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Author Topic: Request: Tribute  (Read 10241 times)

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Cuzz

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Request: Tribute
« on: June 27, 2012, 10:53:25 am »
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I'd really like some insight on how best to use Tribute. It's the only card in the game (I think) for which you don't even know how many actions you'll have left after playing it, so I tend to have some decision paralysis when I draw it with, say two good terminals or a terminal draw. Because of this I'm sure I ignore it more often than I should. Obviously it requires paying close attention to the composition of your opponent's deck and comparing that with the needs of yours. And I'd think it's best in mirror matches (opponent plays BM = more money for you; opponent's engine strengthens yours). But some more advice would be helpful.
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DStu

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Re: Request: Tribute
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2012, 11:05:01 am »
+1

Quote
It's the only card in the game (I think) for which you don't even know how many actions you'll have left after playing it
Golem.

However, I'm not an expert on Tribute, but I don't like it as Village in an engine. If there is no other good Village, your opponent will probably not build an engine, so you don't get the +actions, so you can't build an engine.  If there is an engine on the board, I usually pick up something else than Tribute, and want to have enough Villages that I don't need it. Given the case that I happen to have an engine, but no Villages in hand, but Tribute and other terminals, I might play the Tribute, because hey, playing terminal draw will also probably not help, and I might start my engine.
In BigMoney, you usually don't have this problems, and getting +4coins or +2coins+2cards is very very good in this decks. You are not guaranteed to get them, that's why I like some cards more for BigMoney, but it's not that bad...
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blueblimp

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Re: Request: Tribute
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2012, 11:13:50 am »
+1

Maybe the most frustrating-yet-useful case for Tribute is a board with Goons, no village, and plenty of useful cantrips. Multi-Goons turns are so good, but it's a coinflip every time you want one.
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Kahryl

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Re: Request: Tribute
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2012, 11:18:51 am »
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Actions are inherently "cheaper" than +$ or +cards, so generally Tribute is going to be strongest in Big Money vs. Big Money (and, of course, when there are hybrid cards). +2cards +$2 is worth at least a $5 card, and in Big Money it's perfect.
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Varsinor

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Re: Request: Tribute
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2012, 02:09:53 pm »
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It may be obvious, but since nobody has mentioned it so far:

Tribute is stronger with dual-type cards on the board (i. e. Harem, Nobles, Island, Great Hall). (Even in case your opponent adapts to your Tributes by not buying the dual-type cards, because that at least means he has to do without these cards which he otherwise would have liked to have.)

Tribute is weaker when there are cursers on the board as hitting a Curse with Tribute gives you nothing.

So the paradigm for exceptionally strong Tributes should probably be a board with several dual-type cards and without cursers.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Request: Tribute
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2012, 03:02:49 pm »
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The biggest problem with Tribute is its unpredictability. It's hard to build a strategy around a card when you don't know what it's going to do. The way I see it, there are 2 things that make it useable:
1. Opponent is building a homogenous deck, so you can have a reasonable expectation for what it will do (e.g. vs near-pure-BM it gets you money and sometimes cards, vs scrying pool it gets you actions).
2. There are dual-type cards, so it can potentially give you 3 bonuses instead of 2. This particularly works with Nobles, because Nobles also have some versatility. If you get the actions you need from your Tribute, you can play Nobles for cards, but if not, you can get more actions out of Nobles if needed.

Presumably deck-top inspection like Spy could help, but I've never actually done it. For anything other than Scrying Pool, it seems like it's going through too many hoops for something not that great, but then again, if there's really nothing better on the board than Tribute, you might have the time to actually  get it going...
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Kahryl

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Re: Request: Tribute
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2012, 03:21:24 pm »
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What's even worse about Tribute is that most mid-tier cards (Lab, Silver, Village, Smithy, Peddler..) will give you about 3 vanilla "things", whereas Tribute on most boards will sometimes give you 4 but with a very good chance of giving you 2.. and 2 is about as bad as not having a card at all (would you buy a +2 cards, +2$ or +2 actions card, even for free? I see people turning down Duchess more often than not!). So even if on average you're getting 3 - no better than another mid-tier card - and with the bonus drawback of being unpredictable. It really, really should not have the "different cards" clause. 4 guaranteed "things" with the drawback of not getting to plan around it would be balanced.
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Insomniac

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Re: Request: Tribute
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2012, 03:50:43 pm »
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Tribute is acceptable on a fairgrounds board where your opopnent is working on their fairground amount of cards.  You just have to really watch what they buy because if its a ton of actions tribute will often be +4 actions
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DG

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Re: Request: Tribute
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2012, 05:09:47 pm »
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You get the most value from tribute when your opponent creates a deck that will provide the tribute results you want. If you want +coins and your opponent has trashed some estates and copper with masquerades then the tribute might work. If you want +actions and your opponent has trashed out all the copper, perhaps for a scrying pool deck, then the tribute might work. Generally a wise opponent will not be kind enough to boost your tributes but since tributes come into play quite rarely a foolish opponent might just forget they are in the kingdom.

So when do they come into play more generally? They can be good in a big money deck playing against another big money deck. They can be good when your deck produces extra actions and the tributes can provide cards and coins. They can be good when used with golems, king's courts, and thrones since repeated tributes are no longer dependent on just a couple of cards to provide the desired result.
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O

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Re: Request: Tribute
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2012, 05:53:33 pm »
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What's even worse about Tribute is that most mid-tier cards (Lab, Silver, Village, Smithy, Peddler..) will give you about 3 vanilla "things", whereas Tribute on most boards will sometimes give you 4 but with a very good chance of giving you 2.. and 2 is about as bad as not having a card at all (would you buy a +2 cards, +2$ or +2 actions card, even for free? I see people turning down Duchess more often than not!). So even if on average you're getting 3 - no better than another mid-tier card - and with the bonus drawback of being unpredictable. It really, really should not have the "different cards" clause. 4 guaranteed "things" with the drawback of not getting to plan around it would be balanced.

Tribute very rarely gives you "2" of something. 4$, +2 cards +2$, 4 cards are all strong BM options while tribute CAN function as an engine enabler if ignoring the engine is a losing strategy, which is relