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[icesphere]

This is probably a question for Donald:

So I know isotropic will be taken offline after the official online version is released, but what about other websites such as boardgamearena and BSW? Will they be allowed to continue?

My website (kingdom.servegame.org) gets very little traffic, so I doubt it would have much of an impact on the official version, but I was wondering if I limited the cards on my website to just the base set, plus fan-made cards would it then be okay to keep my website up after the release?

There are other fan-made cards that I think would be fun to implement, but I don't want to waste the effort if you are planning on asking me to close down my website after the official release.

If not, it was still fun to implement the website (thanks for making a game that was worth the effort).

[Donald X.]

This is probably a question for Donald:

So I know isotropic will be taken offline after the official online version is released, but what about other websites such as boardgamearena and BSW? Will they be allowed to continue?

My website (kingdom.servegame.org) gets very little traffic, so I doubt it would have much of an impact on the official version, but I was wondering if I limited the cards on my website to just the base set, plus fan-made cards would it then be okay to keep my website up after the release?

They will all go down, even if they just have the base set. This is just something we have to offer to our pals at funsockets. They are doing this as a job, they have food on the table because of it, and if some people would be playing at boardgamearena instead then that would be bad for them.

[popsofctown]

If -all- Dominion cards are excluded, including the base set, there's not enough intellectual property involved to say hands-off, is there?

I know Puzzle Strike hasn't had arms raised against it, and it uses pretty much all the rules of dominion + some new rules they added.

(And Sirlin is currently generating revenue off online Puzzle Strike)

[Donald X.]

If -all- Dominion cards are excluded, including the base set, there's not enough intellectual property involved to say hands-off, is there?

I know Puzzle Strike hasn't had arms raised against it, and it uses pretty much all the rules of dominion + some new rules they added.

(And Sirlin is currently generating revenue off online Puzzle Strike)

As usual I have zero interest in discussing exactly to what degree you can rip off Dominion and get away with it legally. Let's just pretend here, among friends, that no-one would do such thing, that any Dominion-inspired game anyone here made would be sufficiently different that of course I would wish them well and so much for that.

Sirlin, I remember him, I bumped into him once. He said do you know who I am, and I said yeah, you're the guy that ripped of someone's idea for a chip version of Dominion. And he said, you know I credit you in the rulebook, and I said oh, do you credit that guy? And he said no. Then, I mentioned that there was a playtester I thought we both knew, and I was right, we did both know him.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/395648/dominion

[popsofctown]

So he's a douche for failing to credit the chip idea, but his game is significantly enough unique from Dominion?
To clarify.

And sorry for ruffling your feathers about derivative games.  I think there's what the law considers plagiarism, what you consider plagiarism, and what I consider plagiarism, and all three are probably different.

[Donald X.]

So he's a douche for failing to credit the chip idea, but his game is significantly enough unique from Dominion?
To clarify.

And sorry for ruffling your feathers about derivative games.  I think there's what the law considers plagiarism, what you consider plagiarism, and what I consider plagiarism, and all three are probably different.

You have whatever opinion you want of Sirlin copying that guy's idea; that is just who Sirlin is to me, he is the guy who did that. I am not going to compare Puzzle Strike to Dominion for you.

[popsofctown]

Everything I say seems to be upsetting you, so I'm just going to say I'm sorry and shut up.

[theory]

David Sirlin is a despicable game "designer". 

Imagine if DXV made Dominion, except Big Money was so overpowered it beat basically everything.  So you then had to buy Dominion 2.0, and then Dominion 3.0, each of which he has promised is the most perfectly expertly balanced game, except until the next one.

Also imagine if DXV also ran DominionStrategy, except you had to pay for strategy guides and for "premium" access to DominionStrategy.  (My next strategy article is for "premium members" only!)

Finally, imagine if when DXV made Dominion, Dominion: Intrigue already existed (made by someone else), and DXV claimed Dominion was just 'inspired' by Dominion: Intrigue.  And that DXV had a history of doing similar things (including copying sections of Knizia's rulebook word for word while deleting all references to Knizia).  And on top of that DXV writes long articles about how his game rules and how those other games sucked because they aren't playtested and lack DXV's expert guidance (oh except for the part where Big Money beat everything, forgot to test that).

That's how I feel about David Sirlin.  He is the Zynga of boardgaming.

[Donald X.]

Everything I say seems to be upsetting you, so I'm just going to say I'm sorry and shut up.

