Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 2 3 ... 6 [All]

Author Topic: With my Dominion Time Machine...  (Read 50044 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

sitnaltax

  • Apprentice
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 279
  • Respect: +479
    • View Profile
With my Dominion Time Machine...
« on: June 27, 2012, 08:20:23 pm »
+3

With my Dominion Time Machine, I would make the following changes, which are really startlingly few:

  • Reword Throne Room to include "you may," like King's Court
  • Change Masquerade so that the passing only happens if every player has at least one card in hand
  • Change Possession so that it can work no more than once per turn
  • Reduce the cost of Familiar to $2P
  • Remove the attack from Scrying Pool

Throne Room is just for consistency and clarity.

Masquerade removes the possibility of unbreakable pins, but doesn't otherwise change the card.

The other changes have a little more balance flavor, I suppose:

Familiar is "obviously" too strong at $2P, just as Chapel is too strong at $2. Like Chapel's low cost, this makes broadens the availability of the power card; the change would make it much less likely that you can't buy one on T3/4. The number of times where the extra $1 could be leveraged into improving a useful purchase is tiny, although I suppose that Woodcutter/Potion would be a decent opening.

I don't hate Possession, but if it's viable and there's a threat of multiple Possessions per turn, then too many times the solution is to make your deck terrible. This is an interesting direction for the game to take, but it can make the game take so unexpectedly long that I think it's worth changing.

Finally, I grant myself the chance to poke at one peeve that might not be justified: the change to Scrying Pool is to increase the speed of Scrying Pool turns, which are a peeve of mine. I hate Tournament more, but at least it's fast.
Logged

Grujah

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2237
  • Respect: +1169
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2012, 08:44:45 pm »
0

Dude, attack part is my favourite part after drawing lots of actions.

My fav combo is that + Jester. Get just what you need on opponent's deck, Jester it, then draw it with whatever (another pool if nothing else).
Its awesomely awesome when you've drawn your whole deck, than let opponent keep gold on top, Jester it, pick it up with Village, Salvage it for 6.  8) Actually done that.
Logged

sitnaltax

  • Apprentice
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 279
  • Respect: +479
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2012, 08:49:27 pm »
+1

Dude, attack part is my favourite part after drawing lots of actions.

My fav combo is that + Jester. Get just what you need on opponent's deck, Jester it, then draw it with whatever (another pool if nothing else).
Its awesomely awesome when you've drawn your whole deck, than let opponent keep gold on top, Jester it, pick it up with Village, Salvage it for 6.  8) Actually done that.

My problem isn't that it's not badass; my problem is that I can watch an entire episode of a TV show while you're taking that turn. Especially if God forbid Hamlet is on the board.
Logged

Titandrake

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2140
  • Respect: +2697
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2012, 08:57:13 pm »
+1

I'd leave Scrying Pool attack because it makes the action chain part of Scrying Pool less obvious. The discovery opportunity of "Oh wait, Scrying Pool isn't Spy, it's much better than Spy!" seems like a better thing to keep. Also, I'm pretty sure that the long turns are more a result of the deck being an action-chain, rather than Scrying Pool itself being the problem. (This is for Iso; in real life it would probably be quite horrid.)

Honestly, I'd rather Possesion not be a card, but if it must stay in the set it should work more than once per turn. It's too deliciously evil! You can't get rid of something that mean, it makes people like Morgrim7 sad :(

The rest seem reasonable, although the Masquerade case shows up so rarely that the added text might feel out of place.
Logged
I have a blog! It's called Sorta Insightful. Check it out?

werothegreat

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8165
  • Shuffle iT Username: werothegreat
  • Let me tell you a secret...
  • Respect: +9544
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2012, 09:14:59 pm »
0

The only one of these I support would be the wording change to Throne Room.  Possession is hilarious because you can play it so many times - it's the only way you can get lots of extra turns, the caveat being it's with someone else's deck, and it can't be infinite, because playing Possession in a Possessed turn only helps your opponent.  And the Masquerade pin is so rare - how often do you actually have KC, Goons and Masq all in the same Kingdom?  And while you're getting all the required cards, and trashing down to a 5 card deck, your opponent might be adopting a quicker strategy.  If I were to change any cards, it'd be Outpost, so we can finally figure out what the hell to do with Outpost and Possession, and change Ironworks to "If it would be a(n)..." so we can have our Blue Dog, and eat it, too.  Not that I'd ever take a Silver over a Great Hall, anyway.
Logged
Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.  There are plenty of other people who are actively editing.  Go bother them!

Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

eHalcyon

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8689
  • Respect: +9156
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2012, 09:17:34 pm »
0

The only one of these I support would be the wording change to Throne Room.  Possession is hilarious because you can play it so many times - it's the only way you can get lots of extra turns, the caveat being it's with someone else's deck, and it can't be infinite, because playing Possession in a Possessed turn only helps your opponent.  And the Masquerade pin is so rare - how often do you actually have KC, Goons and Masq all in the same Kingdom?  And while you're getting all the required cards, and trashing down to a 5 card deck, your opponent might be adopting a quicker strategy.  If I were to change any cards, it'd be Outpost, so we can finally figure out what the hell to do with Outpost and Possession, and change Ironworks to "If it would be a(n)..." so we can have our Blue Dog, and eat it, too.  Not that I'd ever take a Silver over a Great Hall, anyway.

Possession can be infinite in solitaire! ;)

And Masquerade pin also works with Militiate and Margrave.  And Outpost too, I think?
Logged

werothegreat

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8165
  • Shuffle iT Username: werothegreat
  • Let me tell you a secret...
  • Respect: +9544
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2012, 09:19:20 pm »
0

Possession can be infinite in solitaire! ;)

Oh happenstance, I did that once.  My head started to hurt.

And Masquerade pin also works with Militiate and Margrave.  And Outpost too, I think?

I think the point of KC-Goons is that you can still manage to get VP while having a 5-card deck.  You wouldn't have any motivation to do it with Militia or Margrave, because you wouldn't have any cards either, so neither of you would win.  And no one starts their turn with an Outpost hand, so that would be impossible.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2012, 09:21:37 pm by werothegreat »
Logged
Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.  There are plenty of other people who are actively editing.  Go bother them!

Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

eHalcyon

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8689
  • Respect: +9156
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2012, 09:26:26 pm »
0

And Masquerade pin also works with Militiate and Margrave.  And Outpost too, I think?

I think the point of KC-Goons is that you can still manage to get VP while having a 5-card deck.  You wouldn't have any motivation to do it with Militia or Margrave, because you wouldn't have any cards either, so neither of you would win.  And no one starts their turn with an Outpost hand, so that would be impossible.

No, you don't have to gain points with the pin.  What you do is you grind down their deck until they have nothing (except Copper, maybe) and then you rebuild with a huge head start.  And even as you rebuild, you can keep attacking.

With Outpost, I think the general idea was to play it, then KC-Masq to take out 3 of their cards, then KC-Masq during your Outpost turn to take out the remaining 2.
Logged

chwhite

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1065
  • Respect: +437
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2012, 10:08:06 pm »
0

There are three things I would definitely do, and a few other things I'd consider but probably pass on doing, in the interest of not mucking with a good thing.

The first two are the same as your first two: fix Throne Room and Masquerade as stated.  The third would be to improve Scout somehow, either by making it cheaper and/or looking at more cards and/or taking Curses into hand.  There's no good reason why it has to cost $4, and it is so marginal in even Intrigue-heavy setups that its power level is certainly a mistake in a way that even other bad cards aren't.

Things I might like to do but don't feel a burning need to: buff Adventurer and Counting House, put more Durations in more expansions, print the game with 16 of each Victory card (or at least 16 Provinces), to keep the ratios same in 4p as they are with 2 or 3.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2012, 10:14:33 pm by chwhite »
Logged
To discard or not to discard?  That is the question.

werothegreat

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8165
  • Shuffle iT Username: werothegreat
  • Let me tell you a secret...
  • Respect: +9544
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2012, 10:36:45 pm »
0

The third would be to improve Scout somehow, either by making it cheaper and/or looking at more cards and/or taking Curses into hand.  There's no good reason why it has to cost $4, and it is so marginal in even Intrigue-heavy setups that its power level is certainly a mistake in a way that even other bad cards aren't.

A great combo is actually Scout-Crossroads-Alt Victory.  Buy Gardens or Tunnels or something (probably Tunnels), use Scout to get them in your hand, then get the maximum amount of cards out of Crossroads.  Admittedly, it would probably make more sense at $3.
Logged
Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.  There are plenty of other people who are actively editing.  Go bother them!

Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

Robz888

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2624
  • Shuffle iT Username: Robz888
  • Respect: +3322
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2012, 11:02:59 pm »
+4

I guess I have to go back in time to right before you invented your time machine so that I can stop you from going back in time and changing Scrying Pool. I REALLY like Scyring Pool the way it is.
Logged
I have been forced to accept that lackluster play is a town tell for you.

ftl

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2028
  • Respect: +1295
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2012, 11:10:21 pm »
+1

Interestingly, the Scrying Pool works a lot nicer IRL than online. IRL when I find a bad card to keep on top of their deck, I just say "okay, keep that one for the rest of the Scrying Pools" and then the Scrying Pool is noninteractive for the rest of the turn, in terms of how much time it takes to play.
Logged

ycz6

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 673
  • Respect: +388
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2012, 11:14:22 pm »
0

Interestingly, the Scrying Pool works a lot nicer IRL than online. IRL when I find a bad card to keep on top of their deck, I just say "okay, keep that one for the rest of the Scrying Pools" and then the Scrying Pool is noninteractive for the rest of the turn, in terms of how much time it takes to play.
This, and also the cards in your hand don't move around unpredictably when you pick up a bunch of new ones at once.
Logged

Adrienaline

  • Baron
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 51
  • Respect: +16
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2012, 12:26:09 am »
+9

I guess I have to go back in time to right before you invented your time machine so that I can stop you from going back in time and changing Scrying Pool. I REALLY like Scyring Pool the way it is.

Maybe you've both already gone back in time then...
Logged

jonts26

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2742
  • Shuffle iT Username: jonts
  • Respect: +3647
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2012, 12:38:14 am »
+22

If I had a dominion time machine, I'd go FORWARD in time and play Dark Ages and Guilds.
Logged

Obi Wan Bonogi

  • Apprentice
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 254
  • Respect: +342
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2012, 12:49:27 am »
+1

Solid ideas!

My time machine trip would change all the treasures from being the same color.  Why can't my gold be gold and my silver be silver?  Was sad to see the screenshots of the official ap show this unchanged =(
Logged

Robz888

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2624
  • Shuffle iT Username: Robz888
  • Respect: +3322
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2012, 01:54:29 am »
+3

I guess I have to go back in time to right before you invented your time machine so that I can stop you from going back in time and changing Scrying Pool. I REALLY like Scyring Pool the way it is.

Maybe you've both already gone back in time then...

I've actually already made numerous trips into the past where I correct all of the Dominion timeline aberrations. This has included chasing theory into the past and preventing him from giving Laboratory a +$1 in order to justify his later placement of it on the Best $5 cards list.

I also repaired the alternate timeline where the Alliance of Engine Builders deleted Hinterlands, and created a new rule where Colony must appear in every game (but not Platinum).
Logged
I have been forced to accept that lackluster play is a town tell for you.

