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Author Topic: Finals order [plus a point/card counter debate]  (Read 92148 times)

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timchen

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Re: Finals order [plus a point/card counter debate]
« Reply #125 on: July 03, 2012, 02:15:24 pm »
+1

The keyword there is "dishonestly".

And I think people should care about what a word is usually intended to mean. Or do you not mind if I define "idiot" as someone who just unconditionally stand by the rulebook rules and define "bastard"  as someone who is just unwilling to respect people by properly using the word, and then I just call someone posting here idiotic bastard?
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timchen

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Re: Finals order [plus a point/card counter debate]
« Reply #126 on: July 03, 2012, 02:16:58 pm »
0

Re: the word "cheat". I use this word to mean "violate the rules of the game". This may or may not be deceptive, may or may not be intentional. Please read any posts wherein I make use of this word, and its derivatives (i.e. cheating, cheater, cheated), with this definition in mind. Thank you.

Then the way you are using is wrong. See
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cheat

No words about violating the rules at all.

There are lots of dictionaries though:

Verb
cheat (third-person singular simple present cheats, present participle cheating, simple past and past participle cheated)
(intransitive) To violate rules in order to gain advantage from a situation.
My brother flunked biology because he cheated on his mid-term.
Ok, my bad. I guess cheating is not that a strong word after all.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Finals order [plus a point/card counter debate]
« Reply #127 on: July 03, 2012, 02:24:39 pm »
+1

Timchen keeps stealing posts right out of my fingers.

Here's a tip if you want your meaning to be clear: don't make up your own definitions, use conventional ones. Do you expect every person to have read that one post where you cleared up what "cheating" means to you?
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Finals order [plus a point/card counter debate]
« Reply #128 on: July 03, 2012, 02:27:12 pm »
+1

Timchen keeps stealing posts right out of my fingers.

Here's a tip if you want your meaning to be clear: don't make up your own definitions, use conventional ones. Do you expect every person to have read that one post where you cleared up what "cheating" means to you?
This is a conventional definition. It is certainly not one I made up. I have never known 'cheat' to mean anything else, besides in the phrase 'cheat on your (person you have a romantic relationship with'.
That there is a dictionary containing this definition as well, is, I think, pretty clear evidence that it's not something I just made up.

zxcvbn2

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Re: Finals order [plus a point/card counter debate]
« Reply #129 on: July 03, 2012, 02:30:41 pm »
+1

Two definitions:
To violate rules in order to gain advantage from a situation.

To violate rules dishonestly

The point is that this thread has devolved into bitching about the definition of the word cheating. Please stop it. I don't usually advocate locking threads, but this has become senseless bickering about the semantics of others' posts. I don't think this thread is going anywhere useful.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Finals order [plus a point/card counter debate]
« Reply #130 on: July 03, 2012, 02:31:39 pm »
0

Timchen keeps stealing posts right out of my fingers.

Here's a tip if you want your meaning to be clear: don't make up your own definitions, use conventional ones. Do you expect every person to have read that one post where you cleared up what "cheating" means to you?
This is a conventional definition. It is certainly not one I made up. I have never known 'cheat' to mean anything else, besides in the phrase 'cheat on your (person you have a romantic relationship with'.
That there is a dictionary containing this definition as well, is, I think, pretty clear evidence that it's not something I just made up.

The closest thing to your definition that has been posted is:
"To violate rules in order to gain advantage from a situation."

Which is pretty clearly more nefarious than simply "violate the rules of the game". I don't think your definition is totally off the mark but I think it misses out on a pretty clear component of the typical definition. Which is the sort of value-laden concept of trying to help yourself unfairly.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Finals order [plus a point/card counter debate]
« Reply #131 on: July 03, 2012, 02:33:14 pm »
+2

The point is that this thread has devolved into bitching about the definition of the word cheating. Please stop it. I don't usually advocate locking threads, but this has become senseless bickering about the semantics of others' posts. I don't think this thread is going anywhere useful.

