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Author Topic: Finals order [plus a point/card counter debate]  (Read 164713 times)

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popsofctown

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Re: Finals order [plus a point/card counter debate]
« Reply #200 on: July 03, 2012, 09:51:41 pm »
+1

I'll admit, I used it my first day of qualifying (the one I lost).

I do allow users to disable it, however, and the second day of qualifying (where I did qualify for semis) I had it disabled.
Unenforceable rules are dumb.  It's a truth I hold to be self-evident.  It creates an environment where those who violate the rules have an advantage over those who don't, and punishes good ethics. 

I use paper and pencil when I play dominion games online.  That subverts the rules of dominion, I'm pretty sure, haven't read base rules in a while.  But to me it's like an ethical tautology that I should not be expected to obey a rule with a 0% rate of enforcement.  If the rate of enforcement is lower than it needs to be to discourage the behavior I do split the difference and act honestly out of integrity.  But when the enforcement capability is totally and fully zero, I see no point in abiding.  To me it would be like entering a tournament to see who could bully a kid most cruelly.  Because one of the metrics of the competition is, "who will act the least ethically and score 40% more wishing well draws that way?".

This doesn't directly relate to the point tracker because it is a pain to make it invisible (to my knowledge), so there's enforceability.  Just 2 centsing around
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dghunter79

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Re: Finals order [plus a point/card counter debate]
« Reply #201 on: July 03, 2012, 09:55:40 pm »
+1

Distinction as I have studied it: A moral man does what he thinks is right. An ethical man knows what is in fact right.

Aha.  That explains things somewhat.  The distinction as I've always understood it:

Morality is ultimately a function of the individual, ethics is a function of the community/society.

In common usage, they're the same thing.  If there's a distinction, it's that morality refers to subjective feelings of right and wrong, supposed unreachable by rational discourse.  Beliefs.  Whereas ethics refers to the logical relationships between moral principles and behavior.  As in "principle X states that murder is wrong, thus if you hold to X, it is wrong to murder Joe."  So, there is sort of a subjective:objective thing in morals:ethics -- but it's only the logical relationships between principles and behavior that are objectively knowable, or can be quantified as true or false.  Not the actual values of any particular moral principle, which are unknowable without the aid of the supernatural.

But the words are used interchangeably at every level of discourse, and the distinction seems kind of vacuous.

chwhite

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Re: Finals order [plus a point/card counter debate]
« Reply #202 on: July 03, 2012, 10:01:19 pm »
0

But the words are used interchangeably at every level of discourse, and the distinction seems kind of vacuous.

I wouldn't go quite that far.  It's nearly always a "code of ethics" (in school, professions, etc.) rather than a "code of morality", and there's a very good reason for that.  The distinction is important here, where hopefully we can and must agree on what the ethical thing to do is, despite having moral codes that may conflict with each other, or come from different sources.

So, there is sort of a subjective:objective thing in morals:ethics

Yes.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2012, 10:04:07 pm by chwhite »
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GigaKnight

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Re: Finals order [plus a point/card counter debate]
« Reply #203 on: July 03, 2012, 10:21:55 pm »
+4

I'll admit, I used it my first day of qualifying (the one I lost).

I do allow users to disable it, however, and the second day of qualifying (where I did qualify for semis) I had it disabled.
Unenforceable rules are dumb.  It's a truth I hold to be self-evident.  It creates an environment where those who violate the rules have an advantage over those who don't, and punishes good ethics. 

I use paper and pencil when I play dominion games online.  That subverts the rules of dominion, I'm pretty sure, haven't read base rules in a while.  But to me it's like an ethical tautology that I should not be expected to obey a rule with a 0% rate of enforcement.  If the rate of enforcement is lower than it needs to be to discourage the behavior I do split the difference and act honestly out of integrity.  But when the enforcement capability is totally and fully zero, I see no point in abiding.  To me it would be like entering a tournament to see who could bully a kid most cruelly.  Because one of the metrics of the competition is, "who will act the least ethically and score 40% more wishing well draws that way?".