Obi Wan Bonogi

  • Apprentice
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 254
  • Respect: +342
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2012, 02:09:34 am »
0

I also repaired the alternate timeline where the Alliance of Engine Builders deleted Hinterlands, and created a new rule where Colony must appear in every game (but not Platinum).

Noble work, sir.
Logged

Donald X.

  • Dominion Designer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5493
  • Respect: +22133
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2012, 02:21:09 am »
+65

I'm there for you guys with the tough answers.

Main set:

The big thing is to add more replayability. There are six vanilla cards and probably five would have been fine; the obvious one to replace is Woodcutter. Woodcutter is a fine card for the main set but the other vanilla cards are all better. That means all of the +buy cards would cost $5 but I can live with that. After that, Feast adds very little. Chancellor doesn't add much and would have been better in Intrigue (where it came from); the fact that it's a puzzler is way better in an expansion than in the main set. And finally there's Spy. Spy is slow to resolve, that's the big thing. Over the years I have learned that ideally Spy-type attacks don't have +1 action, or don't involve a decision, or both. Rabble is exactly what I want. Spy has +1 action and involves a decision, so you potentially make tons of decisions per turn. I like decisions but man Spy is not where to get them. It initially got to interact with two attacks that trashed cards from the top of your deck, and that's cool, but now it only interacts with Thief (in the main set that is), and that combo just isn't worth the slot.

The way to think of these things is, imagine the replacement cards. Let's say I just take out Woodcutter and Feast and put in Wishing Well and Coppersmith. Those are not top-of-the-line adored-by-all go-in-every-deck cards. But they still give you more to do than Woodcutter and Feast do.

It would be nice if Thief were stronger, but it already scares new players, and once everyone was new. There are some wording tweaks; Throne Room and Moneylender should of course say "you may." I would try coloring the coins on the treasures. The Trash card should be a mat instead.

There are people who complain about various other cards, but I am happy with those, so there.

Intrigue:

Saboteur is the biggest mistake here. Some people hate it because it can trash Provinces, some because it's an attack that doesn't make resources (which was a surprise but there it is), some just don't like it because it's weak. Some people like it, but the kind of person who wants an attack like this deserves one that has fewer strikes against it - like, Swindler, there you go.

Moats have to be on the weak side, but I would probably still try to improve Secret Chamber. It also has the issue of making reactions confusing - the whole business of, reveal Secret Chamber, resolve it, reveal a Moat I drew off of it. It would be better to avoid that issue, even if it meant just not doing Secret Chamber's reaction.

I would look at ways to buff Scout. I would consider changing Mining Village to avoid invoking the enigmatic "lose track" rule. I would consider whether I like Bridge and Coppersmith as is, in their Throne-able glory, or if I would rather phrase them the way I think such stuff in general should be phrased, like Highway etc. Masquerade originally triggered gain/trash things; I would look at that again, but honestly I would be unlikely to just reword it to address the King's Court / Masquerade / Goons combo. Masquerade has a clear simple wording and I would rather kill the card than make the wording awful, an awful that you dear reader may be mystified as to the awfulness of, I have come to terms with that. But I'm not sure I need to kill the combo and Masquerade is a pretty cool card.

Seaside:

The biggest thing here is, the set has two cards that hand out junk that cost less than $5. Cards like that tend to dominate games, since people buy them turns 1-2 and start playing them fast, so it's bad to have two of them in one set, even though when they're in the same game the one defends against the other. I just don't want heavy-Seaside games to always have one of those cards. So either Ambassador or Sea Hag should be a more powerful card for $5. Ambassador looks more innocent so probably I would change Sea Hag.

Lookout is the dud of the set. The problem is, some people are terrified of trashing a good card with it. At the same time trashing bad cards looks less exciting to some players. And as a trasher it's not exceptional. So the overall package is a card that a lot of players don't want, but that some experienced players realize is okay but not special. I could instead have some other card more people liked.

Originally the set did not have tokens. Embargo put itself on a pile; Pirate Ship kept one treasure per attack and counted them; Pirate Ship and Native Village did have mats, but they were card-sized (when that changed I got to add Haven back in). If I had known the set would have counters, I would have tried to get more use out of them, just as I made two more VP token cards to go with Monument.

Outpost could be simpler. Ideally it would have you discard 2 at the start of your next turn, rather than having the wonky Clean-up-modifying effect it has. There was not enough time between when I realized that and when the card had to be finalized.

Again some people complain about various other cards but I am having none of it. Pirate Ship is weak but I don't think it should be stronger. I like Treasure Map as is. Fishing Village and Wharf are strong engine-enablers and well we are talking good times there. Pearl Diver and Navigator are not prized, but they look reasonable to me, and as I have said many times, if I made all cards better by making them maximally complex, the game would have no players. Explorer is fine, why do people even complain about Explorer. They can't all be the best $5 ever.

Alchemy:

The first big thing is that, I knew some people wouldn't appreciate the potion resource concept, so I put the expansion last. Then it was bumped up as the only thing I could get out quickly as a small set. I would put it last. This would simplify all of those threads where people ask what order to buy the expansions.

The next big thing is that, I knew some people wouldn't appreciate the potion concept, but did not realize that some people would find the set to be too slow. It has an action-chaining sub-theme, in order to make individual potion-costing cards good in games where there's only one card to buy with potions, and well this leads to longer games. I could potentially have put in two victory cards or treasures or both though, as those are cards you can buy multiples of (another solution to the problem that action-chaining was solving), and tweaked the card mix other ways to reduce either slowness or the perception of slowness.

Two things stand out here. First I could have swapped Philosopher's Stone with Bank. Bank was originally in this set, and the only reason I took it out was because Alchemy got pushed ahead of Prosperity, and Prosperity introduced treasures where the order of played treasures mattered. Philosopher's Stone did not quite require all of the rules that Bank did. But I could have sucked it up and had Bank anyway. It's a good fit for the set otherwise. And Philosopher's Stone, it is not such a slow card, but people sure think it is.

Second I could have dropped the attack from Scrying Pool. Scrying Pool did not originally have an attack. It got one because I felt the set should have two attacks, and the names were already in - it was a tight schedule and art was being made while I worked on the cards. "Scrying Pool" was the name that felt like it could attack, paired with a card that felt like it could attack (yes I could have replaced Golem with an attack, but that was not on the table, Golem was too awesome). Now did I really need two attacks? Not enough to muck up Scrying Pool. This change made the card slower, more wordy, and less special-seeming. Before it was this cool draw-lots-of-cards thing; now it's Spy, something something, some kind of Spy variant I think, I'll read the rest later. I would rather have the faster simpler cooler card. Again Spy itself is bad, it's too slow for what you get, and Scrying Pool's Spy is worse, because you've got card-drawing built-in to get you more of them.

Probably I would drop the potion clause from Apprentice. It got that because 1) it meant every card in the set interacted in some way with potions, and 2) it answers the question "what if I trash a card with potion in the cost" right on the card. But really, whatever, the simpler version is better.

Those are really the changes. Possession has way too long of a FAQ and would be better in a large expansion, which Alchemy originally was. It's a card some people adore though, and reasonable except for the FAQ issue. I don't know what can be done about the FAQ but I do not look at Possession and think, oh I shouldn't have made that one. Maybe Familiar should be cheaper, that's plausible.

Prosperity:

Prosperity got more testing than any other set, due to being pushed back for Alchemy. It did not need even more testing; whatever cards could be improved, it would not be worth spending time improving them. That's time that could be spent improving other expansions or working on other games. That's how I see it.

That said, Loan is easily the dud for me. I knew this during that extra testing period but decided to keep it. Looking at it in the set, it's okay. It has basically the same issues as Lookout, only not as bad; less experienced players are terrified of flipping over a Platinum that they now don't get to draw on this pass, while experienced players know that Loan is fine but not the best trasher ever; sometimes it's exciting because you are not buying any other treasures this game. I buy it more than Lookout, but whatever, in general this flipping over of cards thing has to come paired with something like "and get the good ones" in order to not bum people out too much. I don't think Venture makes people not buy it because maybe they'll flip over their good actions, although they will sometimes. But Loan, not a star. Anyway I kept it in knowing this.

Talisman would be a lot more exciting if it could get VP cards somehow, but some people do like it as is. There might have been a good tweak there, dunno. Counting House is narrow but a set can have a narrow card, some people love winning with narrow cards in the games where they are good enough. I just beat FTL's turn-two Mountebank with it so there you go.

Cornucopia:

Well I am pretty pleased with this one, but can probably still find something to poke at.

I guess my top thing is, it would be nice to have another card that really makes you want a variety of cards. Just to push the theme a little more. Probably Farming Village would go to have room for it. People like Farming Village but it's the off-theme card I need the least here.

Harvest does the flip over cards thing, and I would try to fix that up, see if I could make a version that did not make your good cards go by. I would like Bag of Gold to be better relative to the other prizes.

Sweet set, no lie.

Hinterlands:

Odds are I wasn't going to be so unhappy with this one either, given how recent it is. The one thing I can say is, I thought the set was simpler than people think it is, and I would be strongly tempted to simplify it a little given that I know people think it's complex. Basically make it a little more like the standalone it didn't end up being. To that end the obv. changes are to drop the reactions from Fool's Gold and Trader, to drop the above-line text on Duchess (just leave it +$2), and make a version of IGG that just has $1 or $2 on the top. Possibly either Inn or Mandarin could change, I like them both as-is but they would be some of the wordiest cards left at that point. Noble Brigand is wordy but it needs those words. Probably all of these changes sound awful to you, dear reader, but that's the way of the world. It's hard to see the value in the simplicity I'd gain, but there really is value there. Anyway I went with the more complex versions and it's not so bad that I did.

Promos:

Black Market could be a lot simpler. You make it gain cards directly, to get rid of the buying-during-action-phase thing, and then make a special dedicated deck for it, to simplify set-up. And hey I made that card, it's Tournament. Envoy and Walled Village are too lackluster to be promos. I am pleased with Governor and Stash. Stash is the perfect promo: it's wacky in a way that isn't actually tricky, it has a little subtlety to it, and yet it really isn't depriving some expansion of a cool card. Promos are bad; you either depvire the game of something in order to have it as a promo, or you do something wacky in the situation where people have the least access to the rules for it, or you do something not worth doing in the game and then why is it worth doing as a promo? But people love promos so what can you do.
Logged

Robz888

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2624
  • Shuffle iT Username: Robz888
  • Respect: +3322
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2012, 02:30:13 am »
+9

Awesome thoughts, Donald! Thanks.

I must say that I am very, very, very, very glad Hinterlands has all these cards the way they are. I adore Hinterlands and its complexity!
Logged
I have been forced to accept that lackluster play is a town tell for you.

Morgrim7

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1701
  • Torturer chains? How primitive.
  • Respect: +746
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2012, 02:32:27 am »
+1

Honestly, I'd rather Possesion not be a card, but if it must stay in the set it should work more than once per turn. It's too deliciously evil! You can't get rid of something that mean, it makes people like Morgrim7 sad :(
Bwahahaha!!! ... How did you know I liked Possession?
Logged
"Oh sweet merciful heavens.

I sit here, lost amongst the cloud, that which is the brain of the Morgrim Mod. Perhaps I will learn the inner workings of that storied mind. Perhaps I will simply go mad.

Mad, I tell you.

Maaaaaaaaaaaaad." -Voltgloss
Dominion Notation: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7265.msg206246#msg206246

Robz888

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2624
  • Shuffle iT Username: Robz888
  • Respect: +3322
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #21 on: June 28, 2012, 02:35:02 am »
+7

This was my favorite line from Donald's explanation:

Explorer is fine, why do people even complain about Explorer. They can't all be the best $5 ever.
Logged
I have been forced to accept that lackluster play is a town tell for you.

O

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 836
  • Respect: +602
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2012, 02:45:14 am »
0

The way to think of these things is, imagine the replacement cards. Let's say I just take out Woodcutter and Feast and put in Wishing Well and Coppersmith. Those are not top-of-the-line adored-by-all go-in-every-deck cards. But they still give you more to do than Woodcutter and Feast do.


Would you really want to introduce the meticulous deck-counting that Wishing Well encourages in the base set? It's one of my favorite cards but I could have seen this turning away some.
Logged

timchen

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 704
  • Shuffle iT Username: allfail
  • Respect: +233
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2012, 02:47:54 am »
+2

Interesting thoughts Donald!

One thing I was thinking about Adventurer when reading through your description of Lookout though: is it like,  a reverse situation? I have just seen so many new players buy adventurer because either it costs 6 or it sounds cool. And sure experienced players will find it a fine card, occasionally useful but not always. But do we really have to have a card in the base set that the new players have to learn not to buy. especially since there are no other kingdom cards to compete with it at the same cost?

On the other hand, I cannot really recall if it has been answered somewhere, has it been tested how adventurer fare as a $5, or even a $4? (I would guess at $4 adventurer+BM is probably too strong, but hey, courtyard+BM is pretty strong too.) Well, I guess the base set does need some action that costs $6, but that is another problem...
Logged

Dsell

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1289
  • He/Him
  • Respect: +920
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2012, 02:53:28 am »
+3

Giving Adventurer a +buy and replacing woodcutter could have been interesting. The problem with Adventurer is that when it's good, it's usually overkill.
Logged
"Quiet you, you'll lynch Dsell when I'm good and ready" - Insomniac


Winner of Forum Survivor Season 2!

chwhite

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1065
  • Respect: +437
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #25 on: June 28, 2012, 03:35:51 am »
0

Cornucopia:

Sweet set, no lie.

That's for sure!

I will say that I'm very glad Woodcutter is in the base set: having no sources of +Buy under $5 would be pretty bad IMO. I could see swapping out Spy: I like the card just fine, but it feels like it belongs in Intrigue instead, where it can combo with Swindler/Saboteur, help set off Conspirators, that sort of thing.

I'm fine with Saboteur: it's good to have a couple of those sorts of cards, and I like that it looks scary but isn't very good (except when it is!).  I'm also very happy with Bridge and Coppersmith being Throne/Kingable, and I'd say Coppersmith in particular needs that to be good enough often enough.

Yeah, I wouldn't mind an IGG that just had $1 on top.  But that's because IGG is my least favorite card in the Dominion universe by a long shot.  So anything to knock it down a peg. :P  In general I'm fine with Hinterlands' complexity, though.
Logged
To discard or not to discard?  That is the question.

pst

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 560
  • Respect: +858
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #26 on: June 28, 2012, 03:53:58 am »
0

Change Masquerade so that the passing only happens if every player has at least one card in hand

I would just add "Any player with no cards in their hand gain a Copper to their hand" before the passing. If the Coppers run out, so be it, but it would fix most pins, and also the "unfairness" of one player not getting a card sometimes in a multiplayer game.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2012, 04:48:35 am by pst »
Logged

Davio

  • 2012 Dutch Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4733
  • Respect: +3327
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #27 on: June 28, 2012, 04:24:38 am »
+9

I would go back in time to say to Donald: Don't worry, we like the game anyway.
Logged

BSG: Cagprezimal Adama
Mage Knight: Arythea

HiveMindEmulator

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2222
  • Respect: +2096
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #28 on: June 28, 2012, 05:15:21 am »
+31

changes are to drop the reactions from Fool's Gold and Trader...
Logged

Davio

  • 2012 Dutch Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4733
  • Respect: +3327
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #29 on: June 28, 2012, 05:28:54 am »
0

Hehe, nice XKCD edit!  :D
Logged

BSG: Cagprezimal Adama
Mage Knight: Arythea

Grujah

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2237
  • Respect: +1169
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #30 on: June 28, 2012, 06:14:42 am »
+1

Someone care to explain Blue Dog joke? I came across it too many times to ignore now, and have no idea what it is about.
Logged

Morgrim7

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1701
  • Torturer chains? How primitive.
  • Respect: +746
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #31 on: June 28, 2012, 06:15:28 am »
0

Someone care to explain Blue Dog joke? I came across it too many times to ignore now, and have no idea what it is about.
I don't understand it either...
Logged
"Oh sweet merciful heavens.

I sit here, lost amongst the cloud, that which is the brain of the Morgrim Mod. Perhaps I will learn the inner workings of that storied mind. Perhaps I will simply go mad.

Mad, I tell you.

Maaaaaaaaaaaaad." -Voltgloss
Dominion Notation: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7265.msg206246#msg206246

Qvist

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2400
  • Shuffle iT Username: Qvist
  • Respect: +4072
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #32 on: June 28, 2012, 06:23:02 am »
+3

Donald X. tried to explain the interaction between Ironworks and Trader with a blue dog.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=880.msg13340#msg13340
or more specifically:
http://boardgamegeek.com/article/7743728#7743728

Davio

  • 2012 Dutch Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4733
  • Respect: +3327
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #33 on: June 28, 2012, 06:30:11 am »
0

He just loves walking blue dogs, but he doesn't know whether he is actually walking the blue dog.
Logged

BSG: Cagprezimal Adama
Mage Knight: Arythea

sitnaltax

  • Apprentice
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 279
  • Respect: +479
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #34 on: June 28, 2012, 08:49:37 am »
0

I would go back in time to say to Donald: Don't worry, we like the game anyway.

Truth. Lesson learned: Do some serious research with the person who knows best before messing with the space-time-game continuum.
Logged

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4368
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #35 on: June 28, 2012, 09:27:37 am »
+8

That post should go in the Bible of Donald X. section.

Death to Sea Hags

  • Thief
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 90
  • Respect: +20
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #36 on: June 28, 2012, 09:57:14 am »
0

Donald X. tried to explain the interaction between Ironworks and Trader with a blue dog.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=880.msg13340#msg13340
or more specifically:
http://boardgamegeek.com/article/7743728#7743728

Shorter ruling: Ironworks is not a whore.

It only gives a bonus to "a" card "it" chooses.  Yes there's a better dog joke, but its definitely "bluer".  :)
« Last Edit: June 28, 2012, 10:14:36 am by Death to Sea Hags »
Logged

angrybirds

  • Ambassador
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 32
  • Respect: +14
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #37 on: June 28, 2012, 10:29:37 am »
+3

changes are to drop the reactions from Fool's Gold and Trader...


Where is the scroll over? That is always the best part!
Logged

Donald X.

  • Dominion Designer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5493
  • Respect: +22133
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #38 on: June 28, 2012, 03:50:55 pm »
+1

One thing I was thinking about Adventurer when reading through your description of Lookout though: is it like,  a reverse situation? I have just seen so many new players buy adventurer because either it costs 6 or it sounds cool. And sure experienced players will find it a fine card, occasionally useful but not always. But do we really have to have a card in the base set that the new players have to learn not to buy. especially since there are no other kingdom cards to compete with it at the same cost?
I think in fact it is great to have cards in the base set that your evaluation of changes over time.

@O: I don't think Wishing Well would be a problem in the base set, because the worst case is you don't buy it because you don't like it, but it was an example of how easy it is to do better than Woodcutter and Feast.
Logged

Jedit

  • Scout
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 43
  • Respect: +20
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #39 on: June 28, 2012, 06:02:13 pm »
0

Familiar is "obviously" too strong at $2P, just as Chapel is too strong at $2. Like Chapel's low cost, this makes broadens the availability of the power card; the change would make it much less likely that you can't buy one on T3/4.

Chapel being too cheap is no reason to make Familiar too cheap.  When you want Familiars most, between the first and second reshuffles, their opportunity cost is only $4.  Dropping that to $3 would be obscenely overpowered for a cantrip curser, which as a card is at least as strong as Sea Hag - perhaps stronger, as it cycles when the Curses are gone while Sea Hag is effectively dead - and not all that far off the power level of Witch.

If I had a time machine and could only change things about Dominion, I'd raise the cost of Chapel to $3, and add a $5 cost $3 Treasure Duration that made you discard a card at random the next time you drew your hand.
Logged

HiveMindEmulator

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2222
  • Respect: +2096
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #40 on: June 28, 2012, 08:26:33 pm »
+1

Familiar is "obviously" too strong at $2P, just as Chapel is too strong at $2. Like Chapel's low cost, this makes broadens the availability of the power card; the change would make it much less likely that you can't buy one on T3/4.

Chapel being too cheap is no reason to make Familiar too cheap.  When you want Familiars most, between the first and second reshuffles, their opportunity cost is only $4.  Dropping that to $3 would be obscenely overpowered for a cantrip curser, which as a card is at least as strong as Sea Hag - perhaps stronger, as it cycles when the Curses are gone while Sea Hag is effectively dead - and not all that far off the power level of Witch.
Can you explain what you mean when you say the "opportunity cost is only $4"? This doesn't really make much sense to me. The opportunity cost is pretty high -- you have to buy an otherwise useless Potion at the opening, then buy the Familiar -- and it's hard to quantify that in $.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2012, 08:28:49 pm by HiveMindEmulator »
Logged

Davio

  • 2012 Dutch Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4733
  • Respect: +3327
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #41 on: June 29, 2012, 07:46:24 am »
+1

I like Chapel for $3, because this causes 5/2 openers to either spend 5 on Chapel or take the good 5 first (Witch, Mountebank) and get the Chapel later (or not at all). I think this is more fair for the unlucky 4/3 opener who stands more of a chance against the 5/2s this way.
Logged

BSG: Cagprezimal Adama
Mage Knight: Arythea

cherdano

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 166
  • Respect: +54
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #42 on: June 29, 2012, 09:17:45 am »
0

I like Chapel for $3, because this causes 5/2 openers to either spend 5 on Chapel or take the good 5 first (Witch, Mountebank) and get the Chapel later (or not at all). I think this is more fair for the unlucky 4/3 opener who stands more of a chance against the 5/2s this way.
This would make it more fair when there is a superduper $5 card, but I think on all other kingdom's it would just add chapel to 5/2-opening's nightmares, and make it too unfair in the other direction. The silver in a tyipcal silver/chapel opening is quite important (especially since you may spend two of the next four turns not buying anything.
Logged

theory

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3594
  • Respect: +6035
    • View Profile
    • Dominion Strategy
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #43 on: June 29, 2012, 09:44:35 am »
+3

Quote from: Donald X.
People often talk about changing the cost and I don't think that gets you anywhere. At $4 you get less interesting games, not more interesting ones, and exchanging the 2/5 opening being especially good for the 2/5 opening being especially weak is a wash for me. If I had thought it was a mistake to print it at $2, I would have replaced it, not charged more for it.
Logged

tlloyd

  • Tactician
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 404
  • Respect: +82
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #44 on: June 29, 2012, 11:47:18 am »
+1

Masquerade originally triggered gain/trash things; I would look at that again, but honestly I would be unlikely to just reword it to address the King's Court / Masquerade / Goons combo. Masquerade has a clear simple wording and I would rather kill the card than make the wording awful, an awful that you dear reader may be mystified as to the awfulness of, I have come to terms with that. But I'm not sure I need to kill the combo and Masquerade is a pretty cool card.

