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Author Topic: I will try to post a game here every day.  (Read 43096 times)

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Tombolo

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #200 on: October 31, 2012, 06:57:55 pm »
+1

It's weird that games I win seem to more frequently make me wonder how I could've improved.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201210/31/game-20121031-082148-a65ad922.html

What I went for: Gardens/Pawn/Governor
What he went for: Scrying/Governor/YW

I wasn't sure that Gardens was a good idea here, but decided to try it anyway.  I picked up a Jack just because, grabbed Governors when I could, picked up a Talisman, and rushed Wishing Well and Pawn before piling out on Gardens.  My opponent had a nifty little Governor/Scrying Pool deck, but couldn't get it off the ground in time to respond effectively, and I won.

-As usual, I wonder if Gardens was even that good a call here.  There's some support, but not GREAT support, and Governor is frequently pretty good.
-I picked up a Province with an $8, no +buy, Talisman hand, mainly to deny it to my opponent.  When is or isn't this a good idea for a Gardens deck?
-Does Jack even help enough here to be worth the buy?  The Silver gain was nice.
-Talisman's a good idea, right?  But did I want more?
-Should I have rushed Pawns before Wishing Wells?  I usually try to get the more expensive things I want early when given the opportunity, but I really could've used the +Buy, and the handsize decrease for JoaT.
-Copper is usually good as a consolation prize for this style of Gardens deck, right?
-Was Governor worth the opportunity cost, or no?  The gain was nice, but I didn't use the remodel much and I could've just been rushing piles harder instead.
-...How do you play this game from my opponent's position?  His Governors helped me out a ton, but I'm really not sure what he should've done instead. (other than probably skipping YW since I piledrove the Bane)  Fight me for Gardens with a suboptimal deck?  Skip Governor and try for Provinces without it?  Spam Governors and damn the torpedoes?  Rush Duchies?
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dondon151

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #201 on: November 02, 2012, 10:50:31 pm »
+1

Lots of decent Gardens enablers here. Duchess, Pawn, Jack, NB, Talisman can all be a part of gaining multiple cards. Governor is not so good for Gardens because you don't benefit nearly as much from any of Governor's options. Opponent going Governor is also dangerous for him because his Gold gains give you Silvers, you can remodel $3 -> Gardens if they trash early, and you have a lot of $4 -> $5 options for endgame Duchy gaining.

I don't think that SP/Governor is actually a good combo, even with Pawn as a remodeling target for Copper. Getting Governors conflicts with getting SPs, and Golds conflict with SPs. Honestly, I feel like that you don't even need to Gardens rush on this board if the opponent goes Governor; throw in a YW or two and you can probably slog your way to victory with Gardens and Duchies. It really, highly depends on what your opponent does, though, especially with YW and a decent bane in the equation.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2012, 10:52:49 pm by dondon151 »
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Tombolo

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #202 on: November 03, 2012, 10:11:50 pm »
0

I actually had another game I was gonna post, but then I found this one really interesting!

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201211/03/game-20121103-181327-668b179e.html

What I went for: Chapel/Mountebank/Wharf
What he went for: Gardens/Village/Wharf

I tell ya, I thought I had it made when I pulled a Mount/Chapel opening, and got downright cocky when my opponent not only ignored Chapel but got a Gardens turn 3.  Needless to say, I proceeded to scratch out a win by a lucky break in endgame.  I picked up a Wharf on a lucky turn 4, figuring it'd be handy to have later even if it clashed now.  My opponent did what he could with Trade Route and Jack, but couldn't quite match my trashing power.  I didn't think much of his engine, and he did indeed have a lot of trouble ending the game, but his Gardens racked up the points quicker than I had expected, and Chapel failed to be an instant "I win" button for my own deck.  He stayed neck and neck with me for most of the game, and I actually thought he had the win, but Expand got me through a humorously long endgame with a win I may or may not have deserved.

-....What did I miss that made Gardens good here?  Village/Wharf isn't that bad, I guess, and it's resilient to my Mount....but I don't see enough support that I would go for it, especially against a Chapel deck, unless I just figured I'd lose a mirror match with 4/3.
-I didn't want Wharf that early, did I?  It seemed like a waste to buy Silver at 5 early on, but it probably would've worked better for that opening, huh?
-....Heck, what terminals DID I want?  Wharf didn't do me that much good, and neither did Expand until my last turn, and Mountebank kinda just played into his Gardens and TR.  Jack and TR would've been redundant with Chapel, so.....might I have actually wanted Sabo or something?  Or even just Chapel/BM?
-Gardens for denial....good or bad idea?  Heck, with as long as the endgame dragged out, they were decent to have for me anyway!
-Did my opponent want Woodcutter?
« Last Edit: November 03, 2012, 10:14:13 pm by Tombolo »
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thirtyseven

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #203 on: November 04, 2012, 01:18:32 am »
0

-....What did I miss that made Gardens good here?  Village/Wharf isn't that bad, I guess, and it's resilient to my Mount....but I don't see enough support that I would go for it, especially against a Chapel deck, unless I just figured I'd lose a mirror match with 4/3.
-Did my opponent want Woodcutter?

An opponent's Mountebank and a Woodcutter are both reasons to seriously consider going Gardens.

Quote
-I didn't want Wharf that early, did I?  It seemed like a waste to buy Silver at 5 early on, but it probably would've worked better for that opening, huh?
-....Heck, what terminals DID I want?  Wharf didn't do me that much good, and neither did Expand until my last turn, and Mountebank kinda just played into his Gardens and TR.  Jack and TR would've been redundant with Chapel, so.....might I have actually wanted Sabo or something?  Or even just Chapel/BM?

After the opening Mountebank, which was probably a good move since you didn't know he was going Gardens (although Wharf might have been a better opening???), I think Village/Wharf/BM is the way to go, if you're not going Gardens. IDK which strategy is better, but denying some Gardens might help you. Also, an Expand late-game will help turn those Wharves into Provinces.
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dondon151

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #204 on: November 04, 2012, 04:31:30 am »
+1

You'll probably want a Jack to rebuild your economy while building a Village-Wharf engine. Buying Village and Wharf doesn't help your buying power at all, and the Jack has the small benefit of letting you eventually trash your Chapel. You were trashing very non-aggressively because you were probably worried about overtrashing your economy: the solution to that is to just get a Jack. Village-Wharf is more than enough to draw untrimmed decks, so you can afford to have tons of Silvers.

Going into Village-Wharf and then adding a couple of Saboteurs should easily steamroll an opponent who can only gain a limited number of cards per turn costing $3 or more.

EDIT: or you can just end the game quickly. http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201211/04/game-20121104-014819-85ba068b.html
« Last Edit: November 04, 2012, 04:52:37 am by dondon151 »
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Tombolo

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #205 on: November 08, 2012, 07:25:08 pm »
0

I think this was my first time trying to run double Tac in a serious game!

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201211/08/game-20121108-131519-dec08926.html

What I went for: BM/Tac
What he went for: University/Bazaar/BM

I am sure there is a lot more I could have done to streamline this deck, but I had a lot of fun with it anyway.  I realized I needed +Action to run BM/Tac, so I picked up University...I didn't initially see Bazaar, but I'm not sure it would have been better.  I picked up Salvager to trim, and luckily pulled Golem (and later Tunnel!) out of the black market.  After a while, I realized that I could feasibly run Double Tac, and so I picked up an extra Tac and BM in an attempt to do so.  My buying power was through the roof, and I picked up the win.

-Should I have gone Vault at some point?  Is that better or worse for double Tac?  I picked one up late but never used it.
-I didn't need Salvager, did I?  What about Woodcutter?
-Any other way I could've trimmed or optimized?  I didn't really know exactly what I was doing.
-....Double Tac IS a good strategy when you can run it, right?
-Was it worth it going Potion for Uni and Phil Stone?
-Anything I should've done differently with the BM pulls?
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dondon151

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #206 on: November 08, 2012, 08:13:02 pm »
+1

I am sure there is a lot more I could have done to streamline this deck, but I had a lot of fun with it anyway.  I realized I needed +Action to run BM/Tac, so I picked up University...I didn't initially see Bazaar, but I'm not sure it would have been better.

Bazaar is better in double Tactician decks because it gives virtual +$, draws a card, and doesn't decrease handsize. University is actually pretty useless except for picking up more Bazaars and Vaults, but in a textbook double Tactician deck, you should not pick up University.

-Should I have gone Vault at some point?  Is that better or worse for double Tac?  I picked one up late but never used it.

Vault is the best double Tactician enabler, even better than BM.

-I didn't need Salvager, did I?  What about Woodcutter?

You don't need Salvager, but double Tactician decks fall apart after a couple of Provinces without some form of draw, sifting, or trashing to even out the increasing deck size.

-Was it worth it going Potion for Uni and Phil Stone?

No. Not PStone. University would have been decent to gain Bazaars, though.

Here's a sample solitaire game that I played using this kingdom: [lost the link]

It's not played too optimally because I didn't entirely have the best plan in mind until halfway through the game, but this is more or less a draw engine supported by double Tactician, rather than the other way around. The only way to ensure consistency on this board is to draw cards with Bazaar, Nobles, and Apothecary when the deck gets big. A cool side effect of this is that I get a lot of $14+ turns to buy Province + Nobles/Bazaar.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2012, 12:10:49 am by dondon151 »
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eHalcyon

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #207 on: November 08, 2012, 11:54:38 pm »
0

dondon, looks like you linked Tombolo's game again instead of yours.
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dondon151

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #208 on: November 09, 2012, 12:12:36 am »
0

Well, I closed my browser and lost the link. Basically I empty Provinces in 18 turns while grabbing 4 Nobles and 2 Duchies. Opened Potion/Woodcutter for Apothecary, picked up 2 Vaults, 2 Tacticians, and Bazaars and Nobles when I could at about equal ratios.
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Tombolo

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #209 on: November 10, 2012, 08:31:06 pm »
0

Just a quick real-life one.  3-player game.  Tunnel, Urchin, Rats, Procession, Bridge, Fortress, Cultist, Torturer, Cartographer, Goons, with Colonies because we just like Colony games.  :P

We played it twice, and both times the girl won in an incredibly low-scoring game.  The other guy and I had nice decks both times, but took waaayyyyyy too long setting them up, and both times I came in a reasonably close second by nature of having a buncha Tunnels and maybe a Duchy or a few VP chips.

It's one of those boards where I literally want to run every card.  I was trying to base my deck around Goons both times, but never got streamlined enough to play it more than a couple times.  The first time I tried to support with Bridge- I ideally wanted to stack them with Goons and get better buys and pick up more engine pieces.....never played them together.  Second time I focused more on Rats/Mercenary, and was just about to reap the rewards of the trimming when game ended.  Both times I got lots of Tunnels to discard, Fortress for +Action, Cartographer to discard more Tunnels and deal with all the junk, and Procession and Cultist just because they're good. (Procession ideally would have helped with Rats in the second game after the pile drained.  Other guy went for Rats as well that game.)  The girl went for Torturer, and I kept underestimating how strong it was when chained with Discard to X.

What the heck do you go for on this board?  I feel like maybe just going for Tunnel/Goons/Carto/BM might have worked better than either of my ideas.  My hands weren't big enough to work well with Rats, and conditions weren't quite good enough for good Goons, Cultist, or Torturer chains, either.  How about Procession or Fortress?  Or Urchin/Mercenary if I committed to it better?  Do you prefer Cultist or Torturer or neither?  How do I Dark Ages?

As an unrelated side note, I seem to have somehow hit level 22 on iso!  I'm playing less often than ever, and not really winning more than my usual 50% either, so I'm kinda confused about that, but hey, maybe this thread is helping me!  Thanks guys  :D
« Last Edit: November 10, 2012, 08:32:39 pm by Tombolo »
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Tombolo

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #210 on: November 12, 2012, 11:37:04 am »
0

No love for no logs?  Alrighty, how about this one?

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201211/12/game-20121112-082900-9bc51448.html

What I went for: IW/Gardens
What he went for: Hoard

THEY LAUGHED AT MY IW/GARDENS IDEA....and then beat it.  Granted, support on the board wasn't what it could have been (my initial idea was to pile out on Cartographer...) but....what went wrong?  I had too many terminals, but that's how you play IW/Gardens, right?  He asked me what I was doing about halfway through, then when I told him, he picked up a couple Gardens just to mess with me I think.  Worked out well for him.

-Should I have avoided IW/Gardens here, or maybe not gone IW so hard?  I had no +Action to spam IW as terminals, and no cantrips to drain with IW either.  I knew going in that it wasn't an optimal IW/Gardens board, but I thought I could make it work.
-Not that I really did much draining of either, but would Cartographer or Estate been the better idea to try to rush?  ....Or just trying to rebuild with Silver or something and going for something better?
-I hit 6 once.  Did I want Nobles or Hoard?  (Or Gold or Cart)  I feel either one would have been immensely helpful.
-I probably should have preferred Copper at 2, huh?  I had way too many terminals once there were no more IW to gain, and somehow I don't think loading up on Herbalist and Courtyard (or HT) was the solution!
-...Did I even WANT Herbalist?  +Buy looked nice on paper, and I guess it wasn't bad, but....ehhhhhh.
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shark_bait

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #211 on: November 12, 2012, 12:03:21 pm »
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The rush can work but you also played it poorly.  Herbalist is a mistake here, in an optimized rush, you will not have an extra action to play it.  The order of which you obtain your cards is also wrong.  In a rush like this you want to stagger your gaining of IW and Gardens.  When to switch from gaining IW to Gardens depends on whether your opponent is joining you in the rush.  A simulation challenge was run around 8 months ago and almost all the participants put in bot for the IW/SR rush.  There is a lot of discussion in that thread which is extremely relevant.  To summarize briefly, you want to stagger so that hands of multiple IW, you can gain another IW and then a Garden.  If you get all the IW first, you can't do that.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1896.msg30046#msg30046


All that being said, Colony is on the board with pseudo trashing in Cartographer.  Going for that will beat a rush at least 90% of the time I would think.
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dondon151

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #212 on: November 12, 2012, 12:28:12 pm »
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To summarize briefly, you want to stagger so that hands of multiple IW, you can gain another IW and then a Garden.  If you get all the IW first, you can't do that.

Eh, not really. The thing is that you need maybe around 7-8 Ironworks in your deck before you can consistently get hands where you need to gain IW with extra IW. If you green too early, then the IW will spread out, you'll be gaining Gardens instead of IW, and the 3-pile will be slower.

I think the key to winning with an IW/Gardens rush is to pile out on one of the $2 actions, not Estates. Estates pile out slowly because you can't gain more than 2 per turn. Conversely, you can gain up to 5 Courtyards per turn, and your opponent grabbed a couple as well. If you get lucky, you can 3-pile in 13 turns, which should be competitive with a more general strategy: http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201211/12/game-20121112-091308-34fb50a2.html

But in general, I think it's a good idea to ignore IW/Gardens on Colony boards. A 13-14 turn game is not very common (I got mostly 15 turns), and 15 turns is probably enough for your opponent to outscore you with Colonies and Provinces. Maybe.

EDIT: http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201211/12/game-20121112-093247-8ec55b0d.html
Okay, so I can't say that this is optimal, but I had 29 VP after 13 turns, 39 VP after 14 turns, and 49 VP after 15 turns. So an IW/Gardens rush really needs to end the game fast. But done properly, it probably has a fair chance.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2012, 12:35:44 pm by dondon151 »
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shark_bait

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #213 on: November 12, 2012, 01:10:54 pm »
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Eh, not really. The thing is that you need maybe around 7-8 Ironworks in your deck before you can consistently get hands where you need to gain IW with extra IW. If you green too early, then the IW will spread out, you'll be gaining Gardens instead of IW, and the 3-pile will be slower.

I think the key to winning with an IW/Gardens rush is to pile out on one of the $2 actions, not Estates. Estates pile out slowly because you can't gain more than 2 per turn. Conversely, you can gain up to 5 Courtyards per turn, and your opponent grabbed a couple as well. If you get lucky, you can 3-pile in 13 turns, which should be competitive with a more general strategy: http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201211/12/game-20121112-091308-34fb50a2.html

In a mirror match, you can't get 7-8 IW.  If you do, your opponent will have almost all the Gardens.