This doesn't directly relate to the point tracker because it is a pain to make it invisible (to my knowledge), so there's enforceability.  Just 2 centsing around

Whether or not you like the rule or want to follow the rules is, in my view, utterly irrelevant.  If you don't obey the rule, you're playing a different game.  Period.  If you play with the PCE, you're not playing Dominion.  You're playing Dominion + PCE.  I personally have no problem with a group of people playing Dominion + PCE but, in this case, the tournament is/was a Dominion + Point Tracker + Identical Starting Hands tournament.  If you add PCE to that, you're playing a different game.  I don't get how this can be any more clear.

People keep saying "well I don't want to" and "you can't enforce it" and "I told people".  Ok, so what?  That doesn't change the fact that they weren't playing the game of the tournament.  I don't like unenforceable rules but if I want to play in the tournament, I play by them.  If somebody else cheats by violating the rule, that's on them.  It sucks for me to lose like that, but I have to decide whether I value my integrity or winning more.

If you enter an online checkers tournament and decide you want to settle your matches by playing chess instead, you shouldn't be surprised when your opponents decline.  And you shouldn't expect the tournament organizers to be "understanding" because that is clearly not the intention of the tournament.
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rod-

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Re: Finals order [plus a point/card counter debate]
« Reply #204 on: July 03, 2012, 10:28:49 pm »
0

Re: Marriage / Tournament analogy
----
This is why you form an explicit agreement upon entry into the tournament / wedding / whatever.  You codify what is and is not allowed.  You make a binding contract of a social nature.

The social contract involved in entering into the qualifier tournament included absolutely no particulars that stated that (external) point counters were disallowed, in fact, the isotropic counter was to default to ON. 

If you enter into an open marriage, you don't get to say "Yeah, i said you could have sex with other people, but i'm upset because you went and did it with a girl."  Girls are people, too!

Unless, of course, you say it outright, from the beginning.  Then it's a rule. 
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popsofctown

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Re: Finals order [plus a point/card counter debate]
« Reply #205 on: July 03, 2012, 10:31:58 pm »
0

Sure, I'm playing a different game.  I popped all my Wishing Wells and won at whatever it is.
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timchen

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Re: Finals order [plus a point/card counter debate]
« Reply #206 on: July 03, 2012, 10:36:23 pm »
0

@Gigaknight: so is your point that if you entered this tournament, you won't play with an opponent with PCE enabled, but is willing to play with a player who writes everything down on a paper?
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DG

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Re: Finals order [plus a point/card counter debate]
« Reply #207 on: July 03, 2012, 10:39:54 pm »
+15

I'm finding this whole discussion way off balance. Dominion is a game. The taking part is more important than the winning. It's meant to be a fun experience with friendly people.

In that context, all the tosh being written here about "unenforceable rules are dumb" and "if the rules don't prohibit this then I can do it" and "I don't want someone else to be secretly have an advantage so I'll have that advantage instead" seems plainly wrong. In a friendly game of Dominion you observe the rules as a courtesy to your fellow players even if they can't be enforced. In a friendly game of Dominion you don't try to bend the rules in unforeseen ways. In a friendly game of Dominion you don't make unwarranted assumptions about your opponents behaving badly. In a friendly game of Dominion you do not put your opponents at a disadvantage that you wouldn't appreciate yourself.

I'm sure that everyone at Rio Grande would like Dominion to still be a friendly game and are dismayed that such a weasely attitude is being shown by so many players once a tournament is organized.
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Personman

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Re: Finals order [plus a point/card counter debate]
« Reply #208 on: July 03, 2012, 10:49:49 pm »
+1

Fun and camaraderie are wonderful things, but in a tournament where the winner gets a trip to US Nationals in Chicago, fairness becomes a more important concern.
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ftl

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Re: Finals order [plus a point/card counter debate]
« Reply #209 on: July 03, 2012, 10:56:16 pm »
0

And the three aren't mutually exclusive, unless someone decides to act unfairly.

Perhaps this is why Jay didn't want tournaments in the first place... (if I'm remembering right, at first Jay didn't want tournaments? I think I remember Donald saying something like that, but I am not sure?)
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dghunter79

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Re: Finals order [plus a point/card counter debate]
« Reply #210 on: July 03, 2012, 11:05:38 pm »
+1

But the words are used interchangeably at every level of discourse, and the distinction seems kind of vacuous.