I think I mentioned this in an earlier discussion, but the fix for Masquerade is actually pretty simple:

"Each player passes a card from his hand to the left at once. Then, If you passed a card, you may trash a card from your hand."

This still allows you to trade something for nothing, it just prevents you from doing it more than once. And while new players might be confused by the mandatory "pass a card" and the seemingly optional "If you did" language, that is easily dealt with in the FAQ. Besides, there are plenty of cards that are somewhat confusing to new players. I doubt this wording would puzzle anyone for long.
Logged

AJD

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2976
  • Shuffle iT Username: AJD
  • Respect: +3808
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #45 on: June 29, 2012, 02:05:15 pm »
0

I think I mentioned this in an earlier discussion, but the fix for Masquerade is actually pretty simple:

"Each player passes a card from his hand to the left at once. Then, If you passed a card, you may trash a card from your hand."

This still allows you to trade something for nothing, it just prevents you from doing it more than once. And while new players might be confused by the mandatory "pass a card" and the seemingly optional "If you did" language, that is easily dealt with in the FAQ. Besides, there are plenty of cards that are somewhat confusing to new players. I doubt this wording would puzzle anyone for long.

I wonder if that's too easy to misunderstand as meaning anyone may trash. Dominion cards don't use "you" generically, but casual players might not notice that rule, and misinterpret "If you passed a card, you may trash one" as meaning 'anyone who passed a card may trash one'.
Logged

qmech

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1918
  • Shuffle iT Username: qmech
  • What year is it?
  • Respect: +2315
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #46 on: June 29, 2012, 03:16:19 pm »
0

but casual players might not notice that rule, and misinterpret
There's also "What do you mean, if I passed a card?  You just told me to.  Why would I ever not?" which takes new players quite a long way off course.
Logged

toaster

  • Young Witch
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 133
  • Respect: +46
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #47 on: June 29, 2012, 03:28:06 pm »
+1

There's also "What do you mean, if I passed a card?  You just told me to.  Why would I ever not?" which takes new players quite a long way off course.

That's a wording that already appears on a number of other cards though.
Logged

qmech

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1918
  • Shuffle iT Username: qmech
  • What year is it?
  • Respect: +2315
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #48 on: June 29, 2012, 03:46:52 pm »
0

There's also "What do you mean, if I passed a card?  You just told me to.  Why would I ever not?" which takes new players quite a long way off course.

That's a wording that already appears on a number of other cards though.

It is, but the edge case is more removed from normal experience than it is with some other cards.  With Mining Village you only have to mention Throne Room; with Moneylender you hardly have to explain anything.  With Masquerade you'd be getting into things which have never come up in any of the games I've played.
Logged

tlloyd

  • Tactician
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 404
  • Respect: +82
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #49 on: June 29, 2012, 05:19:39 pm »
+2

but casual players might not notice that rule, and misinterpret
There's also "What do you mean, if I passed a card?  You just told me to.  Why would I ever not?" which takes new players quite a long way off course.

I directly addressed this in my post.
Logged

Jedit

  • Scout
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 43
  • Respect: +20
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #50 on: June 29, 2012, 05:23:34 pm »
0

Chapel being too cheap is no reason to make Familiar too cheap.  When you want Familiars most, between the first and second reshuffles, their opportunity cost is only $4.  Dropping that to $3 would be obscenely overpowered for a cantrip curser, which as a card is at least as strong as Sea Hag - perhaps stronger, as it cycles when the Curses are gone while Sea Hag is effectively dead - and not all that far off the power level of Witch.
Can you explain what you mean when you say the "opportunity cost is only $4"? This doesn't really make much sense to me. The opportunity cost is pretty high -- you have to buy an otherwise useless Potion at the opening, then buy the Familiar -- and it's hard to quantify that in $.

After the first reshuffle you will probably have 12 cards and the maximum value of those cards is $12, more probably $9-10.  So on the second run through your deck every card has a rounded average value of $1, and over the extended series the equivalent of a $3p hand on turn 3 is a $4 hand.
Logged

tlloyd

  • Tactician
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 404
  • Respect: +82
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #51 on: June 29, 2012, 05:31:51 pm »
0

I think I mentioned this in an earlier discussion, but the fix for Masquerade is actually pretty simple:

"Each player passes a card from his hand to the left at once. Then, If you passed a card, you may trash a card from your hand."

This still allows you to trade something for nothing, it just prevents you from doing it more than once. And while new players might be confused by the mandatory "pass a card" and the seemingly optional "If you did" language, that is easily dealt with in the FAQ. Besides, there are plenty of cards that are somewhat confusing to new players. I doubt this wording would puzzle anyone for long.

I wonder if that's too easy to misunderstand as meaning anyone may trash. Dominion cards don't use "you" generically, but casual players might not notice that rule, and misinterpret "If you passed a card, you may trash one" as meaning 'anyone who passed a card may trash one'.

That's a fair point, but as you say the erroneous interpretation goes against standard Dominion usage. The way I see it, if putting a "$0" on the curses led some people to believe you could dish out a targeted curse with an extra buy, then no wording is completely idiot-proof.
Logged

ftl

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2028
  • Respect: +1295
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #52 on: June 29, 2012, 05:34:22 pm »
0

No wording is idiot-proof, but the point is to steer people towards the right way...

If I had read the "if you passed a card" wording, I would have read that to mean "anyone who passed a card", and would have probably played that way until I read the faq or online guide or something.
Logged

chester

  • Ambassador
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 31
  • Respect: +21
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #53 on: June 29, 2012, 06:01:35 pm »
0

"pass"ing a card is defined in the rulebook, just like "gain" and "trash".  A simple note in the rules here would take care of the corner cases, and not confuse anyone with strange wording on the card.

Back to the original question, I've always been a little unnerved by Kings Court/Scheme.  I know it works as designed, and nobody else seems to have a problem with it, but to me it seems to be on a completely different level than any other 2-card combo.
Logged

HiveMindEmulator

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2222
  • Respect: +2096
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #54 on: June 29, 2012, 06:08:15 pm »
+2

Chapel being too cheap is no reason to make Familiar too cheap.  When you want Familiars most, between the first and second reshuffles, their opportunity cost is only $4.  Dropping that to $3 would be obscenely overpowered for a cantrip curser, which as a card is at least as strong as Sea Hag - perhaps stronger, as it cycles when the Curses are gone while Sea Hag is effectively dead - and not all that far off the power level of Witch.
Can you explain what you mean when you say the "opportunity cost is only $4"? This doesn't really make much sense to me. The opportunity cost is pretty high -- you have to buy an otherwise useless Potion at the opening, then buy the Familiar -- and it's hard to quantify that in $.

After the first reshuffle you will probably have 12 cards and the maximum value of those cards is $12, more probably $9-10.  So on the second run through your deck every card has a rounded average value of $1, and over the extended series the equivalent of a $3p hand on turn 3 is a $4 hand.

I don't really think this is an appropriate interpretation of "opportunity cost". Opportunity cost is what you could have had instead had you chosen not to pursue a particular endeavor. If you opt to not go for Familiar, you could have for example bought Silver instead of Potion, and then a $5 card instead of Familiar (since the $3+Potion => $3+Silver=$5). So your opportunity cost is at least a Silver + a $5 card to get the first Familiar.
Logged

rinkworks

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1316
  • Respect: +918
    • View Profile
    • RinkWorks
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #55 on: June 29, 2012, 07:47:10 pm »
0

After the first reshuffle you will probably have 12 cards and the maximum value of those cards is $12, more probably $9-10.  So on the second run through your deck every card has a rounded average value of $1, and over the extended series the equivalent of a $3p hand on turn 3 is a $4 hand.

The problem with that is that averages go out the window when you draw an actual hand.  Because, let's say you open Silver/Silver, and you get them both, plus three Coppers, on Turn 3.  You can't say that that's a $5 hand, because that's roughly your average card value at that point.  It's a $7 hand, and the reason you have to look at it that way is because it means Turn 4 is really going to suck, average card value notwithstanding.

For any hand with a Potion card in it, you have to consider that that Potion could have been a Silver.  Not $1, because you wouldn't have bought a Copper with that money but Silver.  Whenever you've got a $3P hand, you could have had $5 instead.  If you can buy a Golem, you could have bought a Gold.  Etc.  Thinking about it that way really helps in weighing whether or not the Potion-cost cards are worth shooting for.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2012, 07:49:48 pm by rinkworks »
Logged

rspeer

  • Witch
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 469
  • Respect: +875
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #56 on: June 29, 2012, 08:10:45 pm »
+6

This was my favorite line from Donald's explanation:

Explorer is fine, why do people even complain about Explorer. They can't all be the best $5 ever.

The particularly great part is "Explorer is fine" makes me think of this classic.

WHY YOU WANT PLUS ACTION FOR EXPLORER? IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH AS PROCURED FROM RIO GRANDE GAMES? YOU THINK NEEDS IMPROVEMENT? THEN MAYBE YOU FIND JOB AS GAME DESIGNER! YOU HAVE DRINKS WITH DONALD X VACCARINO, TRADE STORY OF MANY CARDS DESIGNED!

EXPLORER IS FINE. YOU FUCK IT, IT ONLY GET WORDY AND YOU STILL NO BUY PROVINCE. GO TO ISOTROPIC, PRACTICE WITH MANY KINGDOM OF EXPLORER. THEN YOU NOT NEED DUMB SHIT PUT ON CARD.

(check the link if you don't get the reference, I'm not actually an angry Russian)
Logged

Dave970

  • Ambassador
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 30
  • Respect: +2
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #57 on: July 02, 2012, 02:10:10 pm »
0

This was my favorite line from Donald's explanation:

Explorer is fine, why do people even complain about Explorer. They can't all be the best $5 ever.

The particularly great part is "Explorer is fine" makes me think of this classic.


Epic.
Logged

werothegreat

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8165
  • Shuffle iT Username: werothegreat
  • Let me tell you a secret...
  • Respect: +9544
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #58 on: November 17, 2014, 09:31:35 am »
+1

I'd be interested to hear if Donald X would time machine anything in Dark Ages or Guilds aside from Rebuild.
Logged
Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.  There are plenty of other people who are actively editing.  Go bother them!

Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

Asper

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4995
  • Respect: +5268
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #59 on: November 17, 2014, 11:32:12 am »
+1

Played a ripoff of Dominion recently (i know, bad Asper) and it had a card that was exactly Adventurer, just that it costed 5 and was nonterminal (the game had no +action or +buy concept). It was fine. It also had something like Warehouse, which costed 3$ but only drew and discarded two cards. Seemed still okay.

Anyhow, i would reduce Adventurer's cost to 5 and add a buy (rather than an action). I would remove Woodcutter and give the buy to Chancellor. I would kill Rebuild. I would have Thief give two and Scout give one coin on play. I would remove Spy and let Feast top-deck the new card. I would add a "you may" to Moneylender and Throne Room. Going with how the new cards are, i would make all trash-for-benefits non-mandatory. I would make Pirate Ship's wording refer to the Pirate Ship Mat. I would have Masquerade pass cards only between players who have cards ("Each player sets aside a card. All players who did pass it to the next player to their left who did."). That's it.

LastFootnote

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7084
  • Shuffle iT Username: LastFootnote
  • Respect: +9835
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #60 on: November 17, 2014, 11:45:40 am »
+1

Going with how the new cards are, i would make all trash-for-benefits non-mandatory.

Actually, apart from Butcher, this is just an accountability thing. Taxman's trashing is optional because it only trashes Treasure cards and the alternative would have been "(or reveal a hand with no Treasures)", which is way wordier. Notice that Stonemason's trashing is mandatory.

EDIT: Presumably Butcher's trashing is optional as an intentional buff to the card. Unlike Remodel, you might want to play Butcher from your hand just for the other benefits (two Coin tokens).
« Last Edit: November 17, 2014, 11:48:16 am by LastFootnote »
Logged

Voltaire

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 957
  • flavor text
  • Respect: +1096
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #61 on: November 17, 2014, 11:57:04 am »
+3

I would make Pirate Ship's wording refer to the Pirate Ship Mat.

This is the lone errata of Dominion I can 100% support.
Logged

silverspawn

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4206
  • Shuffle iT Username: sty.silver
  • Respect: +1848
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #62 on: November 17, 2014, 12:31:47 pm »
0

Played a ripoff of Dominion recently (i know, bad Asper) and it had a card that was exactly Adventurer, just that it costed 5 and was nonterminal (the game had no +action or +buy concept). It was fine. It also had something like Warehouse, which costed 3$ but only drew and discarded two cards. Seemed still okay.

Anyhow, i would reduce Adventurer's cost to 5 and add a buy (rather than an action). I would remove Woodcutter and give the buy to Chancellor. I would kill Rebuild. I would have Thief give two and Scout give one coin on play. I would remove Spy and let Feast top-deck the new card. I would add a "you may" to Moneylender and Throne Room. Going with how the new cards are, i would make all trash-for-benefits non-mandatory. I would make Pirate Ship's wording refer to the Pirate Ship Mat. I would have Masquerade pass cards only between players who have cards ("Each player sets aside a card. All players who did pass it to the next player to their left who did."). That's it.

good opinion. 10/10
Logged

Rubby

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 170
  • Respect: +321
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #63 on: November 17, 2014, 12:54:59 pm »
+1

I would have Masquerade pass cards only between players who have cards ("Each player sets aside a card. All players who did pass it to the next player to their left who did.").

The thing about that is that it's probably not worth mucking with the wording to where it's awkward and annoyingly opaque to anyone who's not an experienced/knowledgeable player, just to account for a rare edge case.

That being said, if we are determined to eliminate the pin, why not just add "If you have at least 1 card in hand" to the very beginning of the text? (edit: the non-bold text, that is, after the +2 Cards)
« Last Edit: November 17, 2014, 01:06:47 pm by Rubby »
Logged

A Drowned Kernel

  • 2015 World Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1067
  • They/Them
  • Respect: +1976
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #64 on: November 17, 2014, 04:24:31 pm »
0

I would make Pirate Ship's wording refer to the Pirate Ship Mat.

This is the lone errata of Dominion I can 100% support.

Really? Not "you may" on throne room or "while this is in play" on bridge?
Logged
The perfect engine
But it will never go off
Three piles are empty

Polk5440

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1708
  • Respect: +1786
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #65 on: November 17, 2014, 04:25:31 pm »
0

Played a ripoff of Dominion recently (i know, bad Asper) and it had a card that was exactly Adventurer, just that it costed 5 and was nonterminal (the game had no +action or +buy concept). It was fine. It also had something like Warehouse, which costed 3$ but only drew and discarded two cards. Seemed still okay.

Anyhow, i would reduce Adventurer's cost to 5 and add a buy (rather than an action). I would remove Woodcutter and give the buy to Chancellor. I would kill Rebuild. I would have Thief give two and Scout give one coin on play. I would remove Spy and let Feast top-deck the new card. I would add a "you may" to Moneylender and Throne Room. Going with how the new cards are, i would make all trash-for-benefits non-mandatory. I would make Pirate Ship's wording refer to the Pirate Ship Mat. I would have Masquerade pass cards only between players who have cards ("Each player sets aside a card. All players who did pass it to the next player to their left who did."). That's it.

good opinion. 10/10

More and more I am coming around to silverspawn's opinion that Masquerade should not pass cards at all. +2 Cards, may trash one card would be just fine with me. Is it better than the current card? Eh... I can be persuaded, where maybe I couldn't have been persuaded a year ago.

Passing cards is a fun novelty in person, but it does create issues and scenarios that are not so fun.
Logged

Donald X.

  • Dominion Designer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5493
  • Respect: +22133
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #66 on: November 17, 2014, 05:05:38 pm »
+10

I'd be interested to hear if Donald X would time machine anything in Dark Ages or Guilds aside from Rebuild.
There's an obvious one for Guilds - I'd drop the "who did" on Soothsayer. "Gain a Gold. Each other player gains a Curse and draws a card." The "who did" is there because there were complaints about the card going dead eventually. The apparently tiny amount of simplicity to be gained is worth way more to me than getting rid of the feeling that eventually you will want to stop playing Soothsayer.

I am pretty happy with Guilds apart from that, and with Dark Ages apart from Rebuild. There are cards you guys sometimes complain about, and well it's not great for me to get into strategy discussions.
Logged

Donald X.

  • Dominion Designer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5493
  • Respect: +22133
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #67 on: November 17, 2014, 05:11:02 pm »
+11

I would have Masquerade pass cards only between players who have cards ("Each player sets aside a card. All players who did pass it to the next player to their left who did.").

The thing about that is that it's probably not worth mucking with the wording to where it's awkward and annoyingly opaque to anyone who's not an experienced/knowledgeable player, just to account for a rare edge case.

That being said, if we are determined to eliminate the pin, why not just add "If you have at least 1 card in hand" to the very beginning of the text? (edit: the non-bold text, that is, after the +2 Cards)
I have a card-passing thing in Temporum (where it frequently will be the case that someone has no cards); it says "Each player with any cards in hand passes one left to the next such player, at once."

For me the entire point of Masquerade is the card-passing. The rest of the card makes that part work. If I didn't like the card-passing, the whole card would die. Any combination of card-drawing and trashing that I did would not be trying to look like Masquerade without the passing.
Logged

Titandrake

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2140
  • Respect: +2697
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #68 on: November 17, 2014, 05:16:32 pm »
+3

I think Masq without passing is a kind of boring card like Junk Dealer. I mean, with the current version you get weird scenarios, but you also get to pretend you're Oprah when your deck is awful. You get a Curse! And you get a Curse! Curses for everybody! It's unique and cute.
Logged
I have a blog! It's called Sorta Insightful. Check it out?

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11218
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (´。• ω •。`)
  • Respect: +11893
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #69 on: November 17, 2014, 05:19:06 pm »
+3

I think Masq without passing is a kind of boring card like Junk Dealer.

Junk Dealer is one of the most fun cards in the game.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's albums for free

werothegreat

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8165
  • Shuffle iT Username: werothegreat
  • Let me tell you a secret...
  • Respect: +9544
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #70 on: November 17, 2014, 05:20:08 pm »
+1

I'd be interested to hear if Donald X would time machine anything in Dark Ages or Guilds aside from Rebuild.
There's an obvious one for Guilds - I'd drop the "who did" on Soothsayer. "Gain a Gold. Each other player gains a Curse and draws a card." The "who did" is there because there were complaints about the card going dead eventually. The apparently tiny amount of simplicity to be gained is worth way more to me than getting rid of the feeling that eventually you will want to stop playing Soothsayer.

I am pretty happy with Guilds apart from that, and with Dark Ages apart from Rebuild. There are cards you guys sometimes complain about, and well it's not great for me to get into strategy discussions.

Thanks!  *updates wiki*
Logged
Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.  There are plenty of other people who are actively editing.  Go bother them!

Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

Rubby

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 170
  • Respect: +321
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #71 on: November 17, 2014, 05:23:17 pm »
+9

I think Masq without passing is a kind of boring card like Junk Dealer. I mean, with the current version you get weird scenarios, but you also get to pretend you're Oprah when your deck is awful. You get a Curse! And you get a Curse! Curses for everybody! It's unique and cute.

And without it there would be no way for anyone ever to experience the almost indescribable thrill of: Buy a Province, trash 2 Hovels.
Logged

Tombolo

  • Tactician
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 439
  • Respect: +446
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #72 on: November 17, 2014, 05:24:24 pm »
+1

If I had a dominion time machine, I'd go FORWARD in time and play Dark Ages and Guilds.

This is a really confusing post if you're not looking at dates when you open this thread!
Logged
We’ve had a hard day at work, we’ve been looking forward to our Dominion, how can you expect us to play anything else, you ogre.

Asper

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4995
  • Respect: +5268
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #73 on: November 17, 2014, 05:25:12 pm »
0

I wonder when people will start saying Prince should not force you to play his action so Possession/Ambassador cannot be used to destroy people's deck (by Ambassadoring a mandatory trasher, possessing your opponent and then Princing it). I can imagine Possessed Prince of Rats becoming a thing.

werothegreat

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8165
  • Shuffle iT Username: werothegreat
  • Let me tell you a secret...
  • Respect: +9544
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #74 on: November 17, 2014, 05:30:46 pm »
+11

I wonder when people will start saying Prince should not force you to play his action so Possession/Ambassador cannot be used to destroy people's deck (by Ambassadoring a mandatory trasher, possessing your opponent and then Princing it). I can imagine Possessed Prince of Rats becoming a thing.

That is such an unlikely scenario, and far too fun to pull off just one time.  If someone manages to Possess you and Prince your Rats, they deserve a round of applause and an internet.
Logged
Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.  There are plenty of other people who are actively editing.  Go bother them!

Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

Asper

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4995
  • Respect: +5268
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #75 on: November 17, 2014, 05:41:11 pm »
0

I wonder when people will start saying Prince should not force you to play his action so Possession/Ambassador cannot be used to destroy people's deck (by Ambassadoring a mandatory trasher, possessing your opponent and then Princing it). I can imagine Possessed Prince of Rats becoming a thing.

That is such an unlikely scenario, and far too fun to pull off just one time.  If someone manages to Possess you and Prince your Rats, they deserve a round of applause and an internet.

Challenge accepted.

liopoil

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2587
  • Respect: +2476
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #76 on: November 17, 2014, 06:17:03 pm »
+2

Wait, why wouldn't you want your opponent to prince your rats? Then I get more rats! Remake I can understand...
Logged

werothegreat

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8165
  • Shuffle iT Username: werothegreat
  • Let me tell you a secret...
  • Respect: +9544
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #77 on: November 17, 2014, 06:22:47 pm »
+5

Logged
Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.  There are plenty of other people who are actively editing.  Go bother them!

Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

Voltaire

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 957
  • flavor text
  • Respect: +1096
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #78 on: November 17, 2014, 06:22:59 pm »
0

I would make Pirate Ship's wording refer to the Pirate Ship Mat.

This is the lone errata of Dominion I can 100% support.

Really? Not "you may" on throne room or "while this is in play" on bridge?

Pirate Ship I support because it's straight-up broken (from a rules POV) when combined with a future expansion (or the future expansion breaks it, take your pick). In other words, it seems like a typo more than a rules goof. Hence, support for errata/reprinting here.

Throne Room I would support except for the fact that changing it establishes the principle of doing errata in the first place. I think Pirate Ship is worth the exception (it's also not a big deal, I imagine anyone who owns Seaside + Guilds and even gets confused is the kind of person who will be able to figure out what happened on their own).

Bridge on the other hand, I see no reason to "while this is in play" Bridge, that's a design change! And it's huge! This third thing is not like the first two things.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2014, 06:28:00 pm by Voltaire »
Logged

werothegreat

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8165
  • Shuffle iT Username: werothegreat
  • Let me tell you a secret...
  • Respect: +9544
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #79 on: November 17, 2014, 06:24:01 pm »
+1

Aaaaaand I forgot this wasn't the meme thread.
Logged
Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.  There are plenty of other people who are actively editing.  Go bother them!

Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

Jimmmmm

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1734
  • Shuffle iT Username: Jimmmmm
  • Respect: +1944
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #80 on: November 17, 2014, 06:28:07 pm »
0

I would make Pirate Ship's wording refer to the Pirate Ship Mat.

This is the lone errata of Dominion I can 100% support.

Really? Not "you may" on throne room or "while this is in play" on bridge?

Pirate Ship I support because it's straight-up broken (from a rules POV) when combined with a future expansion (or the future expansion breaks it, take your pick). In other words, it seems like a typo more than a rules goof. Hence, support for errata/reprinting here.

Throne Room is 99% support, for consistency's sake.

Bridge on the other hand, I see no reason to "while this is in play" Bridge, that's a design change! And it's huge! This third thing is not like the first two things.

The Throne Room change is a design change as well. As is, if you are building a TR/draw engine, you have to think about how that works with (eg) mandatory trashing cards. I like Throne Room as it is, and I like that it's different to King's Court.

Obviously if you're playing with people who are likely to cheat it's an issue. A better solution is to not play with them, or house-rule a "or reveal a hand with no action cards" clause.
Logged

Voltaire

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 957
  • flavor text
  • Respect: +1096
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #81 on: November 17, 2014, 06:29:04 pm »
+1

The Throne Room change is a design change as well. As is, if you are building a TR/draw engine, you have to think about how that works with (eg) mandatory trashing cards. I like Throne Room as it is, and I like that it's different to King's Court.

Yes, and you caught me before my edit. Bah!
Logged

A Drowned Kernel

  • 2015 World Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1067
  • They/Them
  • Respect: +1976
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #82 on: November 17, 2014, 07:51:05 pm »
0

The Soothsayer thing I don't really get, Soothsayer's one of the weaker cursers as is in my opinion, I think the added complexity is fine to keep it from being too weak.
Logged
The perfect engine
But it will never go off
Three piles are empty

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11218
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (´。• ω •。`)
  • Respect: +11893
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #83 on: November 17, 2014, 08:04:50 pm »
0

The Soothsayer thing I don't really get, Soothsayer's one of the weaker cursers as is in my opinion, I think the added complexity is fine to keep it from being too weak.

I think it's more confusing than complex. It's not obvious that the person "who did" gain a Gold doesn't draw a card.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's albums for free

werothegreat

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8165
  • Shuffle iT Username: werothegreat
  • Let me tell you a secret...
  • Respect: +9544
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #84 on: November 17, 2014, 08:40:17 pm »
+2

The Soothsayer thing I don't really get, Soothsayer's one of the weaker cursers as is in my opinion, I think the added complexity is fine to keep it from being too weak.

I think it's more confusing than complex. It's not obvious that the person "who did" gain a Gold doesn't draw a card.

Change the sentence to "Every other player gains a curse; if they did, they draw a card."
Logged
Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.  There are plenty of other people who are actively editing.  Go bother them!

Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

jaybeez

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 335
  • Shuffle iT Username: jaybeez
  • Respect: +395
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #85 on: November 17, 2014, 09:01:07 pm »
0

I think Masq without passing is a kind of boring card like Junk Dealer. I mean, with the current version you get weird scenarios, but you also get to pretend you're Oprah when your deck is awful. You get a Curse! And you get a Curse! Curses for everybody! It's unique and cute.

And without it there would be no way for anyone ever to experience the almost indescribable thrill of: Buy a Province, trash 2 Hovels.
Or have the opportunity to trash one of their Necropoleis.
Logged

Kirian

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7092
  • Shuffle iT Username: Kirian
  • An Unbalanced Equation
  • Respect: +9371
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #86 on: November 17, 2014, 09:18:26 pm »
+13

If I had a Dominion Time Machine, I would go back to the meeting of Jay with the representatives of Goko, taking with me printouts of some of the horrible press about Goko's launch.
Logged
Kirian's Law of f.DS jokes:  Any sufficiently unexplained joke is indistinguishable from serious conversation.

eHalcyon

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8689
  • Respect: +9156
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #87 on: November 17, 2014, 09:53:34 pm »
+6

If I had a Dominion Time Machine, I would go back to the meeting of Jay with the representatives of Goko, taking with me printouts of some of the horrible press about Goko's launch.

"Who is this crazed man claiming to be a time traveller and how did he get into this office?  Somebody call Security!"



And with my Dominion Time Machine, I would publicly post every card in Dark Ages as a fan expansion on some April 1 before DA is released and revel in all the comments that these things break all the unwritten rules of Dominion card design.
Logged

werothegreat

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8165
  • Shuffle iT Username: werothegreat
  • Let me tell you a secret...
  • Respect: +9544
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #88 on: November 17, 2014, 10:00:37 pm »
+1

With my time machine, I'd hold jsh and AdamH hostage until they told me the whereabouts of the prophesied 9th expansion.
Logged
Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.  There are plenty of other people who are actively editing.  Go bother them!

Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

eHalcyon

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8689
  • Respect: +9156
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #89 on: November 17, 2014, 10:06:30 pm »
+4

With my time machine, I'd hold jsh and AdamH hostage until they told me the whereabouts of the prophesied 9th expansion.

Or you could just go to the Chicago(?) meetup where the expansion was playtested. :P
Logged

werothegreat

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8165
  • Shuffle iT Username: werothegreat
  • Let me tell you a secret...
  • Respect: +9544
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #90 on: November 17, 2014, 10:22:02 pm »
0

With my time machine, I'd hold jsh and AdamH hostage until they told me the whereabouts of the prophesied 9th expansion.

Or you could just go to the Chicago(?) meetup where the expansion was playtested. :P

According to them, most of the cards tested there have either been cut or changed anyway.  :P
Logged
Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.  There are plenty of other people who are actively editing.  Go bother them!

Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

A Drowned Kernel

  • 2015 World Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1067
  • They/Them
  • Respect: +1976
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #91 on: November 17, 2014, 10:23:24 pm »
+1

I can tell you where it is: In Adam's gaming closet.
Logged
The perfect engine
But it will never go off
Three piles are empty

eHalcyon

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8689
  • Respect: +9156
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #92 on: November 17, 2014, 10:24:24 pm »
+1

With my time machine, I'd hold jsh and AdamH hostage until they told me the whereabouts of the prophesied 9th expansion.

Or you could just go to the Chicago(?) meetup where the expansion was playtested. :P

According to them, most of the cards tested there have either been cut or changed anyway.  :P

I suppose you could also go back and time and start streaming a lot of Dominion games such that you would be one of the chosen to playtest on isotropic.  That's a lot of work though.

Alternative plan: go back in time and steal AdamH's identity shortly after he is chosen.
Logged

Donald X.

  • Dominion Designer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5493
  • Respect: +22133
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #93 on: November 17, 2014, 11:41:29 pm »
+3

The Soothsayer thing I don't really get, Soothsayer's one of the weaker cursers as is in my opinion, I think the added complexity is fine to keep it from being too weak.
As an experienced player, it's easy to see the benefit of a card being at a slightly better power level, and easy to see the benefit of a card being slightly more interesting. It's hard to see the benefit of a card being slightly simpler. Being simpler is just drastically more valuable to the game though. Dominion is played by normal people.

This case is particularly crazy and well I struggle not to discuss strategy. The extra text wasn't possibly worth it, that's how I see it.
Logged

Elestan

  • Witch
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 471
  • Respect: +426
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #94 on: November 18, 2014, 01:39:41 am »
0

Saboteur is the biggest mistake here. Some people hate it because it can trash Provinces...
My thought here is to put the 3-6 range limiter on it, but make the card gain mandatory.  Fixes the Province-trashing problem, but buffs it by making it a hybrid trasher/junker.

Quote
I would look at ways to buff Scout.
Letting it grab curses (and possibly ruins) would be a good buff, and I also like the idea I saw on another thread of making it a 0-pt Victory card.

Quote
Masquerade has a clear simple wording and I would rather kill the card than make the wording awful.
I wish that Lighthouse/Moat would let a player ignore the card passing, but that might be hard to do with a simple wording.

Quote
Sea Hag should be a more powerful card for $5.
+1 Card, Discard a card?  That kind of goes in theme with Young Witch.

Quote
Lookout is the dud of the set. The problem is, some people are terrified of trashing a good card with it.
"In any order, trash a revealed card, put a revealed on top of your deck, and discard all revealed cards."

Quote
I do not look at Possession and think, oh I shouldn't have made that one.
I'm in the "no multiple turns" camp.  One friend of mine who hadn't been playing very long got turned off of the game when someone used KC-KC-Possession x3 on her.  It's just not fun for the possessed person to sit there taking orders for a half-hour.  Or for the other players watching.

Quote
That said, Loan is easily the dud for me...this flipping over of cards thing has to come paired with something like "and get the good ones" in order to not bum people out too much.
It could do the Lookout thing and let them top-deck, discard, or trash their next Treasure.

Quote
Talisman would be a lot more exciting if it could get VP cards somehow, but some people do like it as is. There might have been a good tweak there, dunno.
Use the Horn of Plenty technique, and make Talisman trash itself if it gains VP?

Quote
Harvest does the flip over cards thing, and I would try to fix that up, see if I could make a version that did not make your good cards go by.
Flip over four, discard any duplicates, gain coin equal to the number of remaining cards, and then top-deck them?
Logged

eHalcyon

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8689
  • Respect: +9156
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #95 on: November 18, 2014, 01:57:28 am »
0

"In any order, trash a revealed card, put a revealed on top of your deck, and discard all revealed cards."

A simpler wording with the same effect:

"Look at the top 3 cards of your deck.  You may trash one of them.  You may put one on top of you deck.  Discard the rest."

I like Lookout as is.
Logged

werothegreat

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8165
  • Shuffle iT Username: werothegreat
  • Let me tell you a secret...
  • Respect: +9544
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #96 on: November 18, 2014, 02:20:41 am »
0

Saboteur is the biggest mistake here. Some people hate it because it can trash Provinces...
My thought here is to put the 3-6 range limiter on it, but make the card gain mandatory.  Fixes the Province-trashing problem, but buffs it by making it a hybrid trasher/junker.

No.  Being able to trash Provinces and Colonies is the only thing Saboteur has going for it.
Logged
Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.  There are plenty of other people who are actively editing.  Go bother them!

Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

Davio

  • 2012 Dutch Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4733
  • Respect: +3327
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #97 on: November 18, 2014, 04:28:27 am »
+1

Saboteur is the biggest mistake here. Some people hate it because it can trash Provinces...
My thought here is to put the 3-6 range limiter on it, but make the card gain mandatory.  Fixes the Province-trashing problem, but buffs it by making it a hybrid trasher/junker.

No.  Being able to trash Provinces and Colonies is the only thing Saboteur has going for it.
I think most people hate it because
a) they don't like it when it's used against them (trashing their precious cards)
b) they don't like using it themselves as it provides no resources

At least in 2p it's often skippable, but imagine a 4p game with Saboteurs all around, that's not likely to be a fun game.
So we have a card which in 2p is often useless and when it's good, the game is no fun. And in 3p and 4p it can make a game horrible.

Knights mostly fixed this by limiting themselves to 3-6 costing cards, providing resources and removing themselves from the game.
Logged

BSG: Cagprezimal Adama
Mage Knight: Arythea

Asper

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4995
  • Respect: +5268
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #98 on: November 18, 2014, 05:16:40 am »
0

Wait, why wouldn't you want your opponent to prince your rats? Then I get more rats! Remake I can understand...

Because you are forced to trash a card every turn, with the chance of cards you can trash without losing something valuable sinking every turn. But okay, Remake is probably the better way to use Prince against somebody else.

werothegreat

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8165
  • Shuffle iT Username: werothegreat
  • Let me tell you a secret...
  • Respect: +9544
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #99 on: November 18, 2014, 07:00:53 am »
+2

Logged
Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.  There are plenty of other people who are actively editing.  Go bother them!

Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

Elestan

  • Witch
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 471
  • Respect: +426
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #100 on: November 18, 2014, 07:48:29 am »
0

imagine a 4p game with Saboteurs all around, that's not likely to be a fun game.
I've been in some of those; it can be annoying, but as usual, it depends on the board.  If there are lots of gainers, or the ability to silver-flood, you might not notice much.  With TR/KC, it can be intolerable.

But it's a good point; there are a number of attack cards that become dramatically more powerful/painful with more players:  Gainers (Thief, Noble Brigand, and Jester) gain more cards, and Pirate Ship gains coins more reliably.  Trash attacks do become more crippling when you get hit by more than one per turn.  Junking attacks become much more painful and swingy; since there are more Curses in the supply, anyone who takes more than their share can become hopelessly pinned.  If your Moats collide in the early stages of a multiplayer Familiar game, it's generally fatal.

Some off-the-top-of-my-head thoughts on how to mitigate this effect:
Thief, Noble Brigand, Jester:  Limit gain to 1 card.
Pirate Ship: Require hitting treasure on at least half of opponents (round up) to gain a coin.
Junkers:  Reveal two junk cards to defend against it.  Or (big change) add a rule that allows someone to skip their turn to trash up to X curses from their hand (determine X by playtesting).
Trashers: Not sure what to do here...you need some kind of testable state to tell if someone's already been hit, or is already so trashed that they shouldn't be beat down further.  Have them reveal their hand to show no card that costs more than X?
« Last Edit: November 18, 2014, 11:06:31 am by Elestan »
Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11218
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (´。• ω •。`)
  • Respect: +11893
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #101 on: November 18, 2014, 08:10:26 am »
+2

Some off-the-top-of-my-head thoughts on how to mitigate this effect:

My thoughts on the same subject: play 2 player games.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's albums for free

Asper

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4995
  • Respect: +5268
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #102 on: November 18, 2014, 08:25:35 am »
+7

Some off-the-top-of-my-head thoughts on how to mitigate this effect:

My thoughts on the same subject: play 2 player games.

If i want to play a 2 player game, i play chess. Boo all you want, i consider 3 player Dominion vastly more interesting and fun.

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11218
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (´。• ω •。`)
  • Respect: +11893
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #103 on: November 18, 2014, 08:30:05 am »
+2

Boo all you want

Boo! Boo!



Boo!


Ok, I'm done.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's albums for free

AdamH

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2803
  • Shuffle iT Username: Adam Horton
  • You make your own shuffle luck
  • Respect: +3832
    • View Profile
    • My Dominion Videos
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #104 on: November 18, 2014, 12:04:33 pm »
+2

I can tell you where it is: In Adam's gaming closet.

Funny story, the new set stuff isn't in my gaming closet :P

With my time machine, I'd hold jsh and AdamH hostage until they told me the whereabouts of the prophesied 9th expansion.

Or you could just go to the Chicago(?) meetup where the expansion was playtested. :P

According to them, most of the cards tested there have either been cut or changed anyway.  :P

I suppose you could also go back and time and start streaming a lot of Dominion games such that you would be one of the chosen to playtest on isotropic.  That's a lot of work though.

Alternative plan: go back in time and steal AdamH's identity shortly after he is chosen.

I wasn't chosen because I'm a streamer. I was chosen because I placed well in GokoDom III and I said I was going to the Chicago meetup and bringing a set of Dominion (meaning that I play IRL quite a bit, which I do).

I've done quite a bit of playtesting with my IRL group, who know everything about the new set as it stands now and also have access to iso. There was even one member of the forums who travelled to Cincinnati on business regularly for a while and would meet up with us for game nights sometimes -- he knows quite a bit about the set.

If you really want to know what's in the new set, well, it's a little late for that now: I'm not looking for more people to play with at this moment; but going back in time and stealing my identity probably wouldn't have been as productive as, you know, hanging out and playtesting stuff with me.
Logged
I respond to PMs.

enfynet

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1686
  • Respect: +1152
    • View Profile
    • JD's Custom Clubs
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #105 on: November 18, 2014, 06:25:32 pm »
+3

I feel like you just told me to drive to Cincinnati.
Logged
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious."

eHalcyon

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8689
  • Respect: +9156
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #106 on: November 18, 2014, 08:50:25 pm »
+4

I can tell you where it is: In Adam's gaming closet.

Funny story, the new set stuff isn't in my gaming closet :P

With my time machine, I'd hold jsh and AdamH hostage until they told me the whereabouts of the prophesied 9th expansion.

Or you could just go to the Chicago(?) meetup where the expansion was playtested. :P

According to them, most of the cards tested there have either been cut or changed anyway.  :P

I suppose you could also go back and time and start streaming a lot of Dominion games such that you would be one of the chosen to playtest on isotropic.  That's a lot of work though.

Alternative plan: go back in time and steal AdamH's identity shortly after he is chosen.

I wasn't chosen because I'm a streamer. I was chosen because I placed well in GokoDom III and I said I was going to the Chicago meetup and bringing a set of Dominion (meaning that I play IRL quite a bit, which I do).

I've done quite a bit of playtesting with my IRL group, who know everything about the new set as it stands now and also have access to iso. There was even one member of the forums who travelled to Cincinnati on business regularly for a while and would meet up with us for game nights sometimes -- he knows quite a bit about the set.

If you really want to know what's in the new set, well, it's a little late for that now: I'm not looking for more people to play with at this moment; but going back in time and stealing my identity probably wouldn't have been as productive as, you know, hanging out and playtesting stuff with me.

That's exactly what you'd say if you don't want your identity stolen by a time traveller.
Logged

Kirian

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7092
  • Shuffle iT Username: Kirian
  • An Unbalanced Equation
  • Respect: +9371
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #107 on: November 19, 2014, 08:39:01 am »
+6

I can tell you where it is: In Adam's gaming closet.

Funny story, the new set stuff isn't in my gaming closet :P

With my time machine, I'd hold jsh and AdamH hostage until they told me the whereabouts of the prophesied 9th expansion.

Or you could just go to the Chicago(?) meetup where the expansion was playtested. :P

According to them, most of the cards tested there have either been cut or changed anyway.  :P

I suppose you could also go back and time and start streaming a lot of Dominion games such that you would be one of the chosen to playtest on isotropic.  That's a lot of work though.

Alternative plan: go back in time and steal AdamH's identity shortly after he is chosen.

I wasn't chosen because I'm a streamer. I was chosen because I placed well in GokoDom III and I said I was going to the Chicago meetup and bringing a set of Dominion (meaning that I play IRL quite a bit, which I do).

I've done quite a bit of playtesting with my IRL group, who know everything about the new set as it stands now and also have access to iso. There was even one member of the forums who travelled to Cincinnati on business regularly for a while and would meet up with us for game nights sometimes -- he knows quite a bit about the set.

If you really want to know what's in the new set, well, it's a little late for that now: I'm not looking for more people to play with at this moment; but going back in time and stealing my identity probably wouldn't have been as productive as, you know, hanging out and playtesting stuff with me.

That's exactly what you'd say if you don't want your identity stolen by a time traveller.

Sure, but it's also what he would say if he had already had his identity stolen by a time traveler.

I think we all now know why Ozle disappeared.
Logged
Kirian's Law of f.DS jokes:  Any sufficiently unexplained joke is indistinguishable from serious conversation.

DStu

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2627
  • Respect: +1488
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #108 on: November 19, 2014, 11:28:30 am »
0

You could also just travel to the fuiure...

... Where we are going we don't need stolen identitied.

Edit oh, got ninjad in the memes thread, never minde...
« Last Edit: November 19, 2014, 11:37:52 am by DStu »
Logged

Asper

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4995
  • Respect: +5268
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #109 on: November 26, 2014, 09:20:38 pm »
0

The Soothsayer thing I don't really get, Soothsayer's one of the weaker cursers as is in my opinion, I think the added complexity is fine to keep it from being too weak.
As an experienced player, it's easy to see the benefit of a card being at a slightly better power level, and easy to see the benefit of a card being slightly more interesting. It's hard to see the benefit of a card being slightly simpler. Being simpler is just drastically more valuable to the game though. Dominion is played by normal people.

This case is particularly crazy and well I struggle not to discuss strategy. The extra text wasn't possibly worth it, that's how I see it.

I know this is a very late reply, and allthough i understand you looking for simplicity, i am not sure leaving out the "if he did" really would improve Soothsayer by that much to make it worth regretting stuff (assuming you regret doing it the way you did).

When blocking an attack by Moat or Lighthouse, it's clear (or at least pretty intuitive) that i don't have to gain a Curse. But what about the drawing? That doesn't seem like an attack. Moat says "unaffected by the attack", not "by the attack card". so does this mean i can draw a card? Council Room lets me draw one and there it isn't an attack. By adding "if he did" the point becomes moot, and i would argue it avoids confusion for new players who don't have that firm a grasp on what "attack" type means.

In a way, Minion and Margrave have that issue, but the way the attack works makes it more plausible. Still, the reason why i remembered this topic was that i recently read the comment of someone who thought he could reveal a Moat after drawing it through Margrave, so maybe what i am saying is not that absurd.

Donald X.

  • Dominion Designer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5493
  • Respect: +22133
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #110 on: November 26, 2014, 10:34:20 pm »
0

When blocking an attack by Moat or Lighthouse, it's clear (or at least pretty intuitive) that i don't have to gain a Curse. But what about the drawing? That doesn't seem like an attack. Moat says "unaffected by the attack", not "by the attack card". so does this mean i can draw a card? Council Room lets me draw one and there it isn't an attack. By adding "if he did" the point becomes moot, and i would argue it avoids confusion for new players who don't have that firm a grasp on what "attack" type means.
Well the fix would be for Moat to say "Attack card." "Card" is supposed to be implicit; there is no such thing as an Attack that is not an Attack card. But it could be explicit.
Logged

LastFootnote

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7084
  • Shuffle iT Username: LastFootnote
  • Respect: +9835
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #111 on: November 26, 2014, 10:40:53 pm »
+5

When blocking an attack by Moat or Lighthouse, it's clear (or at least pretty intuitive) that i don't have to gain a Curse. But what about the drawing? That doesn't seem like an attack. Moat says "unaffected by the attack", not "by the attack card". so does this mean i can draw a card? Council Room lets me draw one and there it isn't an attack. By adding "if he did" the point becomes moot, and i would argue it avoids confusion for new players who don't have that firm a grasp on what "attack" type means.
Well the fix would be for Moat to say "Attack card." "Card" is supposed to be implicit; there is no such thing as an Attack that is not an Attack card. But it could be explicit.