I was sincerely under the impression that the entire point of this thread was senseless bickering, and of course its going nowhere useful. Its not the destination, its the journey!
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Finals order [plus a point/card counter debate]
« Reply #132 on: July 03, 2012, 02:57:07 pm »
+2

I believe that stopping such discussion is a major problem. That by trying to limit it, you are only put it off until later. That as much as you might want it to go away, it will not. That indeed by trying to stifle discussion on the subject, you in fact only make the problem worse.

The issue at hand with the finals is mildly related to the merits of using a point counter or not, etc. It is much more importantly concerned with integrity and ethics. The primary reason for my withdrawal was due to what I felt to be a lack of integrity from my fellow contestants, as well as from the organizer, and my ethical obligation to not unethically cooperate with others' unethical behaviour in the form of cheating. theory's position was not a pleasant one, but he made poor choices every step of the way, and ultimately, he made his own bed here. I will explain that this does not mean I think him to be an immoral person, but rather someone who has done several things which are wrong. I do not particularly expect many of you to understand the difference, but I feel obligated to explain for those who will.

I intend to post the entirety of what was conversed for all to see. I understand that theory does not want it here, and can indeed stop it from being here. So likely it will be somewhere else. But I feel it is necessary to fully explain the situation, and I feel like the situation needs fully to be explained. Furthermore, I believe that I am fully within my rights to repeat anything which was said to me, particularly when there was no hint of a condition of anonymity at the time it was said. Indeed, there were several people I had told BEFORE theory's request. I will not edit the contents of what was said, except to clean up some formatting issues (lots of '>'s, line breaks in random places that aren't original) and to edit out people's personal information, where such information is not publicly available already. All changes other than the > thing and the extra spaces thing will be noted as changes  made by me, so that they will be plain to see. Oh, I suppose I have also spliced in some of the messages in the middle, to reflect as best as possible the order in which they were actually sent by everyone, as they were not quite all one big chain.

Edit: I am holding off for the moment to give theory the chance to give me some superior reason to not post it. I can't think of one which will suffice, but I want to give him time to have the chance.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2012, 04:14:45 pm by WanderingWinder »
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Davio

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Re: Finals order [plus a point/card counter debate]
« Reply #133 on: July 03, 2012, 03:52:54 pm »
+4

I must admit that after all these posts, I'm still surprised by people calling using the extension cheating.

Do they not understand the meaning of cheating? The people who are using the PCE aren't ordering their deck in the manner it pleases them. They're not suddenly grabbing Moats in hand whenever an opponent plays an attack card. They're not breaking the rules by sending fake messages to the server. All they do is use the information that everyone has.

Card counting is not cheating, it's not against the rules to count. It is frowned upon though and it will get you thrown off private property. Online you can count cards all you want, but apparently it's less useful as they use decks with a gazillion cards? I'm not sure though as I haven't played online Blackjack. The thing is that online Blackjack is different from real life Blackjack. You can't shuffle a gazillion cards in real life.

The same is true for Dominion.

All of the arguments of the PCE haters don't hold if they don't accept it's a different game, or at least a variant.
But the haters already seem to have lost the possibility to think rationally. Heck, people who advocated the use of the PCE on the forums were actually subject to bans for future tournaments, even if they would agree not to use it!

These kinds of knee-jerk reactions don't get you anywhere people. Stop, sit back, think, get over your initial shock. So many were shocked to find out the PCE didn't just track points, but also cards.

A logical response would have been: "I didn't know it did that, is this information available for us too?" And from here on an insightful discussion could have followed from where we could have gotten somewhere. Instead, the fingers were pointed immediately to players who used it and even the guy who programmed it! It was like Mafia all over again.

I have seriously lost faith in a lot of the people who think using the PCE is cheating. They're so blinded by their initial shock that they just stepped on the bulldozer and have lost the ability to process logical arguments.

The solution is not to ban the PCE, this will have 0 zero empty false result. It won't change ANYTHING! Nothing, nada, nyet! People who want to use a counter will break out the spreadsheet or use offline software. And then the people who wanted to ban the thing are stuck at the same point they were before! They still don't use the information that the other player uses? Are they going to complain if the opponent scribbled some things down on a piece of paper.