I wouldn't go quite that far.  It's nearly always a "code of ethics" (in school, professions, etc.) rather than a "code of morality", and there's a very good reason for that.  The distinction is important here, where hopefully we can and must agree on what the ethical thing to do is, despite having moral codes that may conflict with each other, or come from different sources.

So, there is sort of a subjective:objective thing in morals:ethics

Yes.

I feel like I didn't make myself clear.  "Ethics" is a way of describing all the different possible moralities using clear, accessible systematized language.  It isn't about reaching consensus on what's right and wrong.  A "Code of Ethics" is a code because it has the word code, not because it has the word ethics.  "Ethics" doesn't describe a code, it describes all possible codes.

Codes are great, though.  Very useful.  They are an excellent substitute for absolute  moral truth, which we humans will never have, and for agreement, which we humans will never have.  We can all agree on the code, and then agree on what the code says.  But that's not the same as having certainty on what "the ethical thing to do is."  Let alone certainty and agreement!

GigaKnight

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Re: Finals order [plus a point/card counter debate]
« Reply #211 on: July 03, 2012, 11:09:41 pm »
+1

@Gigaknight: so is your point that if you entered this tournament, you won't play with an opponent with PCE enabled, but is willing to play with a player who writes everything down on a paper?

No, that's not what I'm saying.  I would expect the tournament organizers to rule on PCE / note-taking and then, as a participant in the tournament, I would follow that rule.  If players want to cheat once a firm ruling is in place, I can't stop them.  I can report them if I have evidence of cheating, though.  And, in this case, I think theory erred by not ruling that PCE / note-taking was illegal.  If I were the organizer and Personman had told me that he would do it anyway, I would DQ him on the spot.

It's no different to me than if somebody wrote an undetectable hack.  If somebody told me in seriousness that they were going to use it, I would DQ them.  The people who don't care about integrity will use whatever tools they have access to, regardless of the policy.  If any of them would tell me about it, I would just regard them particularly stupid while DQing them.

At some point, you simply have to acknowledge that you can't control your opponents.  Some people care more about winning than integrity; that's reality.  All you can do is decide which is more important to you and then give input on things to change in the future.

Now, if future tournaments want to use the PCE to minimize cheating, that's fine too.  But this tournament had no expectation of the PCE and theory should have, IMO, brought the formal rules inline with the intentions.  It's a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't position for him to be in, though.
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yudantaiteki

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Re: Finals order [plus a point/card counter debate]
« Reply #212 on: July 03, 2012, 11:14:10 pm »
0

One other aspect is that you have to weigh the difficulty of dealing with the "open information" vs. the ease with which the add-on gives you that information.  Keeping track of score is not very hard, whereas keeping track of people's decks is not something that many people will do.  You could go farther and show the cards remaining in your deck as well as the percentage chance of drawing each type of card (since that's completely open to you) but hardly anyone is going to try to keep track of that themselves during the game.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Finals order [plus a point/card counter debate]
« Reply #213 on: July 03, 2012, 11:27:45 pm »
0

Fun and camaraderie are wonderful things, but in a tournament where the winner gets a trip to US Nationals in Chicago, fairness becomes a more important concern.
You do realize that this makes my point exactly?

Captain_Frisk

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Re: Finals order [plus a point/card counter debate]
« Reply #214 on: July 03, 2012, 11:30:16 pm »
+8

Fun and camaraderie are wonderful things, but in a tournament where the winner gets a trip to US Nationals in Chicago, fairness becomes a more important concern.
You do realize that this makes my point exactly?

It makes both of your points.  To be a polite player, he should have disabled it, you could have enabled it and been on equal footing.

Now why can't you all be like me and let people have an extra contraband veto when you accidentally clicked on trusty steed?
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Finals order [plus a point/card counter debate]
« Reply #215 on: July 03, 2012, 11:34:17 pm »
0

Fun and camaraderie are wonderful things, but in a tournament where the winner gets a trip to US Nationals in Chicago, fairness becomes a more important concern.
You do realize that this makes my point exactly?

It makes both of your points.  To be a polite player, he should have disabled it, you could have enabled it and been on equal footing.

