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[Jorbles]

I've been trying Masquerade/Ambassador against double Ambassador and Ambassador/Silver openings lately, and have had some success with it. I'm not totally convinced though and wanted the community to weigh in on it. Here's the examples I have so far. It's worked, but the games are complex and I was hoping some more analysis might help.

Game #1:
Ambassador, Courtyard, Explorer, Haven, Masquerade, Monument, Pawn, Philosopher's Stone, Potion, Smugglers, and Workshop
Default card selection was used.  The point tracker will be available.
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#1 Jorbles: 36 points (5 Provinces and 2 Duchies); 21 turns
         opening: Masquerade / Ambassador
         [28 cards] 2 Havens, 1 Ambassador, 1 Masquerade, 1 Philosopher's Stone, 7 Coppers, 6 Silvers, 3 Golds, 2 Duchies, 5 Provinces

#2 nikdo: 25 points (3 Provinces, 2 Duchies, and an Estate); 21 turns
       opening: Silver / Ambassador
       [23 cards] 3 Ambassadors, 1 Explorer, 3 Coppers, 3 Silvers, 1 Potion, 6 Golds, 1 Estate, 2 Duchies, 3 Provinces

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201206/28/game-20120628-080015-a95af4b1.html

It worked out here, though looking at our decks I think it might be because my deck handled terminal collision a little better. It seemed like a good idea because it was a big moneyish board, but he clearly ended up with more treasure in his deck. (Sidenote: I picked up that Potion in case it really looked like I was losing the Ambassador/Masq pingpong really heavily because then P. Stones would be strong. I managed to keep my deck size down so I just shoved it in his deck when I got the chance.)

Game #2

Ambassador, Border Village, City, Laboratory, Market, Masquerade, Peddler, Treasure Map, Venture, and Warehouse
Default card selection was used.  The point tracker will be available.
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#1 Jorbles: 32 points (5 Provinces and 2 Estates); 15 turns
         opening: Masquerade / Ambassador
         [29 cards] 10 Peddlers, 3 Markets, 3 Warehouses, 1 Border Village, 1 Masquerade, 1 Copper, 2 Silvers, 1 Gold, 2 Estates, 5 Provinces

#2 fisher: 19 points (3 Provinces and an Estate); 15 turns
        opening: Treasure Map / Ambassador
        [26 cards] 2 Ambassadors, 2 Treasure Maps, 2 Warehouses, 9 Coppers, 3 Silvers, 4 Golds, 1 Estate, 3 Provinces

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120627-175418-aa80687b.html
This game was a little more complex, he went for a Treasure Map/Warehouse strategy that I think was really hurt by his Ambassador opening. I used my Masquerade/Ambassador to set up a Peddler spamming engine. Masquerade let's you trash, while giving you a shot at getting a key $5 (those Markets were huge on this board). He struggled to get to $4 after his opening, but did get his TMs to line up eventually.

Anyhow, though I've had success with it, I am not totally convinced that Masquerade/Ambassador is any better than Double Ambassador, and may even be worse. What's the community think?

[blueblimp]

Game #1: Ambassador is skippable on strong BM+X boards, and this is a prime example, since there's no village and no point to massing Havens/Pawns, and since Courtyard+BM and Monument+BM are among the best there is (and Masq+BM is pretty good too!). I'm not sure which of CY, Monument, Masq is a better route against Amb/Silver on this board, but I think any of them would favour you.

[jonts26]

Ambassador is stating to get the chapel effect from long ago, where people feel the need to buy it in every game regardless of set up. It's only mediocre in big money province games. A bit better in colony games. Like chapel, however, it is incredible amazing in engines.

The first game screams big money. There is no engine at all. Masq/silver is probably the right opening. Ignore the amb completely. If your opponent goes heavy ambassador anyway, consider a second masq. Second game is more complicated. I'd probably ignore the masquerade and try to thin down quickly and amass markets into peddlers. Cities likley trigger pretty quickly. With this deck, you can start feeding curses to the other player quickly enough. I think masq/BM might still be pretty fast, but it's not so clear.

[blueblimp]

For Game #2, buying all Peddlers then (almost?) all Cities seems like the best approach to me, but I don't know the best way to get there. You obviously want a Market quickly for the +buy. Masq/Silver will get you there fastest, but its trashing is probably too slow to survive against Amb/Silver. If there were cheaper +buy available, Amb/Warehouse would be tempting, but it's too hard to buy a Market that way. Masq/Amb also makes it difficult to buy a Market (since you need 5 coppers for it). I think I'd go Amb/Silver. BV+Market will also help a ton if you happen to hit $6.

Once you have tons of Peddlers and Cities, you can easily double-Province while spamming Curses into your opponent's deck, so BM+Masq does not seem scary.

[Jorbles]

On Game #1 general consensus seems to be no Ambassador is best, which is probably true, but if your opponent really aggressively Ambassadors you can't totally ignore it or else you'll be swamped with Coppers/Estates in the midgame, and they'll likely overtake you. Masquerade is definitely better at dealing with all that junk than Monument or Courtyard, so it's probably the best opening. Maybe getting a second one after the first reshuffle if your opponent Ambs heavily.

On Game #2 after hearing everyone's thoughts I still think I like Masquerade/Ambassador best of all the openings. Ambassador/Ambassador kills your early economy. Masq/Silver and Amb/Silver don't seem aggressive enough in terms of deck slimming. An X/Silver opening has a greater chance of hitting $5, but you need to get your deck slim fast so you can line up those cantrips. There isn't any draw aside from Masquerade so playing the cantrips back to back is key to getting Peddlers. Masq/Amb balances aggressive trashing without sacrificing your economy as much.

Edit: Forgot about Warehouse, which isn't really draw, but can line up cantrips, but a Warehouse opening really doesn't seem worth it. Definitely useful after the first shuffle buy though.

[ednever]

Masq+Silver, transition into 2xWarehouse/Market. Then pick up Peddlers. Then Cities?

From an attack perspective Amb is like a really weak curser. Masq handles cursers really well. Warehouse flips through what Masq doesn't handle and lets you play the Masq more often.

When you get the cities going a little extra copper isn't going to kill you.

Ed

[qmech]

On Game #1 general consensus seems to be no Ambassador is best, which is probably true, but if your opponent really aggressively Ambassadors you can't totally ignore it or else you'll be swamped with Coppers/Estates in the midgame, and they'll likely overtake you.

I don't think that's a risk.  A small deck is no advantage, and Coppers and Estates aren't that much of a problem either.  I actually like Monument/Philosopher's Stone here against someone committed to Ambassadors, although it wouldn't do so well against Courtyard or Masquerade.

I can't see what Masquerade/Ambassador has going for it.  What does it have over either double Ambassador or double Masquerade?  (Neither of which I particularly like.)

[blueblimp]

On Game #2 after hearing everyone's thoughts I still think I like Masquerade/Ambassador best of all the openings. Ambassador/Ambassador kills your early economy. Masq/Silver and Amb/Silver don't seem aggressive enough in terms of deck slimming. An X/Silver opening has a greater chance of hitting $5, but you need to get your deck slim fast so you can line up those cantrips. There isn't any draw aside from Masquerade so playing the cantrips back to back is key to getting Peddlers. Masq/Amb balances aggressive trashing without sacrificing your economy as much.

Edit: Forgot about Warehouse, which isn't really draw, but can line up cantrips, but a Warehouse opening really doesn't seem worth it. Definitely useful after the first shuffle buy though.

I disagree here, because Masq and Amb are pretty likely to collide since Masq draws, and then they become more likely to collide as your deck shrinks. Since Amb already returns 2 cards per play, Masq's 1 trash per play doesn't speed up your trashing by all that much even in an ideal case where you have no collisions.

And getting Market is huge since it's the only +buy.

[blueblimp]

Masq+Silver, transition into 2xWarehouse/Market. Then pick up Peddlers. Then Cities?

From an attack perspective Amb is like a really weak curser. Masq handles cursers really well. Warehouse flips through what Masq doesn't handle and lets you play the Masq more often.

When you get the cities going a little extra copper isn't going to kill you.

Ed

The thing is, Amb is both a weak curser and a weak chapel. Every time Amb gets played to return 2 cards, the net deck size change is 3. Compare to Masq's 1. It's hard to keep up with the Amb player if you are using only a Masq for trashing. With Warehouse, maybe... but it'll still be difficult.

[cherdano]

But masquerade immediately gets better when your opponents is getting rid of his worst cards. And meanwhile, you are getting ahead in the crucial $5 buys (market!). In addition, you can skip some trash with warehouse (which of course will also help getting peddlers a bit later). I don't think it's right to get any ambassador in game #2.

[DG]

I the second game is an unusual kingdom anyway so it doesn't really suit any general rule. The openings might be quite balanced. I think masquerade/silver is probably best having excellent continuations with 6 to spend and still the chance to get markets and warehouses with worse draws. The masquerade is going to be a good long term card against an opponent with a trimmed deck too.