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Author Topic: Video Etiquette?  (Read 25502 times)

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WanderingWinder

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Video Etiquette?
« on: June 29, 2012, 12:31:28 pm »
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Shortly after I started doing videos, we had a discussion on the etiquette and permissions of other people playing. I don't remember what we all decided, and I can't seem to find that discussion now. Can anyone point me in the right direction?
I ask because I've had somebody request to not video the semis for the qualifier, and if it were just a random game, I wouldn't care, but being as it's a tournament match, I like to have complete records of these. And so I'm not sure what I'd going to do on that.

DStu

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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2012, 12:36:18 pm »
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Postprivacy ftw.

Honestly, usually I would say respect what people say, but I can't really find a reason that speaks against the video. The logs are public anyway, so there is hardly any more information from your opponent in them. Except the speed of their play.

And I want to see the videos ;)
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theory

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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2012, 12:38:54 pm »
+1

People play differently when they are being observed and recorded.
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timchen

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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2012, 01:31:24 pm »
+2

Well, let me be clear on this.
It's fine for me if you want to record this for your own purposes. I can't say anything about that either.

I do think I have the right to request not broadcasting it.

That being said, it will be fine if you do not comment a single word on me during your recording. Seriously, I am not sure how many of your opponents will look back and watch your comment on them, but I don't think they'll feel good watching it.
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GigaKnight

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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2012, 02:16:02 pm »
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People play differently when they are being observed and recorded.

This may be a good reason to not even tell them.  Or, if you really want their permission, just wait until the end, tell them you recorded it and ask for permission to post it.  Of course, people playing against WW will probably know they're being recorded. :)

Council Room seems down right now, so I can't check; are tournament-lobby games public?  If so, I think the objections to posting a video are very weak.  So what if they include your opinion of somebody else's play?  You're not slandering them, right?  If they watch the video, maybe they'll even learn something.

I'm from Buenos Aires and I say POST EM ALL!

(I'm not from Buenos Aires)
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Kirian

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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2012, 02:43:18 pm »
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People play differently when they are being observed and recorded.

But they already are.  That's what the logs are for; they are publicly available and posted in a results thread.  And more people are going to look at logs for the semis or finals than any other matches since olneyce vs. manzi.

...but I don't think they'll feel good watching it.

...unless of course they win.

I guess I really don't see much difference between WW posting a video with running commentary, and WW posting a log with running commentary.
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blackb

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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2012, 04:19:58 pm »
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I would just say: respect that he doesn't want it. Yes he can't stop you. You are kind of free to post whatever u want and its sad for all that wanted to see the video. But hey, just respect his opinion. I could understand it.
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Davio

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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2012, 04:41:54 pm »
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I would respect his wish not to broadcast it publicly.

Maybe he is playing from work and yes, that's his own problem, but that way I could see him having problems with it since YT is global and the forums and such are kind of a semi-private area.

Taking this to the extreme, I could see a judge ruling in favor of your opponent as you are invading on his privacy.
Reference for regular videotaping: http://communications-media.lawyers.com/privacy-law/Photography-or-Video-Taping-Consent.html

Internet law is a bit harder, but in this case, I would just respect his privacy, I mean he DID request it.


A better alternative may be talking. Do you know what his reason is not to be taped?
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Ozle

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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2012, 05:19:07 pm »
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Talking about the law is a bit far surely? Nobody is going to sue over this are they

If opponent asks you not to post, then just respect that. He could be embarissed by his bad play, or have a sneaky strategy he wants to keep to himself.
Yeah I know there are logs so it doesn't really matter, but if he asks I cant see why not.

But yes, there is the sympton that being recorded makes you play differently, I know if you told me I was being recorded I would play a lot slower and double think everything to make sure, but then im not as good as you and am quite self concious.

So I would record them for your own records, and then if you want to post them afterwards, ask the person after the match, or near to the end would be better in case they quickly resign
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greatexpectations

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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2012, 05:24:43 pm »
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saying there are logs is a weak argument though.  WW has like 10,000 game logs and like 150 videos, and if you step back to all of dominion there are hundreds of thousands of logs and maybe what 200 videos? no one is just going to randomly read through logs of all of his games vs. another top player for fun, but people might be more inclined to watch one of a relative handful of videos about a game.

and another issue is that the videos don't offer any way for a competitor to explain themselves or defend against any comments you make short of making their own video.  most logs get no attention, and if they do they are posted in this forum where people can easily explain and defend themselves.

that being said i really don't care if anyone ever videos me.  it doesn't bother me at all, but i can see why some might not like it.
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Ozle

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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2012, 05:32:14 pm »
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I agree, video me all you like, just dont tell me until afterwards!
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GigaKnight

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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2012, 05:46:01 pm »
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most logs get no attention, and if they do they are posted in this forum where people can easily explain and defend themselves.