Now why can't you all be like me and let people have an extra contraband veto when you accidentally clicked on trusty steed?
But this would require me to compromise my ethics. Ethics>some money and cash prize. Which is largely why I withdrew.

Personman

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Re: Finals order [plus a point/card counter debate]
« Reply #216 on: July 03, 2012, 11:35:37 pm »
0

Quote
You could go farther and show the cards remaining in your deck as well as the percentage chance of drawing each type of card (since that's completely open to you) but hardly anyone is going to try to keep track of that themselves during the game.

I always calculate odds about draws, even when playing without notes in real life. I don't see why a serious player wouldn't.

Fun and camaraderie are wonderful things, but in a tournament where the winner gets a trip to US Nationals in Chicago, fairness becomes a more important concern.
You do realize that this makes my point exactly?

I don't, yet, no. Please explain how?
« Last Edit: July 03, 2012, 11:36:40 pm by Personman »
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Captain_Frisk

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Re: Finals order [plus a point/card counter debate]
« Reply #217 on: July 03, 2012, 11:37:31 pm »
0

Fun and camaraderie are wonderful things, but in a tournament where the winner gets a trip to US Nationals in Chicago, fairness becomes a more important concern.
You do realize that this makes my point exactly?

It makes both of your points.  To be a polite player, he should have disabled it, you could have enabled it and been on equal footing.

Now why can't you all be like me and let people have an extra contraband veto when you accidentally clicked on trusty steed?
But this would require me to compromise my ethics. Ethics>some money and cash prize. Which is largely why I withdrew.

If no-one else objects - then it isn't compromising - you're all on equal footing and everyone is in agreement.  Unless there's a piece to this story that one of the other players also wanted it off?
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Finals order [plus a point/card counter debate]
« Reply #218 on: July 03, 2012, 11:40:33 pm »
0

Fun and camaraderie are wonderful things, but in a tournament where the winner gets a trip to US Nationals in Chicago, fairness becomes a more important concern.
You do realize that this makes my point exactly?

It makes both of your points.  To be a polite player, he should have disabled it, you could have enabled it and been on equal footing.

Now why can't you all be like me and let people have an extra contraband veto when you accidentally clicked on trusty steed?
But this would require me to compromise my ethics. Ethics>some money and cash prize. Which is largely why I withdrew.

If no-one else objects - then it isn't compromising - you're all on equal footing and everyone is in agreement.  Unless there's a piece to this story that one of the other players also wanted it off?
Both of the other players also wanted it off, but made clear that they didn't care enough to actually take some action.

However, this is irrelevant to the point - cheating violating the rules (happy, people?) compromises my ethics, whether or not other people are okay with it.

WanderingWinder

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Re: Finals order [plus a point/card counter debate]
« Reply #219 on: July 03, 2012, 11:41:28 pm »
0

Quote
You could go farther and show the cards remaining in your deck as well as the percentage chance of drawing each type of card (since that's completely open to you) but hardly anyone is going to try to keep track of that themselves during the game.

I always calculate odds about draws, even when playing without notes in real life. I don't see why a serious player wouldn't.

Fun and camaraderie are wonderful things, but in a tournament where the winner gets a trip to US Nationals in Chicago, fairness becomes a more important concern.
You do realize that this makes my point exactly?

I don't, yet, no. Please explain how?
Sure, though I've already explained a number of times. Because this is an event that means something, people need here, more than any other time, to behave fairly by following the rules.

GigaKnight

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Re: Finals order [plus a point/card counter debate]
« Reply #220 on: July 03, 2012, 11:42:02 pm »
+1

Fun and camaraderie are wonderful things, but in a tournament where the winner gets a trip to US Nationals in Chicago, fairness becomes a more important concern.
You do realize that this makes my point exactly?

It makes both of your points.  To be a polite player, he should have disabled it, you could have enabled it and been on equal footing.

Now why can't you all be like me and let people have an extra contraband veto when you accidentally clicked on trusty steed?
But this would require me to compromise my ethics. Ethics>some money and cash prize. Which is largely why I withdrew.

So I'm not exactly well-versed in the minutia of philosophy.  But, if theory said it was allowed, why wouldn't you use it?  I'm not understanding how your personal ethics would be violated by using a tool allowed by the organizer.

