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WanderingWinder

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Video Etiquette?
« on: June 29, 2012, 12:31:28 pm »
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Shortly after I started doing videos, we had a discussion on the etiquette and permissions of other people playing. I don't remember what we all decided, and I can't seem to find that discussion now. Can anyone point me in the right direction?
I ask because I've had somebody request to not video the semis for the qualifier, and if it were just a random game, I wouldn't care, but being as it's a tournament match, I like to have complete records of these. And so I'm not sure what I'd going to do on that.

DStu

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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2012, 12:36:18 pm »
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Postprivacy ftw.

Honestly, usually I would say respect what people say, but I can't really find a reason that speaks against the video. The logs are public anyway, so there is hardly any more information from your opponent in them. Except the speed of their play.

And I want to see the videos ;)
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theory

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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2012, 12:38:54 pm »
+1

People play differently when they are being observed and recorded.
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timchen

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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2012, 01:31:24 pm »
+2

Well, let me be clear on this.
It's fine for me if you want to record this for your own purposes. I can't say anything about that either.

I do think I have the right to request not broadcasting it.

That being said, it will be fine if you do not comment a single word on me during your recording. Seriously, I am not sure how many of your opponents will look back and watch your comment on them, but I don't think they'll feel good watching it.
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GigaKnight

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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2012, 02:16:02 pm »
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People play differently when they are being observed and recorded.

This may be a good reason to not even tell them.  Or, if you really want their permission, just wait until the end, tell them you recorded it and ask for permission to post it.  Of course, people playing against WW will probably know they're being recorded. :)

Council Room seems down right now, so I can't check; are tournament-lobby games public?  If so, I think the objections to posting a video are very weak.  So what if they include your opinion of somebody else's play?  You're not slandering them, right?  If they watch the video, maybe they'll even learn something.

I'm from Buenos Aires and I say POST EM ALL!

(I'm not from Buenos Aires)
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Kirian

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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2012, 02:43:18 pm »
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People play differently when they are being observed and recorded.

But they already are.  That's what the logs are for; they are publicly available and posted in a results thread.  And more people are going to look at logs for the semis or finals than any other matches since olneyce vs. manzi.

...but I don't think they'll feel good watching it.

...unless of course they win.

I guess I really don't see much difference between WW posting a video with running commentary, and WW posting a log with running commentary.
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blackb

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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2012, 04:19:58 pm »
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I would just say: respect that he doesn't want it. Yes he can't stop you. You are kind of free to post whatever u want and its sad for all that wanted to see the video. But hey, just respect his opinion. I could understand it.
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Davio

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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2012, 04:41:54 pm »
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I would respect his wish not to broadcast it publicly.

Maybe he is playing from work and yes, that's his own problem, but that way I could see him having problems with it since YT is global and the forums and such are kind of a semi-private area.

Taking this to the extreme, I could see a judge ruling in favor of your opponent as you are invading on his privacy.
Reference for regular videotaping: http://communications-media.lawyers.com/privacy-law/Photography-or-Video-Taping-Consent.html

Internet law is a bit harder, but in this case, I would just respect his privacy, I mean he DID request it.


A better alternative may be talking. Do you know what his reason is not to be taped?
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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2012, 05:19:07 pm »
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Talking about the law is a bit far surely? Nobody is going to sue over this are they

If opponent asks you not to post, then just respect that. He could be embarissed by his bad play, or have a sneaky strategy he wants to keep to himself.
Yeah I know there are logs so it doesn't really matter, but if he asks I cant see why not.

But yes, there is the sympton that being recorded makes you play differently, I know if you told me I was being recorded I would play a lot slower and double think everything to make sure, but then im not as good as you and am quite self concious.

So I would record them for your own records, and then if you want to post them afterwards, ask the person after the match, or near to the end would be better in case they quickly resign
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greatexpectations

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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2012, 05:24:43 pm »
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saying there are logs is a weak argument though.  WW has like 10,000 game logs and like 150 videos, and if you step back to all of dominion there are hundreds of thousands of logs and maybe what 200 videos? no one is just going to randomly read through logs of all of his games vs. another top player for fun, but people might be more inclined to watch one of a relative handful of videos about a game.

and another issue is that the videos don't offer any way for a competitor to explain themselves or defend against any comments you make short of making their own video.  most logs get no attention, and if they do they are posted in this forum where people can easily explain and defend themselves.

that being said i really don't care if anyone ever videos me.  it doesn't bother me at all, but i can see why some might not like it.
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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2012, 05:32:14 pm »
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I agree, video me all you like, just dont tell me until afterwards!
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GigaKnight

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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2012, 05:46:01 pm »
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most logs get no attention, and if they do they are posted in this forum where people can easily explain and defend themselves.

These logs are going to get a LOT of attention either way.  This only comes up because it's a tournament; WW is agreeable about not recording people in normal games.

I think it would be a pretty fair stipulation of the tournament to say "your games will be scrutinized, will be recorded in the logs, and may be recorded as video".  If you don't like that, drop out of the tourney.  You can bet that if you make it to nationals, you're going to be scrutinized a LOT.  So I don't think we do anybody a service by pretending nobody's watching these games.

