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Author Topic: With my Dominion Time Machine...  (Read 50794 times)

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Jedit

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Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #50 on: June 29, 2012, 05:23:34 pm »
0

Chapel being too cheap is no reason to make Familiar too cheap.  When you want Familiars most, between the first and second reshuffles, their opportunity cost is only $4.  Dropping that to $3 would be obscenely overpowered for a cantrip curser, which as a card is at least as strong as Sea Hag - perhaps stronger, as it cycles when the Curses are gone while Sea Hag is effectively dead - and not all that far off the power level of Witch.
Can you explain what you mean when you say the "opportunity cost is only $4"? This doesn't really make much sense to me. The opportunity cost is pretty high -- you have to buy an otherwise useless Potion at the opening, then buy the Familiar -- and it's hard to quantify that in $.

After the first reshuffle you will probably have 12 cards and the maximum value of those cards is $12, more probably $9-10.  So on the second run through your deck every card has a rounded average value of $1, and over the extended series the equivalent of a $3p hand on turn 3 is a $4 hand.
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tlloyd

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Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #51 on: June 29, 2012, 05:31:51 pm »
0

I think I mentioned this in an earlier discussion, but the fix for Masquerade is actually pretty simple:

"Each player passes a card from his hand to the left at once. Then, If you passed a card, you may trash a card from your hand."

This still allows you to trade something for nothing, it just prevents you from doing it more than once. And while new players might be confused by the mandatory "pass a card" and the seemingly optional "If you did" language, that is easily dealt with in the FAQ. Besides, there are plenty of cards that are somewhat confusing to new players. I doubt this wording would puzzle anyone for long.

I wonder if that's too easy to misunderstand as meaning anyone may trash. Dominion cards don't use "you" generically, but casual players might not notice that rule, and misinterpret "If you passed a card, you may trash one" as meaning 'anyone who passed a card may trash one'.

That's a fair point, but as you say the erroneous interpretation goes against standard Dominion usage. The way I see it, if putting a "$0" on the curses led some people to believe you could dish out a targeted curse with an extra buy, then no wording is completely idiot-proof.
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ftl

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Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #52 on: June 29, 2012, 05:34:22 pm »
0

No wording is idiot-proof, but the point is to steer people towards the right way...

If I had read the "if you passed a card" wording, I would have read that to mean "anyone who passed a card", and would have probably played that way until I read the faq or online guide or something.
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chester

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Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #53 on: June 29, 2012, 06:01:35 pm »
0

"pass"ing a card is defined in the rulebook, just like "gain" and "trash".  A simple note in the rules here would take care of the corner cases, and not confuse anyone with strange wording on the card.

Back to the original question, I've always been a little unnerved by Kings Court/Scheme.  I know it works as designed, and nobody else seems to have a problem with it, but to me it seems to be on a completely different level than any other 2-card combo.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #54 on: June 29, 2012, 06:08:15 pm »
+2

Chapel being too cheap is no reason to make Familiar too cheap.  When you want Familiars most, between the first and second reshuffles, their opportunity cost is only $4.  Dropping that to $3 would be obscenely overpowered for a cantrip curser, which as a card is at least as strong as Sea Hag - perhaps stronger, as it cycles when the Curses are gone while Sea Hag is effectively dead - and not all that far off the power level of Witch.
Can you explain what you mean when you say the "opportunity cost is only $4"? This doesn't really make much sense to me. The opportunity cost is pretty high -- you have to buy an otherwise useless Potion at the opening, then buy the Familiar -- and it's hard to quantify that in $.

After the first reshuffle you will probably have 12 cards and the maximum value of those cards is $12, more probably $9-10.  So on the second run through your deck every card has a rounded average value of $1, and over the extended series the equivalent of a $3p hand on turn 3 is a $4 hand.

I don't really think this is an appropriate interpretation of "opportunity cost". Opportunity cost is what you could have had instead had you chosen not to pursue a particular endeavor. If you opt to not go for Familiar, you could have for example bought Silver instead of Potion, and then a $5 card instead of Familiar (since the $3+Potion => $3+Silver=$5). So your opportunity cost is at least a Silver + a $5 card to get the first Familiar.
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rinkworks

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Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #55 on: June 29, 2012, 07:47:10 pm »
0

After the first reshuffle you will probably have 12 cards and the maximum value of those cards is $12, more probably $9-10.  So on the second run through your deck every card has a rounded average value of $1, and over the extended series the equivalent of a $3p hand on turn 3 is a $4 hand.

The problem with that is that averages go out the window when you draw an actual hand.  Because, let's say you open Silver/Silver, and you get them both, plus three Coppers, on Turn 3.  You can't say that that's a $5 hand, because that's roughly your average card value at that point.  It's a $7 hand, and the reason you have to look at it that way is because it means Turn 4 is really going to suck, average card value notwithstanding.

For any hand with a Potion card in it, you have to consider that that Potion could have been a Silver.  Not $1, because you wouldn't have bought a Copper with that money but Silver.  Whenever you've got a $3P hand, you could have had $5 instead.  If you can buy a Golem, you could have bought a Gold.  Etc.  Thinking about it that way really helps in weighing whether or not the Potion-cost cards are worth shooting for.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2012, 07:49:48 pm by rinkworks »
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rspeer

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Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #56 on: June 29, 2012, 08:10:45 pm »
+6

This was my favorite line from Donald's explanation:

Explorer is fine, why do people even complain about Explorer. They can't all be the best $5 ever.

The particularly great part is "Explorer is fine" makes me think of this classic.

WHY YOU WANT PLUS ACTION FOR EXPLORER? IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH AS PROCURED FROM RIO GRANDE GAMES? YOU THINK NEEDS IMPROVEMENT? THEN MAYBE YOU FIND JOB AS GAME DESIGNER! YOU HAVE DRINKS WITH DONALD X VACCARINO, TRADE STORY OF MANY CARDS DESIGNED!

EXPLORER IS FINE. YOU FUCK IT, IT ONLY GET WORDY AND YOU STILL NO BUY PROVINCE. GO TO ISOTROPIC, PRACTICE WITH MANY KINGDOM OF EXPLORER. THEN YOU NOT NEED DUMB SHIT PUT ON CARD.

(check the link if you don't get the reference, I'm not actually an angry Russian)
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Dave970

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Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #57 on: July 02, 2012, 02:10:10 pm »
0

This was my favorite line from Donald's explanation:

Explorer is fine, why do people even complain about Explorer. They can't all be the best $5 ever.

The particularly great part is "Explorer is fine" makes me think of this classic.


Epic.
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werothegreat

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Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #58 on: November 17, 2014, 09:31:35 am »
+1

I'd be interested to hear if Donald X would time machine anything in Dark Ages or Guilds aside from Rebuild.
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Asper

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Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #59 on: November 17, 2014, 11:32:12 am »
+1

Played a ripoff of Dominion recently (i know, bad Asper) and it had a card that was exactly Adventurer, just that it costed 5 and was nonterminal (the game had no +action or +buy concept). It was fine. It also had something like Warehouse, which costed 3$ but only drew and discarded two cards. Seemed still okay.

Anyhow, i would reduce Adventurer's cost to 5 and add a buy (rather than an action). I would remove Woodcutter and give the buy to Chancellor. I would kill Rebuild. I would have Thief give two and Scout give one coin on play. I would remove Spy and let Feast top-deck the new card. I would add a "you may" to Moneylender and Throne Room. Going with how the new cards are, i would make all trash-for-benefits non-mandatory. I would make Pirate Ship's wording refer to the Pirate Ship Mat. I would have Masquerade pass cards only between players who have cards ("Each player sets aside a card. All players who did pass it to the next player to their left who did."). That's it.

LastFootnote

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Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #60 on: November 17, 2014, 11:45:40 am »
+1

Going with how the new cards are, i would make all trash-for-benefits non-mandatory.

Actually, apart from Butcher, this is just an accountability thing. Taxman's trashing is optional because it only trashes Treasure cards and the alternative would have been "(or reveal a hand with no Treasures)", which is way wordier. Notice that Stonemason's trashing is mandatory.