If he didn't say it was allowed, he should have warned Personman not to use it and DQ'd him if he said he was going to break the rules.  I already said that's what I would do, but I'm not seeing another course of action theory could have taken that's internally consistent.  Perhaps somebody can explain one to me?
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Powerman

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Re: Finals order [plus a point/card counter debate]
« Reply #221 on: July 03, 2012, 11:42:15 pm »
+2

Quote
You could go farther and show the cards remaining in your deck as well as the percentage chance of drawing each type of card (since that's completely open to you) but hardly anyone is going to try to keep track of that themselves during the game.

I always calculate odds about draws, even when playing without notes in real life. I don't see why a serious player wouldn't.

You calculate exact percentages of drawing each card when playing in real life.  Why exactly is the point counter sooo necessary then?
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Finals order [plus a point/card counter debate]
« Reply #222 on: July 03, 2012, 11:48:12 pm »
+1

Fun and camaraderie are wonderful things, but in a tournament where the winner gets a trip to US Nationals in Chicago, fairness becomes a more important concern.
You do realize that this makes my point exactly?

It makes both of your points.  To be a polite player, he should have disabled it, you could have enabled it and been on equal footing.

Now why can't you all be like me and let people have an extra contraband veto when you accidentally clicked on trusty steed?
But this would require me to compromise my ethics. Ethics>some money and cash prize. Which is largely why I withdrew.

So I'm not exactly well-versed in the minutia of philosophy.  But, if theory said it was allowed, why wouldn't you use it?  I'm not understanding how your personal ethics would be violated by using a tool allowed by the organizer.

If he didn't say it was allowed, he should have warned Personman not to use it and DQ'd him if he said he was going to break the rules.  I already said that's what I would do, but I'm not seeing another course of action theory could have taken that's internally consistent.  Perhaps somebody can explain one to me?
First of all, theory spent a long time trying not to rule. He asked that it not be used on a number of occasions. At some point, he granted that it was illegal. He also, until within half an hour of the actual final happening, made clear that there would be no DQing for using it.
As for the other points, it's very clear. I agreed to abide by the rules of the tournament. It would require me to violate them, regardless of what theory said, to use the point counter. I refuse to break my agreement, or in fact to violate the rules.
It would also require me to take the time to find it, download it, familiarize myself with it, etc. etc. the DAY OF the event, and moreover, expose my machine to any potential threats which this could pose. It further would require me to change browsers to one I refuse to, or download some kind of extension which I don't trust. So the use of it, even if you ignore the (real) ethical reasons, is not something that was going to happen.

Captain_Frisk

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Re: Finals order [plus a point/card counter debate]
« Reply #223 on: July 03, 2012, 11:50:10 pm »
+1

The bottom line is that they are both being unreasonable.  WanderingWinder most likely could have beaten personman with or without tracker, but chose to make a stink about it instead.

Personman should have disabled the f'ing tracker.

How about this?  We stop posting in this thread - and from now on only talk about legitimate dominion STRATEGY.  WW has decided to stop playing with us - and i'm not going to play with Personman or respond to any of his posts going forward.  Problem solved.

So... today I played a game with Masquerade,  Ambassador, Bishop, Council Room, Peddler and Bazaar.

With a 4/3 opening - how would you open?

My opponent - a high ranked player - opened bishop / amba - and I opened masq silver.  I got the bazaar -> councilroom -> bishop -> buy province + peddler engine going faster.

My opponent commented - first one to 5 wins this game.  My retort was that he opened a very slow hand - amba / bishop is very unlikely to hit 5 on t3/t4.

When both amba and masq are on the board - what factors cause you to choose one vs. the other?
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Finals order [plus a point/card counter debate]
« Reply #224 on: July 03, 2012, 11:55:55 pm »
+1

The bottom line is that they are both being unreasonable.  WanderingWinder most likely could have beaten personman with or without tracker, but chose to make a stink about it instead.
I find it unreasonable that you think it unreasonable to hold ethical principles over some kind of desire to win. I see very little reason for me to have competed, and very significant reasons not to.
And in fact, I did not choose to make a stink here until a stink had already been raised.
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