It is hard to convey tone on the internet, I am not actually upset here. I just don't want another long conversation about what exactly goes over the line. It is for the most part great that so many people have gotten to make uninspired Dominion-based games. I mean some people like playing them; there are a bunch of those people and only one of me. Copyright law is crazy generous currently, in a way that's good for copyright holders but bad for humanity, and the US is currently big on cashing in on that.

But whatever; "so what about this, can you sue then" is just not what my friends talk about.

[popsofctown]

David Sirlin is a despicable game "designer". 

Imagine if DXV made Dominion, except Big Money was so overpowered it beat basically everything.  So you then had to buy Dominion 2.0, and then Dominion 3.0, each of which he has promised is the most perfectly expertly balanced game, except until the next one.

Also imagine if DXV also ran DominionStrategy, except you had to pay for strategy guides and for "premium" access to DominionStrategy.  (My next strategy article is for "premium members" only!)

Finally, imagine if when DXV made Dominion, Dominion: Intrigue already existed (made by someone else), and DXV claimed Dominion was just 'inspired' by Dominion: Intrigue.  And that DXV had a history of doing similar things (including copying sections of Knizia's rulebook word for word while deleting all references to Knizia).  And on top of that DXV writes long articles about how his game rules and how those other games sucked because they aren't playtested and lack DXV's expert guidance (oh except for the part where Big Money beat everything, forgot to test that).

That's how I feel about David Sirlin.  He is the Zynga of boardgaming.

I was not endorsing Sirlin

[icesphere]

This is probably a question for Donald:

So I know isotropic will be taken offline after the official online version is released, but what about other websites such as boardgamearena and BSW? Will they be allowed to continue?

My website (kingdom.servegame.org) gets very little traffic, so I doubt it would have much of an impact on the official version, but I was wondering if I limited the cards on my website to just the base set, plus fan-made cards would it then be okay to keep my website up after the release?

They will all go down, even if they just have the base set. This is just something we have to offer to our pals at funsockets. They are doing this as a job, they have food on the table because of it, and if some people would be playing at boardgamearena instead then that would be bad for them.

I will be sad to see my website go, since that is probably the only way a lot of people will try out the fan made cards, but I understand why funsockets would want to be the only site.  Plus there are other ways to try them out (print and play), and I've discovered recently that I often prefer to play Dominion IRL.

As to all of these other comments, yes I probably could "legally" keep the website up, but that wouldn't be very nice, and I definitely want to be nice to people making board games, since I enjoy them so much.

[werothegreat]

Would you have any legal recourse against someone who made a game, online or otherwise, that was essentially an exact replica of the mechanics of Dominion, but used different names, and had slightly different wordings?  Like, if I made a game called BubbleBubble, where you used SeaShells to buy Bubbles and TidePools, Bays, and Oceans?

[WanderingWinder]

Would you have any legal recourse against someone who made a game, online or otherwise, that was essentially an exact replica of the mechanics of Dominion, but used different names, and had slightly different wordings?  Like, if I made a game called BubbleBubble, where you used SeaShells to buy Bubbles and TidePools, Bays, and Oceans?

Probably he has little to no recourse, but I don't understand why you keep trying to play this game with him, considering that his last post is basically saying that he doesn't want to play such games.

[sitnaltax]

This article is worth reading and pondering:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/experienced-points/9389-Copyrights-and-Copycats

It essentially says that the current system, which is rather permissive of ripoff games, isn't great, but that the alternative is much worse.

[werothegreat]

Would you have any legal recourse against someone who made a game, online or otherwise, that was essentially an exact replica of the mechanics of Dominion, but used different names, and had slightly different wordings?  Like, if I made a game called BubbleBubble, where you used SeaShells to buy Bubbles and TidePools, Bays, and Oceans?

Probably he has little to no recourse, but I don't understand why you keep trying to play this game with him, considering that his last post is basically saying that he doesn't want to play such games.

Did not see that.  That's what I get for skimming.

[Tombolo]

...man, I like Sirlin, but if he's as big a villain as the thread makes him out to be, I might have to reconsider :\

[sitnaltax]

...man, I like Sirlin, but if he's as big a villain as the thread makes him out to be, I might have to reconsider :\

Sirlin is a complex character, like Jaime Lannister or King Lear.

[Captain_Frisk]

...man, I like Sirlin, but if he's as big a villain as the thread makes him out to be, I might have to reconsider :\

Sirlin is a dick.  Of this there can be no debate.

Sirlin is also an interesting character.  His blog (prior to when it became all about marketing his board games) was a favorite read of mine.