Hell, I jotted things down on paper before the Point Counter came out on Iso. Not because I wanted to cheat so badly, just because I wanted to use the information I had to the best of my ability. In real life games, it's a different story. I'm with you guys on that one, don't write anything down, keep it in your head. You just CAN'T expect the same for an online game.

Why do you think Poker Rooms have logs you can browse back to? They can't force players to either forget previous hands or remember them. They settled on using logs to provide players an equal field of play. Some sites even show statistics how many hands you've won or lost.

An online game should treat itself like an online game, not as a one on one copy of the offline experience.

I've seen so many games fail this way....
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chwhite

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Re: Finals order [plus a point/card counter debate]
« Reply #134 on: July 03, 2012, 04:18:51 pm »
+2

I must admit that after all these posts, I'm still surprised by people calling using the extension cheating.

And I must admit that, after all these posts, I'm surprised you still think this is just about whether the extension is cheating or not.  As far as I'm concerned, that particular question is almost completely besides the point.
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rod-

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Re: Finals order [plus a point/card counter debate]
« Reply #135 on: July 03, 2012, 04:44:55 pm »
+1

I've seen so many games fail this way....
This is where people have their blinders on.  They only remember "Hey, i like to play this game offline, let's do the same thing, but on the internet" and don't think "Hey, this game is good offline, maybe it could be great online". 

I also don't understand it.  I don't see people pushing for a button to push to manually reshuffle their decks or draw their cards...The interface is sleek and streamlined and takes away all of the unnecessary grunt work, leaving you to play the GAME.  A point counter does the same thing.  It doesn't play for you, it doesn't do anything that you can't do on your own, it just does it faster. 
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Lekkit

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Re: Finals order [plus a point/card counter debate]
« Reply #136 on: July 03, 2012, 04:54:59 pm »
0

First of all, if WW wants to withdraw from the tournament, I don't feel like we all have to know why. If he wishes to share that information, that's up to him. But I would never try to force him to share.

Second, I don't consider the use of PCE cheating. I do however think it gives the player with it a slight advantage. But probably as much advantage as playing a Shanty Town and then your Militia without any other actions in hand.

I do think it's kind of poor sportsmanship to have the PCE without the option of disabling it. Especially if you play without the built in point tracker. I'll probably start disabling it in games with Fairgrounds, Ambassador, Vineyards, Gardens and possibly Horn of Plenty.

Regardless, I don't think any lesser of any of you, wether you play with the PCE, like it or hate it.
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Fabian

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Re: Finals order [plus a point/card counter debate]
« Reply #137 on: July 03, 2012, 04:57:36 pm »
+1

I do think it's kind of poor sportsmanship to have the PCE without the option of disabling it. Especially if you play without the built in point tracker.

Just to be clear, this isn't possible. If you play without the !disable option, point tracker is automatically set to "required" and can't be changed.
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Personman

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Re: Finals order [plus a point/card counter debate]
« Reply #138 on: July 03, 2012, 05:00:18 pm »
0

I'm primarily posting to clear up one small misconception I saw a few pages back. Doing exactly what the extension does manually, and almost as precisely, is kind of annoying, but really not very time consuming at all, as you can clearly see by watching me do it throughout the finals yesterday. I did stop caring towards the ends of some games, because I felt it no longer mattered, but keeping up with it really wasn't a big deal at all. It's just a really pointless hoop to make me jump through when I could just have the extension instead. Also, it might be more irritating for other people than it is for me, and in THAT way I perhaps do have an advantage that I shouldn't. If everyone could just use the extension, that advantage disappears...

In this case I made the spreadsheet publicly available, so that I think it can only be argued that I was playing at a disadvantage. My opponents (or at least jtl005) were certainly using it during the games, as you can see in the video by the labeled selection boxes of other users showing up in the spreadsheet, and jtl005 asking me where the sheet for game 2 was in chat.

I'm still waiting for anyone who shares Donald's and Kirian's objections to my earlier logic to present them in not-insulting terms. Until then, I don't have a lot more to say on the topic in general, as I think we've all repeated ourselves enough by now.
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timchen

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Re: Finals order [plus a point/card counter debate]
« Reply #139 on: July 03, 2012, 05:06:27 pm »
+3

Wow. Personman, I would say this is a bit excessive.

