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[Young Nick]

I haven't read all of the discussion, and I did not submit a list, but I have a feeling that as a community, we underrate Herbalist. I mean, it's not THAT great, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was better with BM than we assumed. Being able to get an extra play of your Gold in a reshuffle, especially late game, seems like it would a huge benefit. It is one of those cards that I think needs experimenting with and seems more useful than just about any of the other bottom-tier $2 cards.

[ehunt]

my top five agree with the list. towards the bottom, lots of underrating. i have moat and duchess higher than most people (although who the hell put moat at 3?)

everyone who has said that no game depends on duchess has almost surely lost a game for failure to notice duchess. if she weren't free, she'd be the worst 2, but she's so often free. it's like saying peddler is terrible cause it costs 8 for a worse version of market.

[Tdog]

Duchess should be looked at as a mini-hoard, to help mitigate the effects of greening. It shouldn't be looked at on its own.

[ftl]

i have moat and duchess higher than most people (although who the hell put moat at 3?)

Maybe someone who plays exclusively 4-player?

[jonts26]

i have moat and duchess higher than most people (although who the hell put moat at 3?)

Maybe someone who plays exclusively 4-player?

I think it would have to be exclusively 6-player to get that high.

[Jedit]

Regarding Secret Chamber vs. Duchess vs. Pearl Diver: I rank #14 Secret Chamber, #15 Duchess, #16 Pearl Diver. I've seen games where Secret Chamber was a game-winning buy. I've seen games where Duchess were very important buys, but I can't remember games where Pearl Diver buys were really game-changing. I try to ask myself before I rank: "How much does the presence of this card change the board?" Have you ever seen a game, where the presence of Pearl Diver was important? But still these 3 cards are clearly the worst 3 IMO.

It's true that Pearl Diver never wins the game - as per, I'm excluding scenarios involving Throne Room/KC as they make any +C/+A card insane - but it's also never a card you're upset to draw because it's only wasted if you draw it from your last terminal.  Duchess improves your opponent's draws, especially if he's greening or you're playing Spy.  Secret Chamber is generally speaking a terminal Copper with a discard attached that's only really useful for buying Grand Markets or neutralising Minions.  They're both at best narrowly useful, which in my eye makes them poorer buys than a card that will at the least replace itself without cost.

[Teproc]

Huh, my list is really close to the result. Only differences are that I have Moat/Cellar the other way around, which I'm honestly not sure is right, and then I have a few bigger differences in the top spot, namely...

Lighthouse 4th ? I mean, I have it 6th, and I really hesitated putting it ahead of Haven which I have an irrational love for. Yeah, it's good against attacks. It sometimes is somewhat useful in other situations. That's not as exciting as being a strategy on its own, being an excellent BM card or being a good village in the late or early game.

I mean, I guess I could see it over Crossroads, which is my 5, but definitely not over Courtyard or Fool's Gold. I had FG 3rd, but I think Courtyard should probably be 3rd now. I find my rating of FG to be strongly influenced by the recent games I played with/against it, and I probably had just lost while ignoring it when I submitted my list.

[jvb]

Embargo might be the first card in the list that's worth to play with King's Court.

Can you do this? I thought that you can't TR/KC cards that trash themselves?

[eHalcyon]

Embargo might be the first card in the list that's worth to play with King's Court.

Can you do this? I thought that you can't TR/KC cards that trash themselves?

It depends on the wording.  KC/TR will work with Embargo.  They work with Feast too.  The text on these cards give you the effects regardless if the card is trashed or not (though trashing of course occurs).  An example of something that doesn't work is Mining Village.  MV says that you get +$2 if you trash the card, and you can only trash the card once.

[jvb]

Oh, I always thought that it worked the way that you trash the card so you have no card to play the second or third time.  Thanks!

[iangoth]

I haven't read all of the discussion, and I did not submit a list, but I have a feeling that as a community, we underrate Herbalist. I mean, it's not THAT great, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was better with BM than we assumed. Being able to get an extra play of your Gold in a reshuffle, especially late game, seems like it would a huge benefit. It is one of those cards that I think needs experimenting with and seems more useful than just about any of the other bottom-tier $2 cards.

I don't know, it seems reasonably ranked to me. I think I put herbalist dead last, though I stupidly didn't record any of my rankings. Herbalist + BM is essentially tied with BMU (if anything, a hair worse), according to the simulator. In a BM setting, a terminal copper just won't cut it in general. In an engine, you might want an herbalist for the +buy, but virtually any other +buy card would be preferable. Topdecking your treasure might even be disadvantageous, since what you really want in an engine is for your action chain to go off. There are a few combos, like alchemist/herbalist or herbalist/philosopher's stone, but I can't think of anything else.

On a somewhat unrelated note, I really don't think secret chamber deserves last place (I think I put it at #14). Sure, it's terrible in most games, but when it's good, it's usually the key card. Double tactician/secret chamber or scrying pool/secret chamber, for example. People tend to forget how useful the reaction can be, too. Of course, it can directly defend against some attacks, like minion and swindler, but perhaps more importantly, it lets you tweak your current and next hands any time you're attacked. You can use it to smooth out terminal collisions or get an extra chance to find your village. If you're attacked often enough, you can keep passing the secret chamber to the next hand, so you get the benefits of the reaction without having to actually play the card so much.

[HiveMindEmulator]

Regarding Herbalist, I think it's appropriately placed. It's better than the bottom 3, but not useful all that often. It's not going to be good in BM. For the most part it's only slightly better than a terminal Lighthouse ($1 this turn and a minor buff to next turn). The times it's good are going to be with non-standard treasures like Potion/Plat/FG/Hoard/HoP, and obviously as simply a +buy when there are no other options.