In regard to Estates, my mind was stuck in Silk Road land where it is essential to obtain the Estates. 
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eHalcyon

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #214 on: November 12, 2012, 02:46:42 pm »
0

Just a quick real-life one.  3-player game.  Tunnel, Urchin, Rats, Procession, Bridge, Fortress, Cultist, Torturer, Cartographer, Goons, with Colonies because we just like Colony games.  :P

We played it twice, and both times the girl won in an incredibly low-scoring game.  The other guy and I had nice decks both times, but took waaayyyyyy too long setting them up, and both times I came in a reasonably close second by nature of having a buncha Tunnels and maybe a Duchy or a few VP chips.

It's one of those boards where I literally want to run every card.  I was trying to base my deck around Goons both times, but never got streamlined enough to play it more than a couple times.  The first time I tried to support with Bridge- I ideally wanted to stack them with Goons and get better buys and pick up more engine pieces.....never played them together.  Second time I focused more on Rats/Mercenary, and was just about to reap the rewards of the trimming when game ended.  Both times I got lots of Tunnels to discard, Fortress for +Action, Cartographer to discard more Tunnels and deal with all the junk, and Procession and Cultist just because they're good. (Procession ideally would have helped with Rats in the second game after the pile drained.  Other guy went for Rats as well that game.)  The girl went for Torturer, and I kept underestimating how strong it was when chained with Discard to X.

What the heck do you go for on this board?  I feel like maybe just going for Tunnel/Goons/Carto/BM might have worked better than either of my ideas.  My hands weren't big enough to work well with Rats, and conditions weren't quite good enough for good Goons, Cultist, or Torturer chains, either.  How about Procession or Fortress?  Or Urchin/Mercenary if I committed to it better?  Do you prefer Cultist or Torturer or neither?  How do I Dark Ages?

As an unrelated side note, I seem to have somehow hit level 22 on iso!  I'm playing less often than ever, and not really winning more than my usual 50% either, so I'm kinda confused about that, but hey, maybe this thread is helping me!  Thanks guys  :D

It was 3 player?  Not quite sure how that would work out in the end.  But in 2p I would skip Tunnel and Bridge and focus on Goons and Fortress, maybe with Cultist or Torturer.  I am actually thinking Cultist here, because it can chain with itself for more draw without wasting the actions you want to save for Goons.  Then again, Torturer's +3 Cards is way better.  But there is also Procession on the board, which can help set up for the Goons megaturn with Fortress+Cultist.  Torturer is brutal in 3p though... so maybe go for that lest you be the one eating the repeated discards.

Maybe pick up an Urchin or two to get trashing with Mercenary.

Since it's a Colony game, Gold isn't THAT great.  And since it's a Colony game, you should have enough time to set up the Goons megaturn.  All the other attacks slow things down too (especially in 3p) so that's more time to get going.

But yeah, I wouldn't worry about Bridge because I want to play more Goons instead.
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dondon151

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #215 on: November 13, 2012, 10:31:47 am »
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In a mirror match, you can't get 7-8 IW.  If you do, your opponent will have almost all the Gardens.

But it's not a mirror match. In the game that Tombolo linked, he was almost uncontested on the Gardens (and clearly the opponent didn't think much about getting them, either). So getting 7-8 IW would have been optimal.
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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #216 on: November 13, 2012, 01:31:11 pm »
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Yes, but he gained all 10 of them before hitting the Gardens.  So as you said, getting 7-8 would certainly be a good way to start.
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Tombolo

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #217 on: November 15, 2012, 05:13:32 pm »
+1

Makes sense!