I tend to side with him on the Flash Duel debate.  I own the original version - and it does reference En Guarde as its inspiration.  I'm told this was removed in subsequent printings - which is clearly a dick (see above) move. 

Puzzle Strike is a dominion ripoff - and it has its flaws - but its still better than really bad ripoffs (look at Resident Evil as an example).

That said - as an owner of 1st edition, I'm angry at the annual releases.  The fact that he justifies it as acceptable because Capcom does it is doubly offensive.

[Tombolo]

I enjoy reading his articles on game balance and stuff and enjoyed the Street Fighter tutorial he did.  All I really knew about him otherwise was that Kongai and Puzzle Strike are moderately fun.

Aren't there a bunch of Dominion ripoffs at this point?  I don't know as much about the games scene as I'd like but my impression was that Dominion had practically inspired a new deckbuilder sub-genre of games.

[popsofctown]

1st edition puzzle strike is recall material and warranted an apology.  It doesnt come close to.the box's claim of being balanced for.competitive play

[Captain_Frisk]

I enjoy reading his articles on game balance and stuff and enjoyed the Street Fighter tutorial he did.  All I really knew about him otherwise was that Kongai and Puzzle Strike are moderately fun.

Aren't there a bunch of Dominion ripoffs at this point?  I don't know as much about the games scene as I'd like but my impression was that Dominion had practically inspired a new deckbuilder sub-genre of games.

The clones I've played:
Thunderstone - basic dominion rules with monster killing.
Puzzle Strike - basic dominion rules with colored actions and direct player conflict instead of VP Gaining
Resident Evil - basic dominion with killing randomly flipped monsters from a stack of monsters.
Quarriors - dominion rules - but with dice instead of cards. 

Legit deckbuilding games that aren't dominion ripoffs:
A few acres of snow -  I'm told that the Halifax Hammer breaks this game.  I refuse to read the strategy so I won't ruin it.
Eminent Domain - Fun - but I suspect that without the same level of variable setup - that this game won't have the same staying power as Dominion.

[Tombolo]

I have Tanto Cuore, which appears to be Anime Dominion with Maids.  I haven't actually played it, though.

[Kirian]

I enjoy reading his articles on game balance and stuff and enjoyed the Street Fighter tutorial he did.  All I really knew about him otherwise was that Kongai and Puzzle Strike are moderately fun.

Aren't there a bunch of Dominion ripoffs at this point?  I don't know as much about the games scene as I'd like but my impression was that Dominion had practically inspired a new deckbuilder sub-genre of games.

The clones I've played:
Thunderstone - basic dominion rules with monster killing.
Puzzle Strike - basic dominion rules with colored actions and direct player conflict instead of VP Gaining
Resident Evil - basic dominion with killing randomly flipped monsters from a stack of monsters.
Quarriors - dominion rules - but with dice instead of cards. 

Legit deckbuilding games that aren't dominion ripoffs:
A few acres of snow -  I'm told that the Halifax Hammer breaks this game.  I refuse to read the strategy so I won't ruin it.
Eminent Domain - Fun - but I suspect that without the same level of variable setup - that this game won't have the same staying power as Dominion.

Other clones:

Ascension (multiple expansions): basic Dominion rules, but two different currencies and one big randomized stack of gainable cards, as well as some permanents.
Penny Arcade: similar to Ascension with two different currencies, with piles that can only be purchased with one currency or another and randomized starts.

As far as I can tell, neither game has any dead cards--PA might have something like Curse/Confusion, but I'm unsure.

I haven't played any other games that aren't essentially clones, other than those CF mentions.

[Davio]

Well, icesphere, I think in theory you could maintain the site with fan-cards only. But that diminishes the value of the site as people want to test out fan-cards with the original cards to see how they mix and match. And that's not going to be allowed anymore.

Maaaaaybe you could even keep the site if it would only allow players to play against the computer, but common courtesy (not sure on the legal front) dictates that you should close shop and I understand that once Funsockets goes live they want to make money. Not that your site has so many people playing that Funsockets will miss out on much, but there's always the risk that once Iso goes down everyone will move over to the next best free thing and that could be your site.

It would be überamazastonishtastic if the Funsockets site would provide some sort of API to create your own fan cards!!! But this would probably be the lowest priority on their list.

[kn1tt3r]

Not that I care too much, but I'm a bit confused that even the BSW implementation will have to go down. I've always thought BSW also paid license fees or something to RGG (?) for using their art, so I wonder how this will be handled. Canceling the contracts?