These logs are going to get a LOT of attention either way.  This only comes up because it's a tournament; WW is agreeable about not recording people in normal games.

I think it would be a pretty fair stipulation of the tournament to say "your games will be scrutinized, will be recorded in the logs, and may be recorded as video".  If you don't like that, drop out of the tourney.  You can bet that if you make it to nationals, you're going to be scrutinized a LOT.  So I don't think we do anybody a service by pretending nobody's watching these games.

Unless he has an explicit right to NOT have his game recorded, I don't see a reason not to.  If you want to compete on a public stage, you have to be willing to take public scrutiny.
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rrenaud

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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2012, 05:49:26 pm »
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The players can always respond with comments.

If watching the video is going to hurt your feelings, you could just not watch the video.  The better option is to be more rational.  The feedback is either wrong and should be discarded, or right and should be contemplated and perhaps cause some future play adjustments.

Of course, I'd still honor his wishes, even if they are crazy, just like I let people disable my point counter.
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GigaKnight

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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2012, 06:04:03 pm »
+1

Of course, I'd still honor his wishes, even if they are crazy, just like I let people disable my point counter.

I don't enjoy being rude or blowing people off, but I don't get this.  It implies that your desire to document your tournament experience is somehow less valid than another's desire to not be scrutinized (when they're going to be scrutinized anyway).  And you agree that his desire is irrational.  So you could sacrifice your desire to appease an irrational fear.  That's the "nice guy" approach, but I'm not sure it's actually kind.  Sometimes people need to be challenged in their irrationality.  Not in an "I'm going to fix them" way but in an "I understand how you feel, but I'm still going to do this" way.

Barring any legal issues, of course.  IANAL.

EDIT: I realize you're not WW. I'm just responding to how you'd react in his position.
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greatexpectations

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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2012, 06:09:41 pm »
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wow.  this started off as a player seemingly uncomfortable with being recorded and is now at a level where 'sometimes people need to be challenged in their irrationality.'? seems a bit much.

just consider recording via video as a variant.  per Donald X.'s opinion, you can play by whatever variant you want as long as both agree or are indifferent. one doesn't agree, so don't play with that variant.  simple enough.
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rrenaud

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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2012, 06:12:24 pm »
+2

What?  I post something pretty flamey and I get a response saying I wasn't flamey enough?

(Contemplated making this response even flamier, but decided against it).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule

Raising the level of abstraction a few thousand km from trivial argument about dominion to discussion about well functioning societies, that rule makes a lot of sense.
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GigaKnight

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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2012, 06:25:53 pm »
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What?  I post something pretty flamey and I get a response saying I wasn't flamey enough?

(Contemplated making this response even flamier, but decided against it).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule

Raising the level of abstraction a few thousand km from trivial argument about dominion to discussion about well functioning societies, that rule makes a lot of sense.

The Golden Rule runs both ways is my point.  "Please live with the disappointment of not recording our game" is similar to "Please live the with disappointment of having our game recorded".  Just because somebody expresses dissatisfaction with the state of things doesn't mean you bend to them.  That's also a property of a healthy, functioning society.  It's not black and white but, at the end of the day, WW just has to decide whether he's willing to make that sacrifice.

EDIT:  Or, on the other side, the one who does not want to be recorded needs to decide if he's willing to be recorded anyway.

EDIT 2: The other trouble I have with the Golden Rule is that I would actually want somebody to tell me I'm being ridiculous.  So is there like a Golden Golden Rule?  Apply the Golden Rule to others and you would have them apply the Golden Rule to you?
« Last Edit: June 29, 2012, 06:31:27 pm by GigaKnight »
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Young Nick

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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2012, 08:03:42 pm »
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The other trouble I have with the Golden Rule is that I would actually want somebody to tell me I'm being ridiculous.  So is there like a Golden Golden Rule?  Apply the Golden Rule to others and you would have them apply the Golden Rule to you?