Whoa, you do have a Dominion time machine! You went back and made that fix already!

Logged

Donald X.

  • Dominion Designer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5493
  • Respect: +22133
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #112 on: November 26, 2014, 11:14:46 pm »
+10

Whoa, you do have a Dominion time machine! You went back and made that fix already!
"If you do, you are unaffected by that Attack"

"... card."
Logged

LastFootnote

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7084
  • Shuffle iT Username: LastFootnote
  • Respect: +9835
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #113 on: November 27, 2014, 12:39:44 am »
0

Whoa, you do have a Dominion time machine! You went back and made that fix already!
"If you do, you are unaffected by that Attack"

"... card."

Ah. I saw the first "card" and considered it sufficient.
Logged

Donald X.

  • Dominion Designer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5493
  • Respect: +22133
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #114 on: November 27, 2014, 01:59:02 am »
0

Ah. I saw the first "card" and considered it sufficient.
I too thought that was sufficient. But, perhaps not.
Logged

Asper

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4995
  • Respect: +5268
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #115 on: November 27, 2014, 09:13:50 am »
0

Ah, i remembered it as "unaffected by the attack", not "by that attack". Makes it harder to get it wrong.

Davio

  • 2012 Dutch Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4733
  • Respect: +3327
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #116 on: December 08, 2014, 05:02:44 am »
0

So we might make an attack card which says:

Attack part: Each other player gains a Curse
Non-attack part: Each other player may gain a Silver

Would have been cool to be able to make cards with an attack and non-attack interaction part.
Logged

BSG: Cagprezimal Adama
Mage Knight: Arythea

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8104
  • Respect: +8886
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #117 on: December 08, 2014, 11:57:27 am »
0

So we might make an attack card which says:

Attack part: Each other player gains a Curse
Non-attack part: Each other player may gain a Silver

Would have been cool to be able to make cards with an attack and non-attack interaction part.

Minion, Soothsayer, and Margrave all do this.
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

LastFootnote

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7084
  • Shuffle iT Username: LastFootnote
  • Respect: +9835
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #118 on: December 08, 2014, 12:15:42 pm »
0

So we might make an attack card which says:

Attack part: Each other player gains a Curse
Non-attack part: Each other player may gain a Silver

Would have been cool to be able to make cards with an attack and non-attack interaction part.

Minion, Soothsayer, and Margrave all do this.

I think he means such that you get the good part even if you Moat.
Logged

werothegreat

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8165
  • Shuffle iT Username: werothegreat
  • Let me tell you a secret...
  • Respect: +9544
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #119 on: December 08, 2014, 02:41:46 pm »
0

So we might make an attack card which says:

Attack part: Each other player gains a Curse
Non-attack part: Each other player may gain a Silver

Would have been cool to be able to make cards with an attack and non-attack interaction part.

Minion, Soothsayer, and Margrave all do this.

I think he means such that you get the good part even if you Moat.

I think it's more interesting if you can't.  With Soothsayer, it's actually a real decision whether or not to reveal Moat.
Logged
Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.  There are plenty of other people who are actively editing.  Go bother them!

Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

Davio

  • 2012 Dutch Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4733
  • Respect: +3327
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #120 on: December 09, 2014, 02:43:49 am »
0

So we might make an attack card which says:

Attack part: Each other player gains a Curse
Non-attack part: Each other player may gain a Silver

Would have been cool to be able to make cards with an attack and non-attack interaction part.

Minion, Soothsayer, and Margrave all do this.

I think he means such that you get the good part even if you Moat.
That's what I meant.

Reveal Moat to block the attack part, but still get the non-attack part. :)
Logged

BSG: Cagprezimal Adama
Mage Knight: Arythea

werothegreat

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8165
  • Shuffle iT Username: werothegreat
  • Let me tell you a secret...
  • Respect: +9544
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #121 on: December 09, 2014, 08:31:55 am »
0

So we might make an attack card which says:

Attack part: Each other player gains a Curse
Non-attack part: Each other player may gain a Silver

Would have been cool to be able to make cards with an attack and non-attack interaction part.

Minion, Soothsayer, and Margrave all do this.

I think he means such that you get the good part even if you Moat.
That's what I meant.

Reveal Moat to block the attack part, but still get the non-attack part. :)

I know.  That would be stupid.
Logged
Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.  There are plenty of other people who are actively editing.  Go bother them!

Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

Archetype

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 985
  • Suffers from Fancy Play Syndrom
  • Respect: +685
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #122 on: December 09, 2014, 06:21:19 pm »
+2

With my Dominion Time Machine, I'd go into the future and play with the 2015 expansion.
Logged

Seprix

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5590
  • Respect: +3609
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #123 on: December 20, 2014, 08:43:56 pm »
0

Duchess seems like an obvious fix to me. I'd make it so that you couldn't buy it, but you could gain one when you bought a Duchy. I'd make it just +$2 and +1 Action. It encourages 3 Pile endings to go for Duchies, since buying Duchies is faster. It just seems like an interesting strategy to go for in general, I dunno.
Logged
3/4ths retired

Drab Emordnilap

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1832
  • Shuffle iT Username: Drab Emordnilap
  • Luther Bell Hendricks V
  • Respect: +1881
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #124 on: December 20, 2014, 09:09:45 pm »
+1

Duchess seems like an obvious fix to me. I'd make it so that you couldn't buy it, but you could gain one when you bought a Duchy. I'd make it just +$2 and +1 Action. It encourages 3 Pile endings to go for Duchies, since buying Duchies is faster. It just seems like an interesting strategy to go for in general, I dunno.


What's wrong with Duchess? They can't all be the best card ever.
Logged

Asper

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4995
  • Respect: +5268
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #125 on: December 20, 2014, 10:05:23 pm »
+5

So we might make an attack card which says:

Attack part: Each other player gains a Curse
Non-attack part: Each other player may gain a Silver

Would have been cool to be able to make cards with an attack and non-attack interaction part.

Minion, Soothsayer, and Margrave all do this.

I think he means such that you get the good part even if you Moat.
That's what I meant.

Reveal Moat to block the attack part, but still get the non-attack part. :)

I know.  That would be stupid.

"I had an opinion, but after being called stupid i changed my mind."

blueblimp

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2803
  • Respect: +1519
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #126 on: December 21, 2014, 06:05:18 pm »
+1

Duchess seems like an obvious fix to me. I'd make it so that you couldn't buy it, but you could gain one when you bought a Duchy. I'd make it just +$2 and +1 Action. It encourages 3 Pile endings to go for Duchies, since buying Duchies is faster. It just seems like an interesting strategy to go for in general, I dunno.


What's wrong with Duchess? They can't all be the best card ever.
I'd go farther and claim that Duchess is actually pretty good and underrated. Its strength is that it's one of the easiest cards in the game to gain (because it's $2 and, if you are gaining a Duchy, you don't even need to use a buy) and having one in your deck is often enough better than having none. The free gain comes at a time in the game where you may well be happy to add a terminal silver to your deck but are busy spending your buys on VP cards instead.
Logged

TheOthin

  • Witch
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 459
  • Shuffle iT Username: TheOthin
  • Respect: +445
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #127 on: December 21, 2014, 08:52:15 pm »
+3

Duchess seems like an obvious fix to me. I'd make it so that you couldn't buy it, but you could gain one when you bought a Duchy. I'd make it just +$2 and +1 Action. It encourages 3 Pile endings to go for Duchies, since buying Duchies is faster. It just seems like an interesting strategy to go for in general, I dunno.
In two player, there are only eight Duchies, making it impossible to drain the Duchess pile without buying them.

Also I feel like its terminal aspect makes it really more of a decision whether or not to go for it, rather than its presence just meaning "get a free Silver with every Duchy".
Logged

qmech

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1918
  • Shuffle iT Username: qmech
  • What year is it?
  • Respect: +2315
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #128 on: December 22, 2014, 05:04:37 am »
0

Duchess seems like an obvious fix to me. I'd make it so that you couldn't buy it, but you could gain one when you bought a Duchy. I'd make it just +$2 and +1 Action. It encourages 3 Pile endings to go for Duchies, since buying Duchies is faster. It just seems like an interesting strategy to go for in general, I dunno.
In two player, there are only eight Duchies, making it impossible to drain the Duchess pile without buying them.

Also I feel like its terminal aspect makes it really more of a decision whether or not to go for it, rather than its presence just meaning "get a free Silver with every Duchy".

Ambassador!

I don't think I've done that before.  Now I feel dirty.
Logged

ackmondual

  • Witch
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 459
  • Respect: +291
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #129 on: March 08, 2017, 03:22:48 am »
0

This was my favorite line from Donald's explanation:

Explorer is fine, why do people even complain about Explorer. They can't all be the best $5 ever.
All $5 cards are the best, but some $5 cards are more best than others :D
Logged
Village, +2 Actions.  Village, +3 Actions.  Village, +4 Actions.  Village, +5 Actions.  Village, +6 Actions.  Village, +7 Actions.  Workers Village, +2 Buys, +8 Actions.  End Action Phase.  No Treasures to play.  No buy.  No Night cards to play

ackmondual

  • Witch
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 459
  • Respect: +291
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #130 on: March 08, 2017, 10:36:44 am »
0

Originally the set did not have tokens. Embargo put itself on a pile; Pirate Ship kept one treasure per attack and counted them; Pirate Ship and Native Village did have mats, but they were card-sized (when that changed I got to add Haven back in). If I had known the set would have counters, I would have tried to get more use out of them, just as I made two more VP token cards to go with Monument.

FWIW, a group initially shied away from Seaside because it didn't include the 'base cards'.  When I told them that at least it came with 2 sets of nice metal tokens, that got them to do a 180 to go out and get the expansion!
Logged
Village, +2 Actions.  Village, +3 Actions.  Village, +4 Actions.  Village, +5 Actions.  Village, +6 Actions.  Village, +7 Actions.  Workers Village, +2 Buys, +8 Actions.  End Action Phase.  No Treasures to play.  No buy.  No Night cards to play

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11218
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (´。• ω •。`)
  • Respect: +11893
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #131 on: March 08, 2017, 10:44:25 am »
+2

When blocking an attack by Moat or Lighthouse, it's clear (or at least pretty intuitive) that i don't have to gain a Curse. But what about the drawing? That doesn't seem like an attack. Moat says "unaffected by the attack", not "by the attack card". so does this mean i can draw a card? Council Room lets me draw one and there it isn't an attack. By adding "if he did" the point becomes moot, and i would argue it avoids confusion for new players who don't have that firm a grasp on what "attack" type means.
Well the fix would be for Moat to say "Attack card." "Card" is supposed to be implicit; there is no such thing as an Attack that is not an Attack card. But it could be explicit.

Whoa, you do have a Dominion time machine! You went back and made that fix already!



This post is pretty amazing in retrospect.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's albums for free

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8104
  • Respect: +8886
    • View Profile
Re: With my Dominion Time Machine...
« Reply #132 on: March 08, 2017, 10:56:16 am »
+2

but imagine a 4p game, that's not likely to be a fun game.

FTFY.
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0
Pages: 1 2 3 ... 6 [All]
 

Page created in 0.23 seconds with 20 queries.