EDIT: Presumably Butcher's trashing is optional as an intentional buff to the card. Unlike Remodel, you might want to play Butcher from your hand just for the other benefits (two Coin tokens).
« Last Edit: November 17, 2014, 11:48:16 am by LastFootnote »
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Voltaire

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Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #61 on: November 17, 2014, 11:57:04 am »
+3

I would make Pirate Ship's wording refer to the Pirate Ship Mat.

This is the lone errata of Dominion I can 100% support.
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silverspawn

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Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #62 on: November 17, 2014, 12:31:47 pm »
0

Played a ripoff of Dominion recently (i know, bad Asper) and it had a card that was exactly Adventurer, just that it costed 5 and was nonterminal (the game had no +action or +buy concept). It was fine. It also had something like Warehouse, which costed 3$ but only drew and discarded two cards. Seemed still okay.

Anyhow, i would reduce Adventurer's cost to 5 and add a buy (rather than an action). I would remove Woodcutter and give the buy to Chancellor. I would kill Rebuild. I would have Thief give two and Scout give one coin on play. I would remove Spy and let Feast top-deck the new card. I would add a "you may" to Moneylender and Throne Room. Going with how the new cards are, i would make all trash-for-benefits non-mandatory. I would make Pirate Ship's wording refer to the Pirate Ship Mat. I would have Masquerade pass cards only between players who have cards ("Each player sets aside a card. All players who did pass it to the next player to their left who did."). That's it.

good opinion. 10/10
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Rubby

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Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #63 on: November 17, 2014, 12:54:59 pm »
+1

I would have Masquerade pass cards only between players who have cards ("Each player sets aside a card. All players who did pass it to the next player to their left who did.").

The thing about that is that it's probably not worth mucking with the wording to where it's awkward and annoyingly opaque to anyone who's not an experienced/knowledgeable player, just to account for a rare edge case.

That being said, if we are determined to eliminate the pin, why not just add "If you have at least 1 card in hand" to the very beginning of the text? (edit: the non-bold text, that is, after the +2 Cards)
« Last Edit: November 17, 2014, 01:06:47 pm by Rubby »
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A Drowned Kernel

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Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #64 on: November 17, 2014, 04:24:31 pm »
0

I would make Pirate Ship's wording refer to the Pirate Ship Mat.

This is the lone errata of Dominion I can 100% support.

Really? Not "you may" on throne room or "while this is in play" on bridge?
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Polk5440

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Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #65 on: November 17, 2014, 04:25:31 pm »
0

Played a ripoff of Dominion recently (i know, bad Asper) and it had a card that was exactly Adventurer, just that it costed 5 and was nonterminal (the game had no +action or +buy concept). It was fine. It also had something like Warehouse, which costed 3$ but only drew and discarded two cards. Seemed still okay.

Anyhow, i would reduce Adventurer's cost to 5 and add a buy (rather than an action). I would remove Woodcutter and give the buy to Chancellor. I would kill Rebuild. I would have Thief give two and Scout give one coin on play. I would remove Spy and let Feast top-deck the new card. I would add a "you may" to Moneylender and Throne Room. Going with how the new cards are, i would make all trash-for-benefits non-mandatory. I would make Pirate Ship's wording refer to the Pirate Ship Mat. I would have Masquerade pass cards only between players who have cards ("Each player sets aside a card. All players who did pass it to the next player to their left who did."). That's it.

good opinion. 10/10

More and more I am coming around to silverspawn's opinion that Masquerade should not pass cards at all. +2 Cards, may trash one card would be just fine with me. Is it better than the current card? Eh... I can be persuaded, where maybe I couldn't have been persuaded a year ago.

Passing cards is a fun novelty in person, but it does create issues and scenarios that are not so fun.
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Donald X.

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Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #66 on: November 17, 2014, 05:05:38 pm »
+10

I'd be interested to hear if Donald X would time machine anything in Dark Ages or Guilds aside from Rebuild.
There's an obvious one for Guilds - I'd drop the "who did" on Soothsayer. "Gain a Gold. Each other player gains a Curse and draws a card." The "who did" is there because there were complaints about the card going dead eventually. The apparently tiny amount of simplicity to be gained is worth way more to me than getting rid of the feeling that eventually you will want to stop playing Soothsayer.