[O]

Regarding Herbalist, I think it's appropriately placed. It's better than the bottom 3, but not useful all that often. It's not going to be good in BM. For the most part it's only slightly better than a terminal Lighthouse ($1 this turn and a minor buff to next turn). The times it's good are going to be with non-standard treasures like Potion/Plat/FG/Hoard/HoP, and obviously as simply a +buy when there are no other options.

All of this sounds far more useful than Cellar and Moat.

[a exciting bro]

A few nitpicks:

I'd put embargo in the bottom 3. Good players seem to notice it is there and refrain from going for Duke-Duchy, IGG, Governor rush etc.

My opinion of Herbalist is steadily becoming more favorable. It is passable a lot, but when it's usable it's usually a great value.

I'm also not to wild about crossroads. Pawn is better.

Wish I would have noticed this earlier.... Exciting stuff. I'm one of those bros who probably would think twice about putting chapel at number one... and then chicken out and put it there anyway. Courtyard is close IMO.

[HiveMindEmulator]

I'd put embargo in the bottom 3. Good players seem to notice it is there and refrain from going for Duke-Duchy, IGG, Governor rush etc.

So people have different ways of ranking things, but in my opinion, the fact that the presence of Embargo significantly changes the set of viable strategies makes it a very impactful, and thus "good" card, even if you don't always but it.

[Robz888]

A few nitpicks:

I'd put embargo in the bottom 3. Good players seem to notice it is there and refrain from going for Duke-Duchy, IGG, Governor rush etc.

My opinion of Herbalist is steadily becoming more favorable. It is passable a lot, but when it's usable it's usually a great value.

I'm also not to wild about crossroads. Pawn is better.

Wish I would have noticed this earlier.... Exciting stuff. I'm one of those bros who probably would think twice about putting chapel at number one... and then chicken out and put it there anyway. Courtyard is close IMO.

I strongly disagree with you about Embargo.

I mostly disagree with you about Crossroads and Pawn.

I agree with you about Chapel and Courtyard.

[Jedit]

A few nitpicks:

I'd put embargo in the bottom 3. Good players seem to notice it is there and refrain from going for Duke-Duchy, IGG, Governor rush etc.

Which is the point of buying it.  You're not looking to give them Curses, you want them to not take the Embargoed option because you don't want to play against it. 

[a exciting bro]

Which is the point of buying it.  You're not looking to give them Curses, you want them to not take the Embargoed option because you don't want to play against it. 

I understand that. I just think that's pretty awful. You can force your opponent to not choose a certain strategy, which you can't do either.

Really the only time I buy it is when I only have $2 and I'm not worried about not being able to play it, or my opponent already started a strategy that lives and dies buy one certain card.

[Jedit]

Which is the point of buying it.  You're not looking to give them Curses, you want them to not take the Embargoed option because you don't want to play against it. 

I understand that. I just think that's pretty awful. You can force your opponent to not choose a certain strategy, which you can't do either.

So?  The only time you're going to worry about that is if you and your opponent choose the same strategy.  If that happens, and if you can't gain an initial edge on that strategy or there's no foil card that you can pick up a couple of copies of then shut out, then you either don't buy Embargo or you buy it for something to do and place the token on something marginal.  If you're able to pick up an early Province before using Embargo, put the token on Provinces so you'll win in a 4-4 split.

Embargo is by no means a great card, but it's not being overrated on this list.

[iangoth]

Which is the point of buying it.  You're not looking to give them Curses, you want them to not take the Embargoed option because you don't want to play against it. 

I understand that. I just think that's pretty awful. You can force your opponent to not choose a certain strategy, which you can't do either.

Really the only time I buy it is when I only have $2 and I'm not worried about not being able to play it, or my opponent already started a strategy that lives and dies buy one certain card.

There are other uses which you may not have considered. You can use embargo to solidify an early lead. For example, If you get an early gold, you might be able to embargo the golds before your opponent can get one, or you might embargo the silvers, knowing your opponent will have a hard time getting to gold without more money.

Late game, if you're ahead, you can embargo the duchies and/or estates to make it near impossible to catch up.

Opening with an embargo can be a strong option, especially for player two, when there are two strong strategies on the board. Wait to see what your opponent picks, embargo it, then pursue the other one.

Simply using embargo to block cards you don't like is a valid use, too. Even the best of us have cards we just don't play well, or if you're not willing to admit that, then at least you can block cards with a high luck factor.

[hobo386]

Embargo is also great in alchemy decks.  If you slap it on alchemist, familiar, university, or sometimes even golem, you can ruin an opponent.  (It is still situational, since with decent trashing, an alchemist deck can ignore a few curses. And it is only good only familiar if you have another cursing option, and you can slap it down before they get at least their second. Like 5-2 Mountebanke embargo vs their silver potion type stuff)

[brokoli]

I think embargo would be one of the best card if it had an on-gain effect (for instance, 5/2 buy an IGG, an embargo and embargo immediatly the IGG). Because the big problem of embargo is to draw it and play it at the right time.
But embargo is still a great card and one of my favourite concepts. I really love how embargo can counter some strategies and this is why it is my favourite $2 card, along with crossroads.

[eHalcyon]

Bumping this thread because it might be useful to consider the existing $2 cards when coming up with a $2 fan card for rinkworks' design contest.

(Edit: and don't forget Beggar, Squire and Vagrant.)

[Davio]

Well, most of the $2 cards are pretty unique and so is mine. 

[Schneau]

Well, most of the $2 cards are pretty unique and so is mine. 

Mine doesn't cost $2.