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Author Topic: Masquerade  (Read 21548 times)

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jomini

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Re: Masquerade
« Reply #25 on: July 08, 2012, 11:45:26 pm »
0

A simple consideration in multiplayer is that masq-possession is no longer so broken. Using masq to trash one opponent (e.g. passing a colony) is often just giving the game to the third man.

Another thing that happens is that use masq as an improvised curse giver is much less powerful. You need both opponents, not just one to have limited trashing/masq play, otherwise the curse will just keep cycling. Additionally, even when you can reliably use masq to curse and not have it bounce back to you or get trashed (eventually), you can only hammer one player.

A final consideration, which may be against the spirit of the game, is to use masq to feed one player so he decides the game toward you. E.g. there are two provinces left and you pass a silver (you have 5 silver, copper). Either the next guy will end the game (you win) or he will deplete the duchies (depriving your closer opponent of a chance to nab a duchy). This can be less king-making if you are pursuing different strategies and the other two guys are competing for a pile you want evenly split - I'd far rather have the minions get split 3-3-4 if I'm going BM-X than end up with a 2-4-4 or worse a 2-3-5. Likewise, I'd far rather see the duchy pile go 6-6 in a duke game where I'm the third man going for provinces; if reveals or other knowledge suggests that I can help make splits go even I may pass coin rather than estates or even curses at key moments.
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theory

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Re: Masquerade
« Reply #26 on: July 09, 2012, 03:50:59 pm »
+1

I haven't yet posted this article, but thanks to jomini's excellent analysis above, I've updated the KC/Goons/Masq article.  Which, let's face it, was seriously out of date.  Let me know if there's anything else that should be added.
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verikt

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Re: Masquerade
« Reply #27 on: July 09, 2012, 06:38:44 pm »
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I had sort of a double pin going here for a couple of turns. It fell apart at some point but I was lucky with my late draws. http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120706-092235-5b0ce439.html
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jomini

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Re: Masquerade
« Reply #28 on: July 10, 2012, 10:12:06 am »
+2

I haven't yet posted this article, but thanks to jomini's excellent analysis above, I've updated the KC/Goons/Masq article.  Which, let's face it, was seriously out of date.  Let me know if there's anything else that should be added.
A few things I would note:
1. Multi-player pins are possible, just hard to pull off. A simple example is Kc/Scheme/Militia/Outpost/Kc/Masq:
Kc -> Sc -> Mi -> Op -> Kc -> Mq
Kc -> Sc -> Mi -> Kc -> Mq

That will pin two players in 3er. Obviously these are even more rare and even slower than basic pins, but they are possible. 4er pins are likewise possible, but they involve shenanigans with NV, golem, and KC so I think a simple line that most pins don't work in multiplayer is fine. As more cards get added to dominion, so far, it looks like the pin is getting easier and the multi-player pin is getting easier even faster.

2. I maintain that VP chips are mostly irrelevant to the win. Goons is likely the worst card to try to use for a pin. It's expensive so you have to build up to it, it lacks draw so you need a cantrip to avoid having to pass a key component in a discard -> masq situation, and it provides points to the opponent who may be able to pile out the curses for a win before you can overcome their accumulated goons points, and lastly masq/goons heavily encourages the opponent to use the masq for draw/copper trashing and just muck up your combo to no end. I think the best combo is either Kc/Masq/Outpost - very little innate engine potential,  5 cost enabler, and immune to reactions or TR/TR/Minion/Outpost/Masq - cheap and quick. Stuff like militia being cheaper or ghost ship and margrave having + draw should not be over looked. Once you get the opponent down to no cards you can now buy copper (if you need it) and build up while having 5 extremely strong cards in your starting deck, the opponent has nothing; if you can't win from there (barring something flukey like 4 provinces on the NV mat), you really need to work on the basics.

3. I would stress more the utility of cantrips in the pin. Cantrips mean that you are much less vulnerable to being hit with a game winning masq on your one turn of vulnerability. They also let you go Kc -> Cantrip to draw the rest of the pin and play it -> discard -> Kc -> Mq if you've been hit with a discard attack. Having a cantrip out makes the pin a much safer play against a knowledgeable opponent.

4. Part of the counter-combo is that you also go discard -> masq which is just brutal to an ultra-thin deck. Against a single masq, hey you have a left over chapel or some other terminal you can pass over, or as noted a cantrip. With discard -> masq you can only make the pin next turn if you have Kc/cantrip/dross in hand. If you want to fight the pin rather than race it, build an engine that can play discard & masq every turn. It really hoses the pin player.

