I got it over Silver, but never actually pulled it off.  I also wasn't sure what to do with FG- whether to try to hit it with Venture, Develop into Silver, hope to turn into Gold, use as a copper substitute for GM, or ignore it.  I wound up being all wishy-washy and only buying a couple, which didn't do me much good.  I was hoping Develop or FG would run out and activate my Cities, but eventually GM drained instead.  I was barely able to hold onto my lead, but it worked out somehow.

-Was GM a trap here?  I am pretty sure I over-value it, and this wasn't a GREAT board for it.
-Should I have gone Venture with this strategy?  Venture/FG is probably strong with good +Buy to be had, but it didn't seem worth it if I was going for GM....and Cities were bound to activate at least partially at some point.
-How do you like Develop here?  I usually ignore it, but with no other 3's and GM on the board, it seemed decent.  My opponent really liked them.
-What should have been my approach to FG?  Develop fodder?  GM fodder?  Venture combo?  Use the reaction?  Push harder?  Ignore even with $2?
-What's the best open for this strategy?  Pretty dang sure WV wasn't it.
-Would FG/WV have worked as an open if I had intended to rush FG?
-What should've been my Develop priority?  Kill the Copper?  Estate/FG -> Silver?  Silver -> Monument/FG?  4's -> Silver/City?  City -> GM?
« Last Edit: August 13, 2012, 12:39:15 pm by Tombolo »
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eHalcyon

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #140 on: August 13, 2012, 12:58:58 pm »
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I don't think you needed to rush Tournament at all.  Grab the Gardens, pile out Estates (with Baron, maybe) and Pawns using Talisman.  Probably don't even need to dip into Mountebank.

I would definitely get Moutebank as the Gardens player here, because an opponent with a healthy deck and a Tournament stack is going to absolutely destroy the Gardens player (especially with Island as a source of alt VP). Remember that most Gardens rushes aren't all that fast without really good support...

Conversely, the Province player probably doesn't want Mountebank, because it doesn't hurt the Gardens player all that much.

Sure, but isn't the support pretty good in this case?  Baron and Pawn for +Buy (where Baron can gain Estate ALONG with the +Buy), Talisman for gaining.  I imagine it could go pretty quick.  I suppose I'm just underestimating the unblocked Tournament stack here.
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DG

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #141 on: August 13, 2012, 01:31:40 pm »
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This kingdom can be played out a various levels. Firstly there's some basic big money strategies that will beat messing about with develop. Secondly there's some fool's gold strategies that will probably beat the basic treasure strategies, especially with worker's village, noble brigand, venture, grand markets, or even navigator as support. Thirdly there's both players taking fool's gold and that might bring cities into play and then all sorts of strategies become possible, although I'd guess the game will move on too quickly for anything fancy to be done.
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dondon151

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #142 on: August 13, 2012, 08:56:48 pm »
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Sure, but isn't the support pretty good in this case?  Baron and Pawn for +Buy (where Baron can gain Estate ALONG with the +Buy), Talisman for gaining.  I imagine it could go pretty quick.  I suppose I'm just underestimating the unblocked Tournament stack here.

Fair point. Baron, Pawn, and Talisman are great for getting more cards, but they're not quite so good at emptying out the piles that you need - still pretty strong, though (I got 54 points solitaire in 19 turns). In retrospect the kingdom that Tombolo posted didn't have much engine potential, so I'd actually expect that if the opponent goes Mountebank, a Gardens strategy that invests more heavily in Barons and Estates will win. Opponent Mountebanks will also make Curses a more attractive target for the third pile.
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Tombolo

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #143 on: August 17, 2012, 02:17:29 pm »
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More general questions:

-How does one go about setting up a Golden Deck, and how exactly is it supposed to work?  I made a half-hearted attempt the other day, but couldn't resist the urge to keep buying cards.  Better cards, admittedly, but I was trashing no more than two a turn.
-Is Lighthouse/Lighthouse a good opening against good attacks?  Somebody opened that on a board with...Witch, I think it was?...and continued to buy them throughout the game.  It threw me off so badly that I bought Witch anyway and generally flailed uselessly all game.  At what amount of Lighthouse/Moat/other defense do you give up on attacks?
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gman314

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #144 on: August 17, 2012, 02:26:17 pm »
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I would probably only open lighthouse/lighthouse in 3 or 4 player. But, Lighthouse can stop attacks like Sea Hag dead. Witch on the other hand benefits you when you play it, so it's worth buying on the off-chance that a curse sneaks through.
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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #145 on: August 17, 2012, 02:30:50 pm »
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Half-hearted golden decks tend to be a bad idea, since they usually just end up choking on green. And you really need some pretty fast trashing to make it work. Chapel is really the only card that I will really think golden deck on. Although sometimes I just stumble into one with other cards.