I am pretty sure you will not be allowed to do so, suppose you have won and went to the nationals. Sure I understand once online there are no ways for the tournament director to forbid you from doing so... but why? Can people not just agree on not using the point counter and rely on their own heads?
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Fabian

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Re: Finals order [plus a point/card counter debate]
« Reply #140 on: July 03, 2012, 05:09:55 pm »
0

The thought of playing a 35 minute game because the people involved are updating their spreadsheets constantly makes me want to quit Dominion outright, ugh. Then again I'm easily annoyed when a Dominion game isn't played at a reasonable speed regardless so I dunno.
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questioneer

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Re: Finals order [plus a point/card counter debate]
« Reply #141 on: July 03, 2012, 05:12:33 pm »
0

Hey just wanted to chime in here.  I recently ran the Detroit Area Qualifier.  It went fantastic!  However, this issue of card counting did come up as some of the players that came had played online and were used to the counter.

One of the players that made it to the finals had pen and paper to use to count cards and point track.  I allowed it and people didn't make a big deal out of it.  After the tourny, we discussed it online here.  It seems that everyone was against having any items out during FTF tournys.

After asking DXV, it seems he was against it also.  So for next time we will not allow these items.  However for an online Qualifier, theory or DXV or somebody just needs to make a ruling on the issue and move on.

I don't think its cheating at all.  Just a different way to play.  Online is just a different way to play vs FTF- simple as that.

If Wandering wind wants to withdraw, then that is his right.  Play on.  Afterwards, work together to make the online Qualifier clearer and better for people.

Honestly, people are blowing their breath over something petty- grow up, work together, play on, improve the system and move on.

It might help if there were some universal Dominion tourny rules and procedures.  Personally I like the tournament point system for the online Qualifier here.
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Obi Wan Bonogi

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Re: Finals order [plus a point/card counter debate]
« Reply #142 on: July 03, 2012, 05:20:38 pm »
+3

A very similar debate to this raged for years in the online poker community regarding statistic tracking programs.  At the end, the majority of the sites drew a line by allowing trackers that tracked your personal history and disallowed anything that pooled a large database of statistics compiled by different players or bots.  Essentially anything that could be accomplished by pencil and paper(no matter how tedious) was allowed and anything that went beyond that was disallowed.  The stat trackers for poker are WAY closer to cheating the game than the counter at debate here, and in the end they were allowed(for the most part). 

Personally, I think this debate is a lot of ruffled feathers over something that is pretty inconsequential.  I don't use the point counter.  But I would never call someone that chose to use it in plane view a cheater.  I think at the highest level of play the counter is very close to a complete non-factor, perhaps preventing a blunder here and there.  If anything, the point counter is a tool for up and coming players to get a better handle on the game. 
« Last Edit: July 03, 2012, 05:28:05 pm by Obi Wan Bonogi »
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Donald X.

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Re: Finals order [plus a point/card counter debate]
« Reply #143 on: July 03, 2012, 05:25:21 pm »
+4

In this case I made the spreadsheet publicly available, so that I think it can only be argued that I was playing at a disadvantage. My opponents (or at least jtl005) were certainly using it during the games, as you can see in the video by the labeled selection boxes of other users showing up in the spreadsheet, and jtl005 asking me where the sheet for game 2 was in chat.
Show this to Jay at the tournament and I think there's a decent chance he will DQ you. Also, my estimate of the chance of a future online qualifier happening is zero.
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Personman

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Re: Finals order [plus a point/card counter debate]
« Reply #144 on: July 03, 2012, 05:35:55 pm »
0

The thought of playing a 35 minute game because the people involved are updating their spreadsheets constantly makes me want to quit Dominion outright, ugh. Then again I'm easily annoyed when a Dominion game isn't played at a reasonable speed regardless so I dunno.

If you actually watch the video, you will see that I waste almost no time at all updating the spreadsheet. I do it almost entirely during other people's turns, and often let a few changes stack up before making them at once.