5. Masq also helps by giving the opponent a card they have to trash before you are fully pinned. You only lose two cards the next turn and one card may be enough for you to survive or setup something killer. E.g. You play masq and send over a copper. They semi-pin - passing you a copper which you pass back and lose two other cards. You play menage, kick off your engine, and pass another copper, and gain 3 or more cards. When facing a pin you almost always want to send over treasure or VP instead of actions, if you really must send an action, a terminal is far better to send than a cantrip.

6. Governor and Embassy both work quite well for disrupting masq pins when you are trying to delay the pin until you can win. Feeding your opponent silvers that they have to pass to you slows down the pin immensely. KC/gov can ensure that you aren't pinned this turn and hopefully set up a turn of KC/gov/gov for next turn. Likewise, Noble Brigand can be absolutely show stopping for a pin, if they don't have 6 or more cards, you can only give them a copper a turn, however if they did take the strong route and overbuild their pin with many cantrips, you can give them scads of coppers. If you do give them just one copper, this means you will have a one card hand next turn which may be fine at letting you set up another disruptive NB play (e.g. KC/menage/NB is quite good). Also during the build up, stealing silver is evil to guy who needs two KCs, copper dumping slows down the pin, and of course, you can use your gains to build up a nice counter deck. Ambassador is the final card in this set, you can completely nerf a pin by going Kc -> Am (reveal, but don't return a copper).
« Last Edit: July 10, 2012, 10:45:18 am by jomini »
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jomini

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Re: Masquerade
« Reply #29 on: July 10, 2012, 10:19:59 am »
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Oh, and I also have at least a blurb in there that things like TR/TR/Minion/Outpost/Masq can pin as well as things like KC/NV/Golem/Discarder (e.g Secret chamber)/Masq. The pin is technically much more viable than people think and it is a way to take a long shot at a win when you have fewer than half the VP left on the board.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Masquerade
« Reply #30 on: July 10, 2012, 05:32:13 pm »
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I find pins actually quite underrated. The fact that you're not only left with an empty hand, but your deck is slowly getting trashed into nothing makes them a force to be reckoned with. The only way to win against a pinning player once the pin is ready is to end the game before the pin's set up. Once the pin's going you may be lucky enough to have more VP chips or set aside VP than the other player and can win by emptying the copper and curse piles (Which requires another pile to be empty and the pinning player to have no means of gaining more VP), but this is almost never the case (I think most games where the pin gets set up end with the pinned player forfeiting).

Moat and durations may allow you to have cards in your hand once the pin's going, but with those cards (which will be very few unless you had a wharf engine or played tactician) you can usually only slow the pin down by using young witch, familiar, witch or ambassador, or buying an IGG or embassy (which will leave you with 1 more card than usual the next turn) or mountebank (which will leave you with 2 more cards than usual the next turn) or using masquerade itself. That's the best bet, but if the attack being used is militia or goons, it will be very easy to simply buy whatever card gets passed out and the classic KC/KC/Attack/Masq pin has room for an extra card anyway. While all this is going on, you need to find some way to end the game before your deck is turned to mush. This is a very tough proposition, and requires a lot more luck than the pinning player ever needed to get his pin set up.

Also, I don't know if it's been brought up, but I think that Minion/Village/Outpost/TR/Masq is a pin. That is a pin that you'd be able to set up without your opponent even knowing you've got that plan.
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jomini

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Re: Masquerade
« Reply #31 on: July 10, 2012, 06:37:24 pm »
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I find pins actually quite underrated. The fact that you're not only left with an empty hand, but your deck is slowly getting trashed into nothing makes them a force to be reckoned with. The only way to win against a pinning player once the pin is ready is to end the game before the pin's set up. Once the pin's going you may be lucky enough to have more VP chips or set aside VP than the other player and can win by emptying the copper and curse piles (Which requires another pile to be empty and the pinning player to have no means of gaining more VP), but this is almost never the case (I think most games where the pin gets set up end with the pinned player forfeiting).