Unless he has an explicit right to NOT have his game recorded, I don't see a reason not to.  If you want to compete on a public stage, you have to be willing to take public scrutiny.
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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2012, 05:49:26 pm »
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The players can always respond with comments.

If watching the video is going to hurt your feelings, you could just not watch the video.  The better option is to be more rational.  The feedback is either wrong and should be discarded, or right and should be contemplated and perhaps cause some future play adjustments.

Of course, I'd still honor his wishes, even if they are crazy, just like I let people disable my point counter.
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GigaKnight

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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2012, 06:04:03 pm »
+1

Of course, I'd still honor his wishes, even if they are crazy, just like I let people disable my point counter.

I don't enjoy being rude or blowing people off, but I don't get this.  It implies that your desire to document your tournament experience is somehow less valid than another's desire to not be scrutinized (when they're going to be scrutinized anyway).  And you agree that his desire is irrational.  So you could sacrifice your desire to appease an irrational fear.  That's the "nice guy" approach, but I'm not sure it's actually kind.  Sometimes people need to be challenged in their irrationality.  Not in an "I'm going to fix them" way but in an "I understand how you feel, but I'm still going to do this" way.

Barring any legal issues, of course.  IANAL.

EDIT: I realize you're not WW. I'm just responding to how you'd react in his position.
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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2012, 06:09:41 pm »
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wow.  this started off as a player seemingly uncomfortable with being recorded and is now at a level where 'sometimes people need to be challenged in their irrationality.'? seems a bit much.

just consider recording via video as a variant.  per Donald X.'s opinion, you can play by whatever variant you want as long as both agree or are indifferent. one doesn't agree, so don't play with that variant.  simple enough.
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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2012, 06:12:24 pm »
+2

What?  I post something pretty flamey and I get a response saying I wasn't flamey enough?

(Contemplated making this response even flamier, but decided against it).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule

Raising the level of abstraction a few thousand km from trivial argument about dominion to discussion about well functioning societies, that rule makes a lot of sense.
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GigaKnight

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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2012, 06:25:53 pm »
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What?  I post something pretty flamey and I get a response saying I wasn't flamey enough?

(Contemplated making this response even flamier, but decided against it).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule

Raising the level of abstraction a few thousand km from trivial argument about dominion to discussion about well functioning societies, that rule makes a lot of sense.

The Golden Rule runs both ways is my point.  "Please live with the disappointment of not recording our game" is similar to "Please live the with disappointment of having our game recorded".  Just because somebody expresses dissatisfaction with the state of things doesn't mean you bend to them.  That's also a property of a healthy, functioning society.  It's not black and white but, at the end of the day, WW just has to decide whether he's willing to make that sacrifice.

EDIT:  Or, on the other side, the one who does not want to be recorded needs to decide if he's willing to be recorded anyway.

EDIT 2: The other trouble I have with the Golden Rule is that I would actually want somebody to tell me I'm being ridiculous.  So is there like a Golden Golden Rule?  Apply the Golden Rule to others and you would have them apply the Golden Rule to you?
« Last Edit: June 29, 2012, 06:31:27 pm by GigaKnight »
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Young Nick

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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2012, 08:03:42 pm »
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The other trouble I have with the Golden Rule is that I would actually want somebody to tell me I'm being ridiculous.  So is there like a Golden Golden Rule?  Apply the Golden Rule to others and you would have them apply the Golden Rule to you?

Oh, this is too funny. In Pre-Kindergarden, we learned the Golden Rule: Treat others the way you want to be treated.
Next year, in Kindergarden (you're damn right I stepped up and passed Pre-K like a boss), there was a new rule: Treat others how they want to be treated.

That Kindergarden corollary is your Golden Golden Rule.
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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #18 on: June 29, 2012, 08:09:10 pm »
+9

I thought the Golden Rule was something about trashing down to only 5 cards, maybe with Bishop...
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GigaKnight

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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2012, 08:12:28 pm »
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The other trouble I have with the Golden Rule is that I would actually want somebody to tell me I'm being ridiculous.  So is there like a Golden Golden Rule?  Apply the Golden Rule to others and you would have them apply the Golden Rule to you?

Oh, this is too funny. In Pre-Kindergarden, we learned the Golden Rule: Treat others the way you want to be treated.
Next year, in Kindergarden (you're damn right I stepped up and passed Pre-K like a boss), there was a new rule: Treat others how they want to be treated.

That Kindergarden corollary is your Golden Golden Rule.

Well, I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't condescend to me.  That's how I'd like to be treated.

Really, the corollary rule breaks down in a lot of scenarios.  I'm not trying to argue the extremes of the Golden Rule, though.  I'm saying there's a sane, healthy, respectful (IMO) argument for recording anyway.
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Young Nick

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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #20 on: June 29, 2012, 08:58:32 pm »
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No condescension intended! It was more of a joke-y commentary than anything else. I still think the corollary is better than the original rule.

Clearly the corollary isn't perfect, but it still was a nice thing for age-6 Jesse to learn, and clearly it stuck. I now see how it looks like I am calling you an immature child, but that was not my intention. Sorry for the misunderstanding. :)

Edit: Emoticon to show my non-malicious intentions.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2012, 09:01:12 pm by Young Nick »
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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #21 on: June 29, 2012, 09:04:11 pm »
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No condescension intended! It was more of a joke-y commentary than anything else. I still think the corollary is better than the original rule.

Clearly the corollary isn't perfect, but it still was a nice thing for age-6 Jesse to learn, and clearly it stuck. I now see how it looks like I am calling you an immature child, but that was not my intention. Sorry for the misunderstanding. :)

Edit: Emoticon to show my non-malicious intentions.

:) Sure, no hard feelings!
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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #22 on: June 29, 2012, 11:50:08 pm »
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The players can always respond with comments.

If watching the video is going to hurt your feelings, you could just not watch the video.  The better option is to be more rational.  The feedback is either wrong and should be discarded, or right and should be contemplated and perhaps cause some future play adjustments.

Of course, I'd still honor his wishes, even if they are crazy, just like I let people disable my point counter.

FWIW, YouTube has an excellent comments section.

I saw this earlier and wanted to post from my phone, but it didn't work.  I *love* being recorded by someone who can provide commentary about what I'm doing wrong.  Maybe it's because I have more to learn than most in the DS tourney, but I really appreciated that WW recorded our qualifying matches (made it so I could go back and look at what I was doing through the eyes of someone who has played 10+ times as much the dominion as I have).

But, that's me.  I'm not sure where I stand on recording despite the request not to record (I'd be a little gun shy), but I am definitely curious to watch how the semis went.  Were these recorded?  I understand either way :)
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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #23 on: June 30, 2012, 01:57:56 am »
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I love playing against anyone who is recording, even more so if its a top player. What an opportunity to learn!

That being said, if I made videos and someone asked me not to record a game, I would probably respect that (because why not).

.. that being said, I would very much like to see those videos and will be quite disappointed if I wont, so there is that.
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dghunter79

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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #24 on: June 30, 2012, 04:09:26 am »
+4

Etiquette reqires that you obtain permission from your opponents before posting video of them.  That's especially true because in the videos, you're judging their play.

It doesn't matter that the logs are already recorded.  Everyone who plays on isotropic should have the understanding that their games are logged.  There's no similar understanding that you'll be recorded and your play publicly analyzed by other guests to the site.  Because players have no reason to assume they've given up that privacy, courtesy requires that you request their permission before taking it from them.  This used to be well-understood.  Remember when commenters wouldn't even post the logs of their matches until they had gotten explicit permission from their opponents?

I really enjoy Wandering Winder's videos.  I especially like the ones that feature me!  But, fellas, come on. 
« Last Edit: June 30, 2012, 05:02:11 am by dghunter79 »
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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #25 on: June 30, 2012, 05:19:22 am »
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I say, since it's a special event, it's definitely OK to record. If the person really has a problem, then they can temporarily change their Iso name to give them some form of anonymity. And maybe, out of respect, WW can refrain from making comments on his/her play.

The point is that there are many things that can be done to give this person the bulk of what they want without depriving all the rest of us of a wonderful resource.
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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #26 on: June 30, 2012, 06:03:18 am »
+6

In future it might be a good idea to include a disclaimer in the sign up rules.
Allowing video / commentary / written tournament reports etc.
Then players can choose not to sign up if they don't like it.
The main point in tournaments from the sponsors point of view is to promote the game.
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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #27 on: June 30, 2012, 06:36:18 am »
+2

How does the golden rule work if im a sado-masochist?
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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #28 on: June 30, 2012, 06:51:32 am »
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The players can always respond with comments.

If watching the video is going to hurt your feelings, you could just not watch the video.  The better option is to be more rational.  The feedback is either wrong and should be discarded, or right and should be contemplated and perhaps cause some future play adjustments.

Of course, I'd still honor his wishes, even if they are crazy, just like I let people disable my point counter.

To be fair though, in the few videos by WW that I saw, his comments were more condescending to his opponents than, for example, what he or others would post in this forum after going through the logs.
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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #29 on: June 30, 2012, 07:51:58 am »
+1

I was also quite looking forward to WW's semi videos.  In all honesty, I'd like to see videos of every match in the tournament!

If WW isn't comfortable recording the match after all this, perhaps he could at least comment on the logs and post a video of that... although I think we'd be missing some of the in-the-moment reactions which make the videos enjoyable.
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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #30 on: June 30, 2012, 01:59:46 pm »
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Etiquette reqires that you obtain permission from your opponents before posting video of them.  That's especially true because in the videos, you're judging their play.

It doesn't matter that the logs are already recorded.  Everyone who plays on isotropic should have the understanding that their games are logged.  There's no similar understanding that you'll be recorded and your play publicly analyzed by other guests to the site.  Because players have no reason to assume they've given up that privacy, courtesy requires that you request their permission before taking it from them.  This used to be well-understood.  Remember when commenters wouldn't even post the logs of their matches until they had gotten explicit permission from their opponents?

I really enjoy Wandering Winder's videos.  I especially like the ones that feature me!  But, fellas, come on.

So, if almost everybody wants the videos, perhaps the best course is to have future tournament rules explicitly state that video recording is allowed.  Then at least it's clear from the beginning and people can choose if they want to enter with that stipulation (just as they can about the point counter and identical starting hands).

EDIT: Whoops, I missed Rabid's reply before I posted this!  I totally agree with him; go +1 him if you do, too!
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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #31 on: June 30, 2012, 06:19:41 pm »
0

The players can always respond with comments.

If watching the video is going to hurt your feelings, you could just not watch the video.  The better option is to be more rational.  The feedback is either wrong and should be discarded, or right and should be contemplated and perhaps cause some future play adjustments.

Of course, I'd still honor his wishes, even if they are crazy, just like I let people disable my point counter.

To be fair though, in the few videos by WW that I saw, his comments were more condescending to his opponents than, for example, what he or others would post in this forum after going through the logs.
I dont think WW has ever been out of line when commenting his opponents in the videos. First of all, he never actuallysays anything about the opposing player  (well, other than saying "he is a strong player, level xx" every once in a while), just the plays the guy is making. I dont see how anyone can have a problem with WW saying "I think thats a terrible play he is making there".
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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #32 on: June 30, 2012, 07:35:50 pm »
0

So, if almost everybody wants the videos, perhaps the best course is to have future tournament rules explicitly state that video recording is allowed.  Then at least it's clear from the beginning and people can choose if they want to enter with that stipulation (just as they can about the point counter and identical starting hands).

as long as WW is the only one regularly producing videos this idea seems quite silly to me.  it is the majority of tournament players catering to the whims of a single player.  if more and more playerrs start recording then by all means we can think through making that stipulation.

in a related note, there is a very similar discussion that we should probably get out of the way soon. i have heard tell that funsockets will have some method for live viewing other games in progress.  if this is the case, will/should a player involved in the game have the right to block others from viewing? will/should a player be able to opt out of logs if they so choose?

most of the same pros and cons seem to apply in this situation as well. the main difference will be that this is a paid product, so it would seem reasonable that players would have stricter control over their privacy and game information.
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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #33 on: June 30, 2012, 07:50:50 pm »
+2

So, if almost everybody wants the videos, perhaps the best course is to have future tournament rules explicitly state that video recording is allowed.  Then at least it's clear from the beginning and people can choose if they want to enter with that stipulation (just as they can about the point counter and identical starting hands).

as long as WW is the only one regularly producing videos this idea seems quite silly to me.  it is the majority of tournament players catering to the whims of a single player.  if more and more playerrs start recording then by all means we can think through making that stipulation.

in a related note, there is a very similar discussion that we should probably get out of the way soon. i have heard tell that funsockets will have some method for live viewing other games in progress.  if this is the case, will/should a player involved in the game have the right to block others from viewing? will/should a player be able to opt out of logs if they so choose?

most of the same pros and cons seem to apply in this situation as well. the main difference will be that this is a paid product, so it would seem reasonable that players would have stricter control over their privacy and game information.

I see this the other way round.
One player objecting, to the recording of something that the majority of players would like to have the option of watching.
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greatexpectations

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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #34 on: June 30, 2012, 08:25:13 pm »
+1

I see this the other way round.

well sure, we all have a different view on things.  as i said before, i personally don't care if anyone records any of my games.  but i really don't understand why people have issues with a player's wish to not be recorded. as others have pointed out, it seems like a simple application of the golden rule.

One player objecting...
i would gladly bet that a poll of the full player pool on isotropic would yield more than the one person who doesn't feel comfortable with being recorded. we can't form conclusions and establish precedents based on the opinions of a fraction of the overall community.

...to the recording of something that the majority of players would like to have the option of watching.

this argument seems completely ridiculous to me. you just used the fact that it was a single player as the focal point of your argument.  there is no conceivable way that a single player objecting would ever limit WW's video production in any meaningful way. the dude plays more games than just about anyone else on here.  even if say 10% of top players objected i still don't think the populace would notice a decline in video production.
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dghunter79

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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #35 on: June 30, 2012, 08:50:45 pm »
+4

So, if almost everybody wants the videos, perhaps the best course is to have future tournament rules explicitly state that video recording is allowed.  Then at least it's clear from the beginning and people can choose if they want to enter with that stipulation (just as they can about the point counter and identical starting hands).

Does almost everybody want the videos?  I mean, want them so much that they want to change the rules of the tournament so that players who don't want to be recorded can't have their wishes respected?  My personal feeling is, I will watch whatever Wandering Winder posts.  But if he doesn't post something, I won't really miss it.  The majority of tournament matches are unrecorded, and I don't ever feel deprived of them.  If one of WW's opponents is shy, or finds the camera distracting, then I'd rather not get to see the video then force that player to put up with something they don't like.

I do understand the perspective of "tournaments are a big deal, as far as on-line Dominion goes, especially cause there's a legitimate prize for the winner -- they should of course be broadcast for fans to appreciate."  So that a player requesting not to be filmed seems analogous to a first basemen for the Mets asking for the World Series to not be televised. 

But keep in mind, WW is not Major League Baseball.  He's just a player in the tournament; he's not part of management.  So I think there's a viable alternate perspective of "tournaments are a big deal, especially cause there's a serious prize  -- Wandering Winder should turn the camera off and become just another player in the tournament."

GigaKnight

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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #36 on: July 01, 2012, 01:33:13 am »
+1

this argument seems completely ridiculous to me. you just used the fact that it was a single player as the focal point of your argument.  there is no conceivable way that a single player objecting would ever limit WW's video production in any meaningful way. the dude plays more games than just about anyone else on here.  even if say 10% of top players objected i still don't think the populace would notice a decline in video production.

I think the crux of this issue is that's it's a tournament.  WW seems to want to document the whole thing (EDIT: whatever he can / is involved in).  Other people want to watch whatever they can get of the tournament.  Nobody's too concerned that WW is going to shut down video production if he honors people's requests to not have their games recorded (which he normally does, I believe).

So, if almost everybody wants the videos, perhaps the best course is to have future tournament rules explicitly state that video recording is allowed.  Then at least it's clear from the beginning and people can choose if they want to enter with that stipulation (just as they can about the point counter and identical starting hands).

Does almost everybody want the videos?  I mean, want them so much that they want to change the rules of the tournament so that players who don't want to be recorded can't have their wishes respected?  My personal feeling is, I will watch whatever Wandering Winder posts.  But if he doesn't post something, I won't really miss it.  The majority of tournament matches are unrecorded, and I don't ever feel deprived of them.  If one of WW's opponents is shy, or finds the camera distracting, then I'd rather not get to see the video then force that player to put up with something they don't like.

I can totally understand not changing the rules of this tournament.  I'm suggesting future tournaments would use the "variant" that players can record the video.  It resolves the issue entirely and I don't think it scares off the highest competition.  If a few people are uncomfortable with that and choose not to participate, I think that's OK.  Remember that if any of these players make it to nationals, they're going to be much more highly scrutinized than what happens during qualifiers.  If that makes them uncomfortable, then perhaps they should reconsider their participation, because THAT won't change no matter what.

I do understand the perspective of "tournaments are a big deal, as far as on-line Dominion goes, especially cause there's a legitimate prize for the winner -- they should of course be broadcast for fans to appreciate."  So that a player requesting not to be filmed seems analogous to a first basemen for the Mets asking for the World Series to not be televised. 

But keep in mind, WW is not Major League Baseball.  He's just a player in the tournament; he's not part of management.  So I think there's a viable alternate perspective of "tournaments are a big deal, especially cause there's a serious prize  -- Wandering Winder should turn the camera off and become just another player in the tournament."

Yeah, I see this perspective, too.  But I was going to suggest earlier that it would be great if there was some way to record ALL the matches.  I think if it were easy enough, that would become the default.  You can also view WW as doing both the tournament and the community a service by recording and publishing his matches.  In other words, he's filling just a small portion of what the tournament would do if it had the resources.  And, in that case, I view some as better than none, personally.

Another issue:

We keep skipping over the fact that nobody's really come up with an entirely rational explanation for the request yet.  Not that all requests have to be entirely rational to be respected, but I think that has to have *some* weight.  All other things being equal, if the request can't be reasonably justified, shouldn't that tip the scales against it?
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greatexpectations

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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #37 on: July 01, 2012, 02:49:41 am »
+1

We keep skipping over the fact that nobody's really come up with an entirely rational explanation for the request yet.  Not that all requests have to be entirely rational to be respected, but I think that has to have *some* weight.  All other things being equal, if the request can't be reasonably justified, shouldn't that tip the scales against it?

on the other side, i personally don't think there is a good reason why these should be recorded. 
  • this is (currently) the request of a single player. one. you are going to be deprived of what, 5 videos? tops? WW plays loads of games, objections from a single player will not slow down overall production. he will still put out a lot of videos for you to watch.
  • if videos are so important produce them yourselves and encourage others to produce them. you are missing out on thousands of possible videos this way, why waste so much energy focusing on 5 videos because one player objected.
  • it is very possible that video recorded games will take longer to play, due to any setup time or time to explain what is going on.

for me, it just comes down to a simple application of the golden rule.  if videos make a player uncomfortable, for rational reasons or not, their requests should be respected. the dominion community at large is a very friendly and respectful place, and this fact has massively increased my love and enjoyment for the game.  the marginal gain of this set of videos is to me simply not worth it if it makes anyone feel uncomfortable.  first and foremost, dominion is a game, let's not lose sight of that.
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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #38 on: July 01, 2012, 03:06:14 am »
+1

If someone has a bizarre thing against table talk, you suck it up and shut up. If someone has a desire to not be recorded, don't record. If someone recorded a chess game I was playing IRL, I wouldn't necessarily mind but would sure as hell want to have the option of declining, if it wasn't made clear beforehand that that was part of the game.
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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #39 on: July 01, 2012, 04:55:14 am »
0

I find some of this arguments against rather strange.

People play differently when they are being observed and recorded.
Maybe yes, but it's kind of irrational, because they neither see a camera, nor does the video contain more information than a log (despite speed of play)

This one puzzles me the most:
Quote
Maybe he is playing from work and yes, that's his own problem, but that way I could see him having problems with it since Youtube is global and the forums and such are kind of a semi-private area.
Youtube might be global, but WanderingWinders channel is hidden as much as this forum, or even more so. Just because people go to youtube watching Justin Bieber or Rick Astley, they won't magically all see Dominion Videos. The Videos kind of have 100 hits each, most posts here have more.
And the work thing, I don't see what that has to do with it, you don't see the background of WWs opponent, nor do you see the time when the game takes place.

Quote
just consider recording via video as a variant.  per Donald X.'s opinion, you can play by whatever variant you want as long as both agree or are indifferent. one doesn't agree, so don't play with that variant.
It's quite hard for me to consider it a variante as much as allowing (not) to eat while gaming to be a variante. It's just called so to get it in this setting, otherwise I don't see why I should consider it a variante.


Not that I'm clearly on the side "just record", but they already disturbed me when I first read them, and now I had to read them again...

I think for this time just don't record, and consider to write it in tournament rules. There's not a much stronger invasion to privacy then there already is with logs, and saying your opinion to something has nothing to do with privacy.
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GigaKnight

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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #40 on: July 01, 2012, 05:44:24 am »
+1

We keep skipping over the fact that nobody's really come up with an entirely rational explanation for the request yet.  Not that all requests have to be entirely rational to be respected, but I think that has to have *some* weight.  All other things being equal, if the request can't be reasonably justified, shouldn't that tip the scales against it?

on the other side, i personally don't think there is a good reason why these should be recorded. 
  • this is (currently) the request of a single player. one. you are going to be deprived of what, 5 videos? tops? WW plays loads of games, objections from a single player will not slow down overall production. he will still put out a lot of videos for you to watch.
  • if videos are so important produce them yourselves and encourage others to produce them. you are missing out on thousands of possible videos this way, why waste so much energy focusing on 5 videos because one player objected.
  • it is very possible that video recorded games will take longer to play, due to any setup time or time to explain what is going on.

for me, it just comes down to a simple application of the golden rule.  if videos make a player uncomfortable, for rational reasons or not, their requests should be respected. the dominion community at large is a very friendly and respectful place, and this fact has massively increased my love and enjoyment for the game.  the marginal gain of this set of videos is to me simply not worth it if it makes anyone feel uncomfortable.  first and foremost, dominion is a game, let's not lose sight of that.

Ok, I spoke too strongly when I say "nobody's really come up with an entirely rational explanation."  Clearly there have been rational explanations of why people in general don't want to be recorded.  But I'm still not buying the argument *here*.  It's a tournament to determine who plays on a national stage.  Scrutiny comes at the players whether they like it or not.  If it's just to prevent WW from stating his opinion one's play... wat?  Like, that makes no sense to me.  If WW posted a post-game video analysis, would the player care?  Do you think the player has a right to ask WW not to publish his thoughts on the game?  I don't.

I'm very much assuming that nationals will be played in public with observers.  IF I'm wrong about that, it pretty much destroys my main position.  But tournaments are part competition and part promotion, so I feel like that's a safe assumption.

"People play differently when observed / recorded" - Yep, that's part of a tournament.  People are going to observe live at nationals; now's a good time to get over it if you really want to show up there.
"playing from work" - Rational but a terrible reason to inflict the recording limitation on everybody else, IMO.
"privacy" - there is no privacy at nationals (I assume).
"bad play / sneaky strategy" - So he's going to be embarrassed at nationals?  And the logs will be published; sneaky play won't stay sneaky.
"defend oneself" - same as on a forum, IMO.  You post in the comments if you want to defend yourself from what somebody else claims.
"just consider recording via video as a variant" - FWIW, I'm OK with this.  That's why I think I suggested stating explicitly in future tourneys.  That's not really a rational reason to request no recording though.  I mean, "we didn't agree we would do that" doesn't explain why you don't want it to happen.  And, in this case, maybe he doesn't need to since it wasn't agreed upon ahead of time.
"It doesn't matter that the logs are already recorded." - I simply disagree about this. It's all public record. I don't think there should be an expectation of privacy (as it pertains to your play) or expectation of lack of analysis.
"comments were more condescending to his opponents" - If the player's just saying "please try to be polite about me" then I have no problem with it.  By all means, a video recorder should try to treat their opponents with respect at all times while commenting.  That's not the same thing as recording itself, though.
"would yield more than the one person who doesn't feel comfortable with being recorded" - Ok, but 1) that's not a reason why they'd feel uncomfortable.  And 2), we're not talking about all players in all games.  Again, this is for nationals.
"there is no conceivable way one player..." - see above
"The majority of tournament matches are unrecorded" - That's the state of things right now.  See below:

There's kind question of what the Dominion community's tournament culture is going to be.  You say there's not much *to* record and I very much disagree.  Publicity is how you keep a community growing.  I keep thinking of the Starcraft community as I think about this.  At regular intervals, www.reddit.com/r/starcraft has stories of people who became pure, regular spectators of the game because they were watching a tournament with a friend / relative.  Those people aren't going to stay spectators unless there's something for them to spectate.