Anyway with chapel, priority 1 is to trash everything. Open Bishop/Chapel. You'll need to get probably 2 silver. And then 2 gold.   And it's totally ok to just take 1 turn to trash a card and then buy nothing in order to get down to 5 cards.


As for lighthouse/lighthouse open, it isn't a bad open. Depends on the kingdom. If it's a really strong attack, you might want to open attack/lighthouse. But like if you get a 4/3 split against a 5/2 mountebank open, lighthouse/lighthouse sounds great.
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ftl

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #146 on: August 17, 2012, 04:42:52 pm »
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More general questions:

-How does one go about setting up a Golden Deck, and how exactly is it supposed to work?  I made a half-hearted attempt the other day, but couldn't resist the urge to keep buying cards.  Better cards, admittedly, but I was trashing no more than two a turn.
-Is Lighthouse/Lighthouse a good opening against good attacks?  Somebody opened that on a board with...Witch, I think it was?...and continued to buy them throughout the game.  It threw me off so badly that I bought Witch anyway and generally flailed uselessly all game.  At what amount of Lighthouse/Moat/other defense do you give up on attacks?

Golden Deck:
1) Open Bishop/Chapel.
2) Hope your chapel doesn't miss your first shuffle, because if it does, you're pretty screwed.
3) Chapel everything. Everything.

Golden Deck doesn't work if you have Bishop as your only trasher, and it's pretty tough even with something like Steward.
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eHalcyon

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #147 on: August 17, 2012, 04:43:37 pm »
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Golden Deck doesn't work if you have Bishop as your only trasher, and it's pretty tough even with something like Steward.

Sometimes you can get away with Steward if you have good shuffle luck, or if your opponent is helping you with his own Bishop.
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zahlman

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #148 on: August 17, 2012, 08:53:34 pm »
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Golden Deck:
1) Open Bishop/Chapel.
2) Hope your chapel doesn't miss your first shuffle, because if it does, you're pretty screwed.
3) Chapel everything. Everything.

You kinda do need to remember to buy Silver while you still have at least 3 Copper, and keep at least 1 to buy your second (unless you also have FG available, I guess). But yeah, you want really aggressive Chapelling for this.

I've played some other games where I started out racking up points randomly with Bishop and then found an opportunity to get into Golden Deck configuration. You really need to think it through, though.

(P.S. I guess it doesn't really need to be said, but as long as we're talking about cards that get a huge boost from Chapel - Governor/Chapel makes something golden-ish even if you're keeping your Provinces and not reducing to 5 cards. And with Governor, you don't actually need to worry about over-trashing the Copper as long as you get at least 1 Governor somewhere. You can gain Gold and use 2 of them to buy the next Governor.)
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Rabid

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #149 on: August 18, 2012, 07:33:55 am »
+1

Half-hearted golden decks tend to be a bad idea, since they usually just end up choking on green. And you really need some pretty fast trashing to make it work. Chapel is really the only card that I will really think golden deck on. Although sometimes I just stumble into one with other cards.

Anyway with chapel, priority 1 is to trash everything. Open Bishop/Chapel. You'll need to get probably 2 silver. And then 2 gold.   And it's totally ok to just take 1 turn to trash a card and then buy nothing in order to get down to 5 cards.


As for lighthouse/lighthouse open, it isn't a bad open. Depends on the kingdom. If it's a really strong attack, you might want to open attack/lighthouse. But like if you get a 4/3 split against a 5/2 mountebank open, lighthouse/lighthouse sounds great.

Depending on the draws you can stay on Bishop / silver / silver / gold / prov.
You don't really need to get a 2nd gold.
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