I am pretty happy with Guilds apart from that, and with Dark Ages apart from Rebuild. There are cards you guys sometimes complain about, and well it's not great for me to get into strategy discussions.
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Donald X.

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Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #67 on: November 17, 2014, 05:11:02 pm »
+11

I would have Masquerade pass cards only between players who have cards ("Each player sets aside a card. All players who did pass it to the next player to their left who did.").

The thing about that is that it's probably not worth mucking with the wording to where it's awkward and annoyingly opaque to anyone who's not an experienced/knowledgeable player, just to account for a rare edge case.

That being said, if we are determined to eliminate the pin, why not just add "If you have at least 1 card in hand" to the very beginning of the text? (edit: the non-bold text, that is, after the +2 Cards)
I have a card-passing thing in Temporum (where it frequently will be the case that someone has no cards); it says "Each player with any cards in hand passes one left to the next such player, at once."

For me the entire point of Masquerade is the card-passing. The rest of the card makes that part work. If I didn't like the card-passing, the whole card would die. Any combination of card-drawing and trashing that I did would not be trying to look like Masquerade without the passing.
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Titandrake

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Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #68 on: November 17, 2014, 05:16:32 pm »
+3

I think Masq without passing is a kind of boring card like Junk Dealer. I mean, with the current version you get weird scenarios, but you also get to pretend you're Oprah when your deck is awful. You get a Curse! And you get a Curse! Curses for everybody! It's unique and cute.
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Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #69 on: November 17, 2014, 05:19:06 pm »
+3

I think Masq without passing is a kind of boring card like Junk Dealer.

Junk Dealer is one of the most fun cards in the game.
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werothegreat

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Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #70 on: November 17, 2014, 05:20:08 pm »
+1

I'd be interested to hear if Donald X would time machine anything in Dark Ages or Guilds aside from Rebuild.
There's an obvious one for Guilds - I'd drop the "who did" on Soothsayer. "Gain a Gold. Each other player gains a Curse and draws a card." The "who did" is there because there were complaints about the card going dead eventually. The apparently tiny amount of simplicity to be gained is worth way more to me than getting rid of the feeling that eventually you will want to stop playing Soothsayer.

I am pretty happy with Guilds apart from that, and with Dark Ages apart from Rebuild. There are cards you guys sometimes complain about, and well it's not great for me to get into strategy discussions.

Thanks!  *updates wiki*
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Rubby

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Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #71 on: November 17, 2014, 05:23:17 pm »
+9

I think Masq without passing is a kind of boring card like Junk Dealer. I mean, with the current version you get weird scenarios, but you also get to pretend you're Oprah when your deck is awful. You get a Curse! And you get a Curse! Curses for everybody! It's unique and cute.

And without it there would be no way for anyone ever to experience the almost indescribable thrill of: Buy a Province, trash 2 Hovels.
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Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #72 on: November 17, 2014, 05:24:24 pm »
+1

If I had a dominion time machine, I'd go FORWARD in time and play Dark Ages and Guilds.

This is a really confusing post if you're not looking at dates when you open this thread!
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Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #73 on: November 17, 2014, 05:25:12 pm »
0

I wonder when people will start saying Prince should not force you to play his action so Possession/Ambassador cannot be used to destroy people's deck (by Ambassadoring a mandatory trasher, possessing your opponent and then Princing it). I can imagine Possessed Prince of Rats becoming a thing.

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Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #74 on: November 17, 2014, 05:30:46 pm »
+11

I wonder when people will start saying Prince should not force you to play his action so Possession/Ambassador cannot be used to destroy people's deck (by Ambassadoring a mandatory trasher, possessing your opponent and then Princing it). I can imagine Possessed Prince of Rats becoming a thing.

That is such an unlikely scenario, and far too fun to pull off just one time.  If someone manages to Possess you and Prince your Rats, they deserve a round of applause and an internet.
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