Dominion isn't Starcraft and never will be, but here's another way to think about it:  A tournament is a bunch of story lines with ups, downs, heroes and villains.  Ideally, you'd want to capture as many of personalities and story lines as possible, because that's what draws people in and gets fans invested.  And it's important to keep the story lines as continuous as possible.  Watching WW progress through the tournament is a story all by itself and, if he doesn't record, part of the story is missing.  If he's eliminated, then there's no clear end of the story.  If he advances, then a middle chapter of the story is mysteriously missing.

It's not like any of this is the end of the world, of course.  It is "just 5 videos", but hey're at an important time.  The fact that WW even posted this shows that he really wants to record, IMO; otherwise he would just not do it.  I believe it's important to him and I don't think it's fair to expect him to give that up without a good reason.
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Teproc

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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #41 on: July 01, 2012, 05:56:47 am »
+1

The thing is, you don't have to understand WHY he doesn't want the game to be recorded. You just have to accept that he doesn't.

I really don't understand how this is still a discussion. He doesn't want the game to be recorded, it shouldn't be recorded, even if his reasons for it are "irrational".

The fact that a lot of people enjoy WW's videos is irrelevant. That guy doesn't play on Iso for our entertainment, he plays because, well, he likes playing Dominion. There is no way you can argue that people have a "right" to see the whole tournament. It would be nice, yes, but still.

I also don't think adding that to the sign-up rules would be a particularly good idea, because most people aren't necessarily going to read them, and they're going to feel like they've been rules-lawyered when you point it out to them if they want to object to a recording. 
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greatexpectations

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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #42 on: July 01, 2012, 01:25:42 pm »
0

I find some of this arguments against rather strange.

i don't fully agree with all of the arguments myself. but gigaknight made the ridiculous statement that no one had presented any rational arguments yet. i wanted to provide what i thought are some reasonable arguments, regardless of whether or not i disagreed.

Ok, I spoke too strongly when I say "nobody's really come up with an entirely rational explanation."  Clearly there have been rational explanations of why people in general don't want to be recorded.  But I'm still not buying the argument *here*. 

all of your arguments hinge on the fact that there will be some intense scrutiny at nationals. will there be?  maybe, maybe not.  but that is irrelevant.  you know coming in that the games will be played in public at a gaming convention. (even there, spectators would almost certainly not be allowed to sit or stand over a player in a way that made them feel uncomfortable.) there was no such understanding here. if you want to insist that a rule is put in place next tournament, fine, you are free to do that. but for this tournament and any instance where it is not specified, it seems perfectly reasonable to respect the player's wishes.  there is simply no need at all to discuss this any further.

now if you want to discuss whether or not this rule should be specified at the start of tournaments that is another matter.  and not a single person has commented on my speculation about funsockets. see below:

in a related note, there is a very similar discussion that we should probably get out of the way soon. i have heard tell that funsockets will have some method for live viewing other games in progress.  if this is the case, will/should a player involved in the game have the right to block others from viewing? will/should a player be able to opt out of logs if they so choose?

most of the same pros and cons seem to apply in this situation as well. the main difference will be that this is a paid product, so it would seem reasonable that players would have stricter control over their privacy and game information.
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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #43 on: July 01, 2012, 01:33:48 pm »
+1

now if you want to discuss whether or not this rule should be specified at the start of tournaments that is another matter.

I think we all agree it is too late to change the rules of this event.
We are recommending it as a new rule for the future.

In future it might be a good idea to include a disclaimer in the sign up rules.
Allowing video / commentary / written tournament reports etc.
Then players can choose not to sign up if they don't like it.
The main point in tournaments from the sponsors point of view is to promote the game.

So, if almost everybody wants the videos, perhaps the best course is to have future tournament rules explicitly state that video recording is allowed.  Then at least it's clear from the beginning and people can choose if they want to enter with that stipulation (just as they can about the point counter and identical starting hands).

Bold added to quotes.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2012, 01:36:13 pm by Rabid »
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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #44 on: July 01, 2012, 01:43:58 pm »
0

I think we all agree it is too late to change the rules of this event.
We are recommending it as a new rule for the future.

right.  but reading gigaknight's posts it doesn't seem like he is in line with that first part, hence my responses. at this point, the two things to discuss are:

1. should video recording be specified at the beginning of tournaments?
2. should funsockets' potential live look in feature and/or logs be able to be disabled by one of the players involved in the game?

now for number 1 i personally think it should be specified as any variants currently are - if both agree then sure. but this is largely an irrelevant question because isotropic will only be around for a few more months. question number 2 is much more interesting though, i think.  we can't just say 'logs exist, therefore videos are not too far of a leap' because well, it is no longer just an appeal to tradition.  we have some degree of influence on whether the logs exist and how they might be implemented. additionally, because people are likely paying for this format, should they have tighter control over what can easily be viewed as personal information?  people paying for a product might not want game play totals, poor performance, or any of their regular opponents made public.
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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #45 on: July 01, 2012, 01:51:52 pm »
+1

"privacy" - there is no privacy at nationals (I assume).