I've had two people recognize me from the thread.  I'm going to start putting "Dominion celebrity" on my resume now!  I feel bad, though, because it's been a few days since I've had a game I wanted to post (well, there was a Chancellor/Stash game where my opponent gave me some advice after killing me on the mirror match) so I'll post something from the backlog!  ....If I can remember anything I wanted to ask.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201211/03/game-20121103-202913-99f6cf17.html

What I went for: Scrying/Vineyard
What he went for: Scrying/Vineyard

As soon as I saw this board, I resigned myself to the loss.  My friend here always beats me with Scrying Pool and Vineyard, so since I couldn't veto both of them I decided to fight fire with fire.  I got a nice 5/2 split and opened Market over Wharf for some odd reason.  I knew I needed copious +Buy to make things work, so I grabbed Wharf and Trade Route in the following turns.  I grabbed a Potion and started loading up on Menageries to pump up the potion cards....and never really looked back, grabbing the win somehow.

-How....did I win?  Shuffle luck?
-Wharf or Market open?  KC was the only +Action and Market gave me money, but.....it's WHARF.  On a board where I need buys.
-Anything else that would have beaten the Scrying/Vineyard rush?
-Did I really need that Trade Route?  Would Lookout have been better?  Worse?
-The only treasure I bought was that one Potion.  That's okay, right?
-How much did I want KC?  I kept drawing my deck, which is nice, but did I really need THAT much power?

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DStu

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #218 on: November 15, 2012, 05:26:01 pm »
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-How....did I win?  Shuffle luck?
5/2 vs 4/3 is a thing here I would say.  Your final deck looks better for me though. 3KC vs 1KC. 4 Market 1 Wharf vs 2 Market 0 Wharf. 0 Silver vs 2 Silver.
Trade Route is right here, you want to trash. Trashes better than Lookout, especially when not much trash is left.  Of course, especially the Silvers are partially due to 5/2 vs. 4/3.

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-Wharf or Market open?  KC was the only +Action and Market gave me money, but.....it's WHARF.  On a board where I need buys.
I think I would have taken the Wharf.
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-Anything else that would have beaten the Scrying/Vineyard rush?
There is KC on the board and there are 3 strong Cantrips.  So you can ignore Provinces entierly, that means to win on Provinces you must get all 8 of them.  No chance I would say.

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-Did I really need that Trade Route?  Would Lookout have been better?  Worse?
-The only treasure I bought was that one Potion.  That's okay, right?
see above. Maybe a second Potion to win the split on VY.

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-How much did I want KC?  I kept drawing my deck, which is nice, but did I really need THAT much power?
What do you want to buy with your $ otherwise? If you can afford it, it's usually better than buying another Market or Wharf or Menangerie, as long as you have actions to pair with the KC.
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() | (_) ^/

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #219 on: November 15, 2012, 05:26:57 pm »
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Makes sense!

I've had two people recognize me from the thread.  I'm going to start putting "Dominion celebrity" on my resume now!  I feel bad, though, because it's been a few days since I've had a game I wanted to post (well, there was a Chancellor/Stash game where my opponent gave me some advice after killing me on the mirror match) so I'll post something from the backlog!  ....If I can remember anything I wanted to ask.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201211/03/game-20121103-202913-99f6cf17.html

What I went for: Scrying/Vineyard
What he went for: Scrying/Vineyard

As soon as I saw this board, I resigned myself to the loss.  My friend here always beats me with Scrying Pool and Vineyard, so since I couldn't veto both of them I decided to fight fire with fire.  I got a nice 5/2 split and opened Market over Wharf for some odd reason.  I knew I needed copious +Buy to make things work, so I grabbed Wharf and Trade Route in the following turns.  I grabbed a Potion and started loading up on Menageries to pump up the potion cards....and never really looked back, grabbing the win somehow.

-How....did I win?  Shuffle luck?
-Wharf or Market open?  KC was the only +Action and Market gave me money, but.....it's WHARF.  On a board where I need buys.
-Anything else that would have beaten the Scrying/Vineyard rush?
-Did I really need that Trade Route?  Would Lookout have been better?  Worse?
-The only treasure I bought was that one Potion.  That's okay, right?
-How much did I want KC?  I kept drawing my deck, which is nice, but did I really need THAT much power?

The ol' Chancellor-Stash, eh?  Two cards who (until Dark Ages) only got played when they were with with each other (most of the time) in mid-to-high-tier play.