As you will see if WW does in fact publish the email thread (I really think he ought to respect theory's wishes and not do so, but I can't stop him) the ruling was reversed half an hour before the game started. I had initially intended and been explicitly allowed to use the extension, and made it clear that I would use a public spreadsheet instead if it were ruled against. In the end, it was ruled against, so I used a spreadsheet.

Wow. Personman, I would say this is a bit excessive.

I am pretty sure you will not be allowed to do so, suppose you have won and went to the nationals. Sure I understand once online there are no ways for the tournament director to forbid you from doing so... but why? Can people not just agree on not using the point counter and rely on their own heads?

This argument about bringing the qualifiers in line as much as possible with what will happen at Nationals keeps coming up over and over, and it continues to baffle me. Online Dominion is nothing like paper Dominion for so many other reasons - the psychology of being face to face, the presence of the log, the chance to misclick, no requirement to shuffle, the official point counter - that bringing up one additional difference and trying to make a principled stand on those grounds just baffles me.

I also disagree that it is strange or excessive for me to bother with a spreadsheet. Different people in different communities and from different backgrounds have different priorities, of course, so mine may seem strange and excessive to other people. But to me it is the bare minimum that I, as rational person trying to win at Dominion, should do. It's kind of too bad that the finals didn't include a serious Wishing Well engine game, so that you could see me get really excessive - I've had a lot of practice at tracking my exact progress through my deck and always maximizing my Wishing Well odds.
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Captain_Frisk

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Re: Finals order [plus a point/card counter debate]
« Reply #145 on: July 03, 2012, 05:37:19 pm »
+2

Also, my estimate of the chance of a future online qualifier happening is zero.

Let's not punish the many for the sins of a few. 

@Personman - measure twice - cut once.
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Personman

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Re: Finals order [plus a point/card counter debate]
« Reply #146 on: July 03, 2012, 05:39:08 pm »
0

In this case I made the spreadsheet publicly available, so that I think it can only be argued that I was playing at a disadvantage. My opponents (or at least jtl005) were certainly using it during the games, as you can see in the video by the labeled selection boxes of other users showing up in the spreadsheet, and jtl005 asking me where the sheet for game 2 was in chat.
Show this to Jay at the tournament and I think there's a decent chance he will DQ you. Also, my estimate of the chance of a future online qualifier happening is zero.


Then I guess he'll have to DQ the actual winner, jtl005, who is on record as having used it during the game.

To be clear, I explained in great detail exactly what I would do before the tournament started, and it was approved as non-DQable by the organizer.
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theory

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Re: Finals order [plus a point/card counter debate]
« Reply #147 on: July 03, 2012, 05:40:10 pm »
+3

From my perspective what happened:

1. WW raises the issue that Pman wants to use an undisableable card counter

2. I tell Pman, don't use it

3. Pman insists on using it

4. [insert long flamewar betwen WW and Pman, while I'm asleep, wherein WW withdraws]

5. Not noticing that WW withdrew, I tell Pman in no uncertain terms that he should not use it but I'd prefer it if everyone used that rather than Pman taking 15-minute turns writing everything down [those of you who played in the BGGDL era will know what I'm referring to]

6. Pman takes that as an endorsement to use it

7. In an attempt to bring WW back rrenaud proposes that no one is allowed to use the counter, and if you wanted to take notes we couldn't stop you, but anyone judged in our view to be "excessively delaying", or timed out by the isotropic timer, would be DQ'd

8. WW did not reenter the tournament and under those rules the match was played.  Pman updated a spreadsheet that everyone had access to.

I have no authority over what Jay does and does not want to do at Nationals.  I approved Pman's proposed spreadsheet in the sense that I wouldn't kick him out of the finals for using it.

My view on this echoes OWB.  The point counter is of so little use to anyone competing at the top level that I'm dismayed it has turned into such a nasty debate. 
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Personman

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Re: Finals order [plus a point/card counter debate]
« Reply #148 on: July 03, 2012, 05:42:17 pm »
0

I think that's actually a pretty unfortunately inaccurate account of what happened, and I'm now kind of thinking that the email thread should be published despite your objections...