If privacy is something a person values, then they'll want it as long as possible, even if they know that eventually it will be taken away. So do we respect those wishes for privacy?

Quote from: GigaKnight
"defend oneself" - same as on a forum, IMO.  You post in the comments if you want to defend yourself from what somebody else claims.

If you can't see that there's an asymmetry between the outreach of a video and the comments on a video, then I don't want to be a part of team "rational".
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GigaKnight

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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #46 on: July 01, 2012, 02:22:30 pm »
0

Put simply: I think the community is better-served with recording as many matches as possible.  I came on stronger at the beginning because I thought this was pretty clear cut and the community would want and expect as much tournament recording as possible, as it does in virtually every other competitive community I've ever encountered.  From my impression of those communities, a request to not be recorded at a competitive event is totally unheard-of.  It's preposterous.  I didn't think it would be different here; It appears I was mistaken.

Anyway, if somebody doesn't like their play recorded, we can all give our opinions but it's up to the recorder to decide if he wants to honor it.  Personally, I won't get bent out of shape if WW still records the videos; I would prefer that he does.  I don't think all requests / desires are made equal and I don't think *anybody's* life or reputation will be greatly affected by recording.

That said, to clarify my position, I can see a good argument for "it wasn't clear that this would be expected of me".  I think this is partially mitigated by the fact that it's a tournament and players should expect scrutiny and analysis when participating in one.  Mitigated further by going to nationals, where I would never have an expectation of gameplay privacy.  Maybe a preference and hope, but not an expectation.

So, regardless of what happens in this tournament, I think it's a good idea to specify that video recording is allowed in future tournaments.  Then it's purely a courtesy issue if somebody doesn't want to be recorded; there's no question about the rules / expectations.  It does feel a little weird to add a positive rule like that, but it's also what happened with the point counter and identical starting hands.  It's the same situation, IMO; if somebody doesn't like the point counter and didn't read the entry rules, yeah, they might feel "rules-lawyered" when it's on during the match.  Oh well; I'm not too worried about that.
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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #47 on: July 01, 2012, 04:30:36 pm »
+1

From my impression of those communities, a request to not be recorded at a competitive event is totally unheard-of.  It's preposterous.  I didn't think it would be different here; It appears I was mistaken.

You were wrong. Scrabble, a game with a community incredibly similar to ours in some ways, has often had people request not to be recorded.

People at non-national chess tournaments often have no desire to be recorded.

It's not about whether its within someone's rights to record: its about maintaining a generally courteous community that respects people's wishes. The players wish to not be recorded vastly supersedes your wish to view their game. If WW wanted to record for personal use (say, as some people might in chess if they have a condition preventing them from taking normal notation), that's a completely separate issue.

Keep in mind these two last points:
1) This is a qualifying tournament, not a national tournament. There is quite a large difference there.
2) We have game-logs giving us the vast majority of information anyways.
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GigaKnight

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Re: Video Etiquette?
« Reply #48 on: July 02, 2012, 02:20:47 pm »
0

From my impression of those communities, a request to not be recorded at a competitive event is totally unheard-of.  It's preposterous.  I didn't think it would be different here; It appears I was mistaken.

You were wrong. Scrabble, a game with a community incredibly similar to ours in some ways, has often had people request not to be recorded.

People at non-national chess tournaments often have no desire to be recorded.

It's not about whether its within someone's rights to record: its about maintaining a generally courteous community that respects people's wishes. The players wish to not be recorded vastly supersedes your wish to view their game. If WW wanted to record for personal use (say, as some people might in chess if they have a condition preventing them from taking normal notation), that's a completely separate issue.

Keep in mind these two last points:
1) This is a qualifying tournament, not a national tournament. There is quite a large difference there.
2) We have game-logs giving us the vast majority of information anyways.

Ah, very interesting.  My experience is primarily what I've seen of video game communities.  If it's logistically feasible to record, it's pretty much assumed (again, in my experience).  In many games, replays are automatically saved and can be distributed by any player who participated.  Go one further: more and more players now *live stream* their play so fans can watch as it happens.  There's basically no concept of somebody being uncomfortable with having their play recorded, unless they're secretly practicing something, which they'd never do in that scenario anyway.  They'd practice that with a trusted partner.

Compare this to online Dominion:  Just as in video games, you never see the player themselves; the only "privacy" to really consider is the strategy and play (not their physical appearance or mannerisms).  Well, with public logs (analogous to replays), that's all public anyway, so I'm still not seeing the reason it's a problem.  Not that I have see that to accept that it is a problem, but perhaps there's some middle ground that could be reached if somebody who really doesn't want to be recorded would speak up and explain why.

The players wish to not be recorded vastly supersedes your wish to view their game.

I wasn't saying it did; I agree with you.  With no over-arching community standard, the players in the game make the decision.  Just as courtesy is a good reason not to record, I think there good reasons to record, as well.
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