For your SP-Vineyard match, I understand your dilemma regarding Wharf or Market.  Normally, I think SP likes cantrips over terminal drawers, especially in the absence of villages.  However, on this board there is KC.  Assuming you're going to get KCs, I'm thinking KC-Wharf baby.  With KC-Wharf, you don't have to be afraid of buying treasures (don't spam them, though), since you're going to draw past them and have +buys to use them.

Trade route isn't bad when there is desirable alt-vp around.  I like it better than Lookout, which is generally terrible.  Either way, I like light trashing in conjunction with SP.

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zahlman

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #220 on: November 15, 2012, 06:53:21 pm »
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Open Wharf, because it gets you started up quicker, and because by the time you're drawing a bunch of Wharves with SP, you'll have KCs and they won't be dead. Get 2 or 3 before switching to Markets IMHO. Markets will be better later (because you can draw your deck anyway and KC-Market is an extra 3 coins), but it's not like Wharf becomes a liability.

As for Lookout, I think it's fine in general as long as you know what you'll be doing with it later - and really think twice about getting more than one. Trade Route is terminal and won't get you coins until someone buys something, and you're pretty much passing your turn if you trash an estate then buy the first estate with $2 early to power it up... so Lookout starts out looking better, without something like GH or Island on board. Vineyard... okay, that'll be extra money for TR later, but it's not a reason to open with TR IMO.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2012, 06:56:30 pm by zahlman »
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Tombolo

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #221 on: November 15, 2012, 09:29:08 pm »
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I was looking at Trade Route for the +Buy more than the money, although I guess Buy is less of a problem once I start firing Markets and Wharves.
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dondon151

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #222 on: November 15, 2012, 10:28:03 pm »
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I would skip SP entirely on that board. Once you manage a KC-Wharf, you will be rolling in 11 card starting hands for the rest of the game.

If you somehow lose the Vineyards split, you can supplement the points with Provinces pretty easily.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2012, 10:29:16 pm by dondon151 »
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RisingJaguar

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #223 on: November 16, 2012, 08:41:41 am »
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To add to the 5/2 - 4/3 split here: I think normally 4/3 is better because you do want to open potion/something here (probably trade route as it has MUCH better future use than lookout).  However, menagerie, king's court, and even wharf to some extent (if you went mass KC) provides superior drawing already.  The player with 4/3 has to either sacrifice early potion or early actions in order to reach higher dollars quickly.  Opening TR (or lookout)/potion is not a success to all the power $5/7 cards as you can see in your opponent end deck. 

Second potion is most definitely needed, but it needs to be delayed a little bit.  Since there are so many +buys floating around in your deck, that extra potion is literally equal to an extra vineyard, as opposed to other games where you're debating between $5P vineyard or 'normal' card.  Superior drawing and +buys makes this a must do. 

Timing is tough, but quick look, T11 looks perfect with $4 and future turns looking like most of the deck is drawn, but that's hindsight.  It is tougher to decide in game.  It's similar to a duke/duchy mirror where duchy (vineyards) is more important than dukes (actions) in score.  A little different since actions provide benefits to you.  Once those actions don't really benefit as much (so you're already drawing out your deck), then shift gears.

I don't think KC-Wharf can compete, because there are just too many cheap ways to draw cards and gain points.  I think KC-Wharf needs to pick up too many silvers along the way that it can't compete in either gaining more vineyards, or gaining more actions.  Also there's no strong $4 terminal that would really help boost early economy AND KC loves to spam (smithy is only the first, i'm thinking more monument like). 
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dondon151

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #224 on: November 16, 2012, 01:49:07 pm »
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I disagree. KC-Wharf draws huge amounts of $, snowballing you into more KCs and Markets, which gives you the money to buy more actions, and so on...

I don't think it's right to view this game as purely Vineyards given the power cards in the kingdom. You need 18 Actions to make Vineyards worth the equivalent of Provinces. That's not actually a lot, but in a competitive game, you won't get Vineyards to be worth much more than 6 VP, so Provinces are still an important consideration. And when a good KC-Wharf engine can generate $16+, or even $24+ per turn, then the SP player can't just hope to win the Vineyards split 5-3 and win the game.
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