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Author Topic: Finals order [plus a point/card counter debate]  (Read 73722 times)

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Robz888

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Re: Finals order
« Reply #25 on: July 02, 2012, 10:34:46 pm »
0

Oh. I see.
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Kirian

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Re: Finals order
« Reply #26 on: July 02, 2012, 10:38:56 pm »
0

I didn't realize this at all. In other words, every person with the "Auto Count" thing next to their name has this ability?

That is correct.  In addition, some people do not allow it to be disabled (the default state I believe).
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Finals order
« Reply #27 on: July 02, 2012, 10:44:05 pm »
0

The Auto Count thing means they have it set so that it cannot be disabled.

edit: well i'm not sure actually, it seems the Auto Count message is required if you've disabled disabling, but I don't know if Auto Count always means that has occurred.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2012, 10:47:19 pm by Mic Qsenoch »
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blueblimp

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Re: Finals order
« Reply #28 on: July 02, 2012, 10:56:57 pm »
+1

The Auto Count thing means they have it set so that it cannot be disabled.

edit: well i'm not sure actually, it seems the Auto Count message is required if you've disabled disabling, but I don't know if Auto Count always means that has occurred.

There are three options:
  • Shows status message and can be disabled. (Edit: thought this was the default, but it's not.)
  • Shows status message and can't be disabled.
  • Doesn't show status message and can be disabled. (The default.)
The only thing that you can't do is turn off disabling and not show the status message.

I've attached a screenshot to show what the point counter looks like when you use it (with the other player's name hidden). Next to the cards in the supply, you can see how many each player has. The chat box is what it looks like after typing "!details", which both players can see. You can see current points and deck sizes next to the chat input box (which is the same info you get by typing "!status").
« Last Edit: July 02, 2012, 10:59:44 pm by blueblimp »
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Personman

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Re: Finals order
« Reply #29 on: July 02, 2012, 10:58:47 pm »
+1

I have requested permission from the other finalists and theory to post full screenshots of the email debate that preceded the finals.

I have also uploaded the videos of the finals to youtube!

The games themselves were great, especially this one. I do feel that I threw away a good chance at the win via a) a somewhat unfortunate misclick in the last game (I meant to buy workshop, not woodcutter) and more importantly b) a failure to remember that it was in my interest to kingmake for ednever when it became clear that I couldn't win. However, jtl005 played extremely well in every game, had a better record than me going into the decider, and deserves his win fully. Ednever didn't have the strongest results, but he was no slouch, and was a real threat in every game. Well played to both opponents, thanks for the wonderful games, and special thanks to both of you for keeping level heads in the midst of what became a rather heated discussion.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2012, 11:06:23 pm by Personman »
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theory

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Re: Finals order
« Reply #30 on: July 02, 2012, 11:21:27 pm »
+7

I do not give permission.  Not because there is anything damaging or embarrassing in those emails (as you know), but because I believe very strongly that if we had wanted to conduct the debate on a public forum, we would have.  People should be free to communicate on email without the fear of having their communications made public (or being pressured to do make it public).

If WanderingWinder wishes to explain his principled stand, he may do so on his own.  If he chooses not to, then that's the end of the story, I'm afraid.  This too shall pass.
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Kirian

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Re: Finals order
« Reply #31 on: July 02, 2012, 11:37:30 pm »
+8

(screenshot)

Holy shit, really?  That's what this does?  I mean, that's everything except showing your hand and the contents of your discard pile to your opponent!  And I'm sure the same addon could probably do the latter to within a certain amount of error.

Seriously, that's easily five levels' worth of playing ability in a nice, succinct format, available only to one player.

I think it's time to start playing with "point counter: never" rather than "don't care."
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nopawnsintended

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Re: Finals order
« Reply #32 on: July 02, 2012, 11:58:46 pm »
0

Wow.  I'm with Kirian. I had no idea that the Auto Count extension did this.  Now, I see why people use it, and why it could make a difference.  As someone who never thought to use a deck tracker (or even keep a spreadsheet tally as in the finals video), it never occurred to me to turn off the extension.  I thought it was just a somewhat innocuous public good -- That is, if I type "!details", everyone sees what I have too.

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Personman

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Re: Finals order
« Reply #33 on: July 03, 2012, 12:02:26 am »
0

Theory: That's perfectly reasonable, and I meant no pressure. You need not fear that I will make anything from the thread public (and you are perfectly correct that you are not hiding anything damaging or embarrassing).

Kirian: There are a number of misunderstandings in your post. First and foremost, the isotropic combo box labeled "Point counter" does not in any way affect your opponent's use of drheld's extension. It refers only to the built in point counter. There is nothing isotropic can do to prevent you from using client-side card tracking tools. (Thanks blueblimp for correcting me on this!)

Secondly, the information is NOT available to only one player. The extension (in addition to being freely available to everyone) also includes a chat-box interface that the opponent can use. You can type "!details" in the chat box and receive a full listing of your and your opponent's cards.

Lastly, I strongly encourage you to think of the point tracker not as a devious attempt to gain an advantage, but as an enabling tool for a legitimate, optional Dominion variant in which more information is public. My favorite Dominion games by an ENORMOUS margin are those in which both players are using the extension and making well-informed decisions (and not wasting their time writing it down by hand or memorizing it). If you do not understand how I can think this, I refer you to this video, in which the extension enabled me to carefully and precisely control my deck flow with native village and wishing well. That is the kind of highly technical, tactical play that I enjoy.

This variant may not be to your liking, and that is fine. No one is asking that you play against players with the extension when you do not want to. If it is undisableable, it is announced in the player's status message, with the phrase "Auto▼Count". Otherwise, you have the option of typing "!disable" in chat to remove the extension entirely for both players. All I ask is that you not feel that you are being deceived or cheated. Some of us just sincerely believe that the extension makes the game deeper and richer for everyone.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2012, 12:16:21 am by Personman »
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blueblimp

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Re: Finals order
« Reply #34 on: July 03, 2012, 12:02:50 am »
0

I mean, that's everything except showing your hand and the contents of your discard pile to your opponent!  And I'm sure the same addon could probably do the latter to within a certain amount of error.

To address the technical issue here, namely whether the extension could track hand and discard pile: TLDR, it can't now, it would be harder to implement if someone wanted to, and it could never accurately track your opponent.

Tracking your opponent's discard (or hand, or draw deck) accurately is impossible. A lot of the time, you don't know what they discard, even in the early game. e.g. Was that card they didn't play an Estate, or a collided terminal? Or later, did they discard actions to that Warehouse, or VP? An extension could track which cards they've played since the last reshuffle, but you can get about the same effect by looking back a couple turns in the log.

Tracking your draw deck and discard is possible in principle, but difficult to implement. To understand why, you need to know how the point counter extension works now. To track deck contents, it uses log messages only. This works because whenever a card is added to or subtracted from your deck, there is a log message saying so. On the other hand, there isn't always a log message when you draw a card or discard a card (because of the clean-up phase). This means it's fundamentally impossible to track your draw deck by only looking at log messages. To track the draw deck, you'd also need to look at hand contents, and that increases implementation difficulty.
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timchen

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Re: Finals order
« Reply #35 on: July 03, 2012, 12:04:07 am »
0

No it can't. It just tracks everything everyone has bought. No estimations and guesses. In a 2p game at least, it is not too different from what I keep track of (basically this is due to the fact that I know my cards and from the supply and trash I can deduce what the other player has.)

On the other hand 3p and 4p are quite different. I think conceivably one just cannot keep track of so many things ,without training. So if we go back to the original question, I actually think in this tournament the point counter should be left disabled. That is what you will face IRL anyway.
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blueblimp

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Re: Finals order
« Reply #36 on: July 03, 2012, 12:07:55 am »
+1

Kirian: There are a number of misunderstandings in your post. First and foremost, the isotropic combo box labeled "Point counter" does not in any way affect your opponent's use of drheld's extension. It refers only to the built in point counter. There is nothing isotropic can do to prevent you from using client-side card tracking tools.
This is wrong. When the point counter extension is enabled, it forces the official point counter to be on. If your auto-match settings forbid a point counter, you won't be auto-matched with anybody using the point counter extension.

(In principle, anyone could modify the extension to be completely invisible to the opponent. There's no reason to believe that anyone does this.)

Quote
Secondly, the information is NOT available to only one player. The extension (in addition to being freely available to everyone) also includes a chat-box interface that the opponent can use. You can type "!details" in the chat box and receive a full listing of your and your opponent's cards.
This is correct. The only difference between the player running the extension and the player who isn't is how the information is displayed. "!details" gives you all the information available to either player (and actually more than is displayed next to the supply cards, because of Black Market, Tournament, etc.).
« Last Edit: July 03, 2012, 12:09:11 am by blueblimp »
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Personman

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Re: Finals order
« Reply #37 on: July 03, 2012, 12:15:34 am »
0

Kirian: There are a number of misunderstandings in your post. First and foremost, the isotropic combo box labeled "Point counter" does not in any way affect your opponent's use of drheld's extension. It refers only to the built in point counter. There is nothing isotropic can do to prevent you from using client-side card tracking tools.
This is wrong. When the point counter extension is enabled, it forces the official point counter to be on. If your auto-match settings forbid a point counter, you won't be auto-matched with anybody using the point counter extension.

(In principle, anyone could modify the extension to be completely invisible to the opponent. There's no reason to believe that anyone does this.)

Oh! That makes sense. I think I knew that once, but had totally forgotten. That's quite a good thing, I suppose.
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blueblimp

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Re: Finals order
« Reply #38 on: July 03, 2012, 12:21:02 am »
+2

(and not wasting their time writing it down by hand or memorizing it).
A little note here: from what I remember, the Donald X. ruling is that if one player is taking notes on paper, that is a variant. To play a variant legitimately, both players need to agree.

Edit: Reference for this.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2012, 12:25:43 am by blueblimp »
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Kirian

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Re: Finals order
« Reply #39 on: July 03, 2012, 12:23:16 am »
+7

Secondly, the information is NOT available to only one player. The extension (in addition to being freely available to everyone) also includes a chat-box interface that the opponent can use. You can type "!details" in the chat box and receive a full listing of your and your opponent's cards.

While this is technically true, there is an issue of convenience.  You, running the addon, get to see the numbers all the time in a nice, easy-to-read format.  I, without the addon, have to type !details every single time I want to know the information--which means every round if I want to have the same information you do.  In addition, the readability of the chat-log format is significantly lower, and takes more brain power to process; this is not a minor detail.

Quote
Lastly, I strongly encourage you to think of the point tracker not as a devious attempt to gain an advantage, but as an enabling tool for a legitimate, optional Dominion variant in which more information is public.

Certainly, it's a legitimate variant if you wish to play this way.  However, it's notable that people were being forced into this variant without knowing quite what it was, and the format of having the addon vs. not having it does still give an advantage to the player running the addon.  In addition, some people run it without it the option of the other player(s) disabling it, which is troubling, especially if the opponent doesn't know what the addon can do.

I'm kind of saddened that I won't get to play against you again, bb, but I basically consider tournament games I've played against you to be illegitimate.  Sorry.

This addon will be barred from future IsoDom tournaments, should they happen.
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Personman

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Re: Finals order
« Reply #40 on: July 03, 2012, 12:24:01 am »
+1

Quote from: blueblimp
A little note here: from what I remember, the Donald X. ruling is that if one player is taking notes on paper, that is a variant. To play a variant legitimately, both players need to agree.

..and all players are given ample opportunity to opt out of games with the extension variant, as you yourself have just noted. I want to give you the benefit of the doubt, but it's hard not to read this as fairly pointless antagonism.

Quote from: Kirian
This addon will be barred from future IsoDom tournaments, should they happen.

You can do whatever you want in tournaments you run, but I beg you to consider the following line of argument:

1. Everyone likes to be able to trust each other and treat each other without suspicion.
2. People like to win.
3. People sometimes succumb to the temptation to secure advantages via illegitimate means, especially if they are 100% certain that they cannot be caught.
4. The point counter can be trivially modified to be undetectable. As blueblimp points out, at present there is no reason to believe anyone has done so (but neither is there particular reason to believe that they haven't).
5. Even if no one is actually cheating, the existence of an easy and undetectable way to cheat breeds suspicion and resentment.
6. It also provides an incentive for otherwise honest players to begin cheating - "My opponent is probably using an undetectable point counter, I guess I will too".
7. The only resolution to problems of unenforceability is to legalize the unenforceable action.
8. Therefore, to maintain the trusting nature of the community, and to avoid providing unfair advantages to those willing to cheat in undetectable ways, the extension should always be legal in competitive play. This is an unfortunate conclusion for those who have a strong preference for Dominion play without the extension, but I believe it is nevertheless an inescapable fact of online life. The alternative is to incentivize and reward unethical behavior.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2012, 12:34:28 am by Personman »
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Donald X.

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Re: Finals order
« Reply #41 on: July 03, 2012, 12:46:12 am »
+7

1. Everyone likes to be able to trust each other and treat each other without suspicion.
2. People like to win.
3. People sometimes succumb to the temptation to secure advantages via illegitimate means, especially if they are 100% certain that they cannot be caught.
4. The point counter can be trivially modified to be undetectable. As blueblimp points out, at present there is no reason to believe anyone has done so (but neither is there particular reason to believe that they haven't).
5. Even if no one is actually cheating, the existence of an easy and undetectable way to cheat breeds suspicion and resentment.
6. It also provides an incentive for otherwise honest players to begin cheating - "My opponent is probably using an undetectable point counter, I guess I will too".
7. The only resolution to problems of unenforceability is to legalize the unenforceable action.
8. Therefore, to maintain the trusting nature of the community, and to avoid providing unfair advantages to those willing to cheat in undetectable ways, the extension should always be legal in competitive play. This is an unfortunate conclusion for those who have a strong preference for Dominion play without the extension, but I believe it is nevertheless an inescapable fact of online life. The alternative is to incentivize and reward unethical behavior.
This is cuckoo.

I do not see myself being willing to try to talk sense into you. You could try David desJardins on BGG, I have seen him shoot down this brand of nonsense.
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blueblimp

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Re: Finals order
« Reply #42 on: July 03, 2012, 12:46:17 am »
0

Quote from: blueblimp
A little note here: from what I remember, the Donald X. ruling is that if one player is taking notes on paper, that is a variant. To play a variant legitimately, both players need to agree.

..and all players are given ample opportunity to opt out of games with the extension variant, as you yourself have just noted. I want to give you the benefit of the doubt, but it's hard not to read this as fairly pointless antagonism.
Sorry, this wasn't directed at you specifically, but was just intended to ward off the debates over what's-cheating-what's-not that always seem to crop up in these threads. That debate tends to lead to threads getting locked.

Quote
1. Everyone likes to be able to trust each other and treat each other without suspicion.
2. People like to win.
3. People sometimes succumb to the temptation to secure advantages via illegitimate means, especially if they are 100% certain that they cannot be caught.
4. The point counter can be trivially modified to be undetectable. As blueblimp points out, at present there is no reason to believe anyone has done so (but neither is there particular reason to believe that they haven't).
5. Even if no one is actually cheating, the existence of an easy and undetectable way to cheat breeds suspicion and resentment.
6. It also provides an incentive for otherwise honest players to begin cheating - "My opponent is probably using an undetectable point counter, I guess I will too".
I disagree with this line of reasoning. If a tournament forbids the point counter extension, then honest players won't use it. Cheaters can always find some other way to cheat apart from using an illicit extension. (Get my better-ranked friend to play my games for me? Why not!)
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Kirian

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Re: Finals order
« Reply #43 on: July 03, 2012, 12:46:44 am »
0

..and all players are given ample opportunity to opt out of games with the extension variant, as you yourself have just noted.

This is patently false if it is possible to turn off disabling.

You can do whatever you want in tournaments you run, but I beg you to consider the following line of argument:

1. Everyone likes to be able to trust each other and treat each other without suspicion.
2. People like to win.
3. People sometimes succumb to the temptation to secure advantages via illegitimate means, especially if they are 100% certain that they cannot be caught.
4. The point counter can be trivially modified to be undetectable. As blueblimp points out, at present there is no reason to believe anyone has done so (but neither is there particular reason to believe that they haven't).
5. Even if no one is actually cheating, the existence of an easy and undetectable way to cheat breeds suspicion and resentment.
6. It also provides an incentive for otherwise honest players to begin cheating - "My opponent is probably using an undetectable point counter, I guess I will too".
7. The only resolution to problems of unenforceability is to legalize the unenforceable action.
8. Therefore, to maintain the trusting nature of the community, and to avoid providing unfair advantages to those willing to cheat in undetectable ways, the extension should always be legal in competitive play. This is an unfortunate conclusion for those who have a strong preference for Dominion play without the extension, but I believe it is nevertheless an inescapable fact of online life. The alternative is to incentivize and reward unethical behavior.

I... wow, just wow, man.  Really?  You're going with "if X is outlawed, only outlaws will have X" as an argument?  Really?

If the addon can be trivially modified to be invisible--even without any evidence that it has been done--then I openly call for swift condemnation of the addon by the community, abjure those who use it, and ask dougz and the FunSockets team to do everything in their power to make such addons unusable.
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jonts26

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Re: Finals order
« Reply #44 on: July 03, 2012, 12:54:20 am »
+1

"if X is outlawed, only outlaws will have X"

Fun fact to lighten to mood. This statement falls under the larger class of statements coined snowclones by the internet.
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blueblimp

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Re: Finals order
« Reply #45 on: July 03, 2012, 12:56:29 am »
+1

Seriously, that's easily five levels' worth of playing ability in a nice, succinct format, available only to one player.

Anecdote here: I'm not much higher rank than before card count display.

I'd like tournaments to allow the point counter extension. I enjoy Dominion more with it, mostly out of curiosity (since it gives me something to look at during boring stretches of the game).

In my experience, it doesn't actually make that much difference when playing an individual game. Sure, it may show you that you lost the Peddler split 8-2, but you probably knew that roughly anyway, and you're going to lose in any case. Same goes with a severe curse imbalance. The main exception here are Amb games, where seeing how many coppers you have can be pretty helpful. (Although now that I know how useful it is, I'd want to start counting them mentally in non-extension games, which would be so annoying that I might quit Iso instead.)

Where it's really nice is after-the-fact analysis. Why did my opponent connect his Tournaments more easily? Well, maybe because he bought two of them and a Warehouse, whereas I only had one and didn't get a Warehouse. Sure, I could look at the log for this, but it's a lot more convenient to do it during the game. Somehow this doesn't actually make me play better, though.
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Re: Finals order
« Reply #46 on: July 03, 2012, 01:03:27 am »
+2

I think Personman's argument is probably exaggerated, but reasonable. Still, I believe people here are nice enough, and the games are friendly enough, so this argument is not relevant.

However, one thing I always have a hard time understanding is why some people prefer not to have point counters even in a pure online setting. I guess I just don't understand what part of memory game is fun, especially comparing to other aspects of Dominion.
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Obi Wan Bonogi

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Re: Finals order
« Reply #47 on: July 03, 2012, 01:06:57 am »
+14


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blueblimp

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Re: Finals order
« Reply #48 on: July 03, 2012, 01:07:35 am »
0

If the addon can be trivially modified to be invisible--even without any evidence that it has been done--then I openly call for swift condemnation of the addon by the community, abjure those who use it, and ask dougz and the FunSockets team to do everything in their power to make such addons unusable.

To be clear, a cheater would need to modify the source code of the extension to do this. The add-on itself won't let you make it invisible, but AFAIK it is not technically possible for a Chrome extension to prevent source modification. The extension's author (drheld) has done everything reasonable to make the extension up-front.
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Personman

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Re: Finals order
« Reply #49 on: July 03, 2012, 01:08:18 am »
+3

Quote from: Kirian
I... wow, just wow, man.  Really?  You're going with "if X is outlawed, only outlaws will have X" as an argument?  Really?

...yes. Yes I am. I would like to better understand your apparent belief in the absurdity of this notion, as "Really?" isn't really helping me.

Maybe the issue here is our differing experiences with other online communities? I just find it inconceivable to have faith that strangers on the internet, presented with an opportunity to cheat at a game with no chance of getting caught, will not do so. It must be nice to feel certain that your community is entirely above that, but I think it is naive.

In the early days of Isotropic I might have been more willing to entertain this notion, but after a recent string of players I've never met before opening games by saying "Fuck you" in chat, muting me, and proceeding to slow-play, I see absolutely no reason to assume people in an isotropic tournament won't be unscrupulous.

Of course, I also really, really, really think Dominion is a better game when played with the extension, so my conclusion intrinsically makes me happy rather than sad, and there is a real possibility that this is biasing my logic in some way. If you think so, please point out how.

Quote from: timchen
I think Personman's argument is probably exaggerated, but reasonable. Still, I believe people here are nice enough, and the games are friendly enough, so this argument is not relevant.

However, one thing I always have a hard time understanding is why some people prefer not to have point counters even in a pure online setting. I guess I just don't understand what part of memory game is fun, especially comparing to other aspects of Dominion.

Man, it feels really nice to encounter a somewhat like minded player. We should play some more games! And I wish I could be as optimistic as you about the community, but see above...

Quote from: Donald X
This is cuckoo.

I do not see myself being willing to try to talk sense into you. You could try David desJardins on BGG, I have seen him shoot down this brand of nonsense.

With all due respect, I was not asking you to talk sense into me. I worry that I am slipping into a persecution complex here, but I am really reading this as "HEY EVERYONE I MADE THIS GAME SO MY OPINION IS THE BEST, THIS OTHER GUY IS CRAZY AND WRONG LOL". I want to believe that you are above that, so I hope you can explain to me what I was meant to take away from your post, other than being made the target of a witchhunt by the most high-profile member of the community. I really am not attempting to force my opinions on anyone else. All I want are the following few things:

1. For my position to be respected, as I respect those who prefer memory-intensive Dominion.

2. To educate those who have misconceptions about why people like me enjoy extension-Dominion.

3. To find and/or help create like minded players, via my forum posts and commentary videos, so that I have a larger pool of like-minded players to compete with.

I wish everyone didn't have to get so mad...
« Last Edit: July 03, 2012, 01:15:38 am by Personman »
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My youtube channel. Isoptropic games with commentary!
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