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Author Topic: ...How did I screw up Ironworks/Gardens, exactly?  (Read 3728 times)

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Tombolo

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...How did I screw up Ironworks/Gardens, exactly?
« on: June 27, 2012, 04:43:39 pm »
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I thought that Caravan, Worker's Village, AND Workshop would combine for a pretty nifty Ironworks/Gardens rush, but my opponent was able to start getting Colonies before I was anywhere close to three-piling.  I am pretty sure that is not how Ironworks/Gardens is supposed to go, so can somebody tell me where I went astray?
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201206/27/game-20120627-133911-962317af.html
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RisingJaguar

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Re: ...How did I screw up Ironworks/Gardens, exactly?
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2012, 04:49:25 pm »
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Too slow to piles.  I forget how to precisely play it, but I would assume getting to 5-6 ironworks, then just blasting through piles.  Caravan doesn't help your cause at all.  Worker's village is important, but it should not be the focus and definitely not at the start.  It does have the +buys and the ability to gain multiple gardens.
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Ozle

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Re: ...How did I screw up Ironworks/Gardens, exactly?
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2012, 05:03:46 pm »
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Because you only have 2 Irtonworks I would assume.

Your deck looks more like Caravan/Gardens and im pretty sure thats no good.
Theres about 8 times you play Caravans in the first 15 or so turns, they could all have been Ironworks and getting gardens!

I think you would want to hammer the ironworks first, then go for the Gardens.

Plus, there are workshops on the board, and workshop/gardens is the original combo!
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jonts26

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Re: ...How did I screw up Ironworks/Gardens, exactly?
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2012, 05:09:47 pm »
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The point of the IW/Gardens rush is just that, it's a rush. Your goal is not to amass a ton of points. Your goal is to end the game ASAP. This game lasted 28 turns. Sure you got your gardens up to 7 points, but you know, Colonies are still worth 10. And draining colonies in 28 turns is not that hard to do, especially with a fantastic card in masquerade.

There are basically 2 ways to do the IW/Gardens rush. One when you are both doing the rush, and the other when it's only you. When it's both players, yeah you want to start in on the gardens pretty soon and you dont need a ton of IW. This is because, you need more gardens likely to win. If you aren't contested, then you need to drain 3 piles all by yourself. In this case, get a lot more IW (or workshops) before going in on the gardens.
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Jorbles

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Re: ...How did I screw up Ironworks/Gardens, exactly?
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2012, 05:51:17 pm »
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You probably want to pile out Ironworks before getting any Gardens (unless your opponent starts looking like they might want Gardens themselves). After that with that many Ironworks you'll have a hard time not emptying a third pile. Caravan might be faster, if your opponent is also getting them. Worker's Villages are a good pile because you can use the +Buys for Copper and maybe get an extra 8 points out of your Gardens. Estate also works though as it's just 8 points right there.
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ftl

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Re: ...How did I screw up Ironworks/Gardens, exactly?
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2012, 06:36:16 pm »
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Example solo game : 51 points in 17 turns, piling with gardens, estates, IW.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201206/27/game-20120627-133911-962317af.html

At that point in the game, your opponent had just gotten his second colony.

Or, here's one, http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201206/27/game-20120627-153306-8a3ef595.html , 39 points in 15 turns, piling out IW, workshops, gardens.

Those aren't optimal, those are just two quick tries, possibly Worker's Village would have been a better pile than Workshops, or maybe grabbing an odd cache early on would have been a better idea, but these are closer to good IW/gardens play when your opponent isn't matching you.
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Tombolo

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Re: ...How did I screw up Ironworks/Gardens, exactly?
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2012, 07:05:28 pm »
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So basically, I should've gone heavier on Ironworks since he wasn't fighting me for Gardens?  That...makes quite a lot of sense, actually.  Here I thought two might've been over-doing it.  I tried to abort and get some points the old-fashioned way, but knew it was too late.
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Robz888

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Re: ...How did I screw up Ironworks/Gardens, exactly?
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2012, 07:08:18 pm »
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So basically, I should've gone heavier on Ironworks since he wasn't fighting me for Gardens?  That...makes quite a lot of sense, actually.  Here I thought two might've been over-doing it.  I tried to abort and get some points the old-fashioned way, but knew it was too late.

Should have been ALL Ironworks, man. Ironworks Ironworks until they're gone, if he's not fighting you for Gardens.
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DG

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Re: ...How did I screw up Ironworks/Gardens, exactly?
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2012, 07:39:04 pm »
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Quote
Should have been ALL Ironworks, man. Ironworks Ironworks until they're gone, if he's not fighting you for Gardens.

Almost but you can take some worker's villages as well if your deck is getting heavily packed with ironworks and workshops. They will let you play more cards for gardens and give you the extra buy.

Even with great supporting cards the garden deck isn't assured of victory. There is a fine haggler deck here as well that could easily outscore the gardens even in a rush game. You've always got to remember that colonies do score very highly compared to gardens.
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greatexpectations

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Re: ...How did I screw up Ironworks/Gardens, exactly?
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2012, 08:20:56 pm »
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Should have been ALL Ironworks, man. Ironworks Ironworks until they're gone, if he's not fighting you for Gardens.

i disagree.  if you make it blatantly clear that you are going for gardens i'm not sure you can wait that long, especially on this board.  there is decent engine potential, offering both plus buys and extra haggler gains.  if you wait too long your opponent can get a double/triple garden turn after their engine is already developed and you are in massive trouble.  you either need to somehow avoid tipping your hand before rushing piles or you should work on the gardens early.  in this game i would probably avoid caravans entirely and get one worker's village for every 3 IW.
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Grujah

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Re: ...How did I screw up Ironworks/Gardens, exactly?
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2012, 08:41:28 pm »
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Opening Workshop/Ironworks makes it pretty clear you're going for Gardens. No need to hide it.
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Kirian

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Re: ...How did I screw up Ironworks/Gardens, exactly?
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2012, 09:15:07 pm »
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So basically, I should've gone heavier on Ironworks since he wasn't fighting me for Gardens?  That...makes quite a lot of sense, actually.  Here I thought two might've been over-doing it.  I tried to abort and get some points the old-fashioned way, but knew it was too late.

Should have been ALL Ironworks, man. Ironworks Ironworks until they're gone, if he's not fighting you for Gardens.

Importantly, the reason IW is so awesome with Gardens is that if you draw two IWs, hey, IW an IW, then use the second one to get a Garden with the bonus action... and if you're really lucky, draw into $4!  My turns 8 and 9 in this game look like that:

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120626-192328-470cb384.html

Note that you should be able to three-pile by T16 or so, as pointed out by ftl above.  You have to pile out, and pile out fast, and if you're doing it alone you have to go very fast indeed.
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ednever

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Re: ...How did I screw up Ironworks/Gardens, exactly?
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2012, 09:26:53 pm »
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1- If you are playing a good player you can't 'hide' a gardens rush. Ever.

2- There are two key gardens strategies - rush or non-rush. Both can be viable in different situations. This looks like a rush board

3- IW always gives you a $4 buy. Worker's Village gives up a +$0 buy. IW > WV every time in a gardens rush

4- I would pick up ~8 IW. Then you will end up with overlap a ton. On overlap turns you want to pick up Actions cards first, then end on Gardens. If the other guy starts picking up Gardens you have likely already won - he's helping you end early. (If you buy IW-Workshop on turns 2/3, then pick up IW->IW, W->IW, $->IW, W on turns 3/4; then after the next flip on turns 5-6-7 you will be so far into the IW that you can start diving into Gardens pretty hard. No way an engine can get built faster than that that can threaten you

Ed
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