Oh, this is too funny. In Pre-Kindergarden, we learned the Golden Rule: Treat others the way you want to be treated.
Next year, in Kindergarden (you're damn right I stepped up and passed Pre-K like a boss), there was a new rule: Treat others how they want to be treated.

That Kindergarden corollary is your Golden Golden Rule.
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Robz888

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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #18 on: June 29, 2012, 08:09:10 pm »
+9

I thought the Golden Rule was something about trashing down to only 5 cards, maybe with Bishop...
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GigaKnight

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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2012, 08:12:28 pm »
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The other trouble I have with the Golden Rule is that I would actually want somebody to tell me I'm being ridiculous.  So is there like a Golden Golden Rule?  Apply the Golden Rule to others and you would have them apply the Golden Rule to you?

Oh, this is too funny. In Pre-Kindergarden, we learned the Golden Rule: Treat others the way you want to be treated.
Next year, in Kindergarden (you're damn right I stepped up and passed Pre-K like a boss), there was a new rule: Treat others how they want to be treated.

That Kindergarden corollary is your Golden Golden Rule.

Well, I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't condescend to me.  That's how I'd like to be treated.

Really, the corollary rule breaks down in a lot of scenarios.  I'm not trying to argue the extremes of the Golden Rule, though.  I'm saying there's a sane, healthy, respectful (IMO) argument for recording anyway.
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Young Nick

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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #20 on: June 29, 2012, 08:58:32 pm »
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No condescension intended! It was more of a joke-y commentary than anything else. I still think the corollary is better than the original rule.

Clearly the corollary isn't perfect, but it still was a nice thing for age-6 Jesse to learn, and clearly it stuck. I now see how it looks like I am calling you an immature child, but that was not my intention. Sorry for the misunderstanding. :)

Edit: Emoticon to show my non-malicious intentions.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2012, 09:01:12 pm by Young Nick »
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GigaKnight

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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #21 on: June 29, 2012, 09:04:11 pm »
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No condescension intended! It was more of a joke-y commentary than anything else. I still think the corollary is better than the original rule.

Clearly the corollary isn't perfect, but it still was a nice thing for age-6 Jesse to learn, and clearly it stuck. I now see how it looks like I am calling you an immature child, but that was not my intention. Sorry for the misunderstanding. :)

Edit: Emoticon to show my non-malicious intentions.

:) Sure, no hard feelings!
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nopawnsintended

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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #22 on: June 29, 2012, 11:50:08 pm »
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The players can always respond with comments.

If watching the video is going to hurt your feelings, you could just not watch the video.  The better option is to be more rational.  The feedback is either wrong and should be discarded, or right and should be contemplated and perhaps cause some future play adjustments.

Of course, I'd still honor his wishes, even if they are crazy, just like I let people disable my point counter.

FWIW, YouTube has an excellent comments section.

I saw this earlier and wanted to post from my phone, but it didn't work.  I *love* being recorded by someone who can provide commentary about what I'm doing wrong.  Maybe it's because I have more to learn than most in the DS tourney, but I really appreciated that WW recorded our qualifying matches (made it so I could go back and look at what I was doing through the eyes of someone who has played 10+ times as much the dominion as I have).

But, that's me.  I'm not sure where I stand on recording despite the request not to record (I'd be a little gun shy), but I am definitely curious to watch how the semis went.  Were these recorded?  I understand either way :)
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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #23 on: June 30, 2012, 01:57:56 am »
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I love playing against anyone who is recording, even more so if its a top player. What an opportunity to learn!

That being said, if I made videos and someone asked me not to record a game, I would probably respect that (because why not).

.. that being said, I would very much like to see those videos and will be quite disappointed if I wont, so there is that.
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dghunter79

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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #24 on: June 30, 2012, 04:09:26 am »
+4

Etiquette reqires that you obtain permission from your opponents before posting video of them.  That's especially true because in the videos, you're judging their play.

It doesn't matter that the logs are already recorded.  Everyone who plays on isotropic should have the understanding that their games are logged.  There's no similar understanding that you'll be recorded and your play publicly analyzed by other guests to the site.  Because players have no reason to assume they've given up that privacy, courtesy requires that you request their permission before taking it from them.  This used to be well-understood.  Remember when commenters wouldn't even post the logs of their matches until they had gotten explicit permission from their opponents?

I really enjoy Wandering Winder's videos.  I especially like the ones that feature me!  But, fellas, come on. 
« Last Edit: June 30, 2012, 05:02:11 am by dghunter79 »
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