Here is my version of a similar rundown:

1. WW raises the issue that Pman wants to use an undisableable card counter

2. Theory "asks" that I not use it.

3. After some discussion, Theory clarifies that it is explicitly legal, but that he will be "disappointed" if I use it.

4. WanderingWinder threatens me with a lawsuit, calls me a huge variety of names, and then withdraws.

5. I really should have let things rest here, but instead I try to continue the discussion, since I think that soft pressure of the kind that Theory was applying is a really awful thing to bring to a competitive environment.

6. Theory and I have a really nice private chat in which we come to understand that (I think) he understands my logic perfectly, but wishes that everyone could make concessions to the desires of the group and play with each other harmoniously. This is a noble and understandable desire, but I am too concerned with the ease with which my opponents can cheat to take this path.

7. Half an hour before the game is scheduled to start, rrenaud suggests the "no point counter, slow play is punishable" ruling, and Theory adopts it. I protest that I will do an exactly equivalent thing (use the spreadsheet) with no chance of it causing me to slow play, and that thus this ruling is silly. Nevertheless, it us upheld and I abide by it.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2012, 05:49:08 pm by Personman »
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Donald X.

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Re: Finals order [plus a point/card counter debate]
« Reply #149 on: July 03, 2012, 05:43:30 pm »
+12

I'm still waiting for anyone who shares Donald's and Kirian's objections to my earlier logic to present them in not-insulting terms. Until then, I don't have a lot more to say on the topic in general, as I think we've all repeated ourselves enough by now.
I don't know why you think someone will explain how you are justifying immorality without insulting you. Do they start off with a speech about how morals are arbitrary?

Morals are arbitrary. There are a bunch of atoms moving around, and later on they are in different positions. What are morals, in this context? Mere high-level abstractions.

Also, here's a handy way to justify whatever evil thing you were going to do anyway:

Quote
1. Everyone likes to be able to trust each other and treat each other without suspicion.
2. People like to win.
I know, right?

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3. People sometimes succumb to the temptation to secure advantages via illegitimate means, especially if they are 100% certain that they cannot be caught.
For example, it's advantageous for your wife to cheat on you. Maybe she'll get pregnant and increase the fitness of her offspring. That's no sleight against your genes; genetic diversity is one to one with genetic fitness. It is for sure better to cheat on you.

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4. The point counter can be trivially modified to be undetectable. As blueblimp points out, at present there is no reason to believe anyone has done so (but neither is there particular reason to believe that they haven't).
Similarly your wife can trivially cheat on you without you catching on. You can try to argue against this, but man, you are at the office all day, and it's a long commute, and she's always out buying groceries or getting her hair done or something.

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5. Even if no one is actually cheating, the existence of an easy and undetectable way to cheat breeds suspicion and resentment.
Even if she isn't cheating, the fact that she easily could breeds suspicion and resentment.

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6. It also provides an incentive for otherwise honest players to begin cheating - "My opponent is probably using an undetectable point counter, I guess I will too".
For all she knows, you're probably cheating on her, with some floozy at work. Why not also cheat on you?

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7. The only resolution to problems of unenforceability is to legalize the unenforceable action.
The only resolution to problems of unenforceability is to legalize the unenforceable action.

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8. Therefore, to maintain the trusting nature of the community, and to avoid providing unfair advantages to those willing to cheat in undetectable ways, the extension should always be legal in competitive play. This is an unfortunate conclusion for those who have a strong preference for Dominion play without the extension, but I believe it is nevertheless an inescapable fact of online life. The alternative is to incentivize and reward unethical behavior.
Therefore, to maintain the trusting nature of the community, and to avoid blah blah blah, your wife should be free to have sex with whoever. This is an unfortunate conclusion for those who prefer monogamy, but it is an inescapable fact of modern life. The alternative is to incentivize and reward unethical behavior. And we wouldn't want that! Then people would do unethical things!

It's a neat trick that you can solve the problem of "x is unethical" by saying "let's redefine x to not be unethical." Problem solved!

I have nothing against people with open marriages or people who like point counters. Your argument is crazy nonsense though, and it turns out humanity is better than that.
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