Moat and durations may allow you to have cards in your hand once the pin's going, but with those cards (which will be very few unless you had a wharf engine or played tactician) you can usually only slow the pin down by using young witch, familiar, witch or ambassador, or buying an IGG or embassy (which will leave you with 1 more card than usual the next turn) or mountebank (which will leave you with 2 more cards than usual the next turn) or using masquerade itself. That's the best bet, but if the attack being used is militia or goons, it will be very easy to simply buy whatever card gets passed out and the classic KC/KC/Attack/Masq pin has room for an extra card anyway. While all this is going on, you need to find some way to end the game before your deck is turned to mush. This is a very tough proposition, and requires a lot more luck than the pinning player ever needed to get his pin set up.

Also, I don't know if it's been brought up, but I think that Minion/Village/Outpost/TR/Masq is a pin. That is a pin that you'd be able to set up without your opponent even knowing you've got that plan.

Actually you can easily win against a pin player once the pin is ready. A simple pin just requires that you play masq the turn the pin is ready - he passes either an unreplaceable card or he passes a masq; you keep doing that while you pile out and win. If they buy masq again ... you just play masq again. If they buy a third action (Kc/Kc/Mi/action/Mq), then you hit them with a discard attack & then a masq. Further if they have militia or goons - they absolutely must have a drawing card as the 5th card or they can be stopped cold by YOU playing militia (or goons) every turn.


With durations, masq can be played even after the pin has been sprung - haven a masq every turn and you will always have one to play.

Another option is to get cards into the opponent's deck. Buying embassies buys you time and can give you full 3 card hands to play (15 coin with 3 buys is certainly doable with a lot of Kc engines). A Kc/governor engine absolutely trounces a pin deck (until the silver runs out) - just be sure to gain 3 golds most turns and you can survive as they have to pass over silvers to clean out their deck. Remember you ALSO have access to Kc. Kc -> mountebank results in them gaining SIX cards; so you are safe from being pinned for not one, but two turns. Kc -> Ambassador can indefinitely delay the pin by revealing a single copper. If you play Kc -> Kc -> Am -> Am, the pin will fall further and further behind.

Yeah single curses buy time, but it is, afterall, a King's Court game. You can get time to build a huge megaturn and just pile out. You can buy out piles & VP so when you pile out, he can't kill your deck before you pile out the curses and end the game. He spent a good bit of time building an ultra-thin deck, surely you did something big with that time - like getting a deck that can reliably play masq + discard or reliably play 3 junk attacks (ambassador, mountebank, noble brigand) or play 3 govs to gain golds.

I've brought up my Tr/Tr/Minion/Op/Masq pin; you can of course use a village instead of the second Tr. Like most outpost pins - it is MUCH more vicious to fight than discard based attacks. Also, unlike Kc pins, it doesn't take a long build-up to get setup. But even there, you still have options. For instance, you can play +actions (either village or Tr->Tr->) -> masq -> minion for cards -> masq and just utterly hose the opponent's deck if you snag not one, but two needed components.


The real issue is that 90% of people on THIS board have not thought how to fight pins (and why should they? it is a reasonably rare combination of cards that make it even possible); on isotropic or in person people rarely see the combo and virtually never contest it. It's like when you play someone who says "chapel trashes cards, why would I want that if witch isn't in the game" - sure you win 90+% of the time, but it is due to tactical ignorance, not the inherent unstoppable nature of the pin. The pin is overrated because we see it so rarely and people don't know how to counter it, if people thought more about "where is the pin weak" and "ZOMG when it hits all my cards are gone" it would still be uber-strong, it just would be rated more appropriately as a sometimes tactic that can be countered often by its own components.
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zahlman

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Re: Masquerade
« Reply #32 on: July 11, 2012, 12:31:15 am »
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1. Multi-player pins are possible, just hard to pull off. A simple example is Kc/Scheme/Militia/Outpost/Kc/Masq:
Kc -> Sc -> Mi -> Op -> Kc -> Mq
Kc -> Sc -> Mi -> Kc -> Mq

That will pin two players in 3er.

That leaves a 1/6 chance that the Scheme isn't in your hand at the start of your turn...
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ftl

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Re: Masquerade
« Reply #33 on: July 11, 2012, 01:02:01 am »
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You KCed a scheme, you can always set it so  that it's the top card of your deck.
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zahlman

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Re: Masquerade
« Reply #34 on: July 11, 2012, 03:02:06 am »
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You KCed a scheme, you can always set it so  that it's the top card of your deck.

Oh, right, it's played on the Outpost turn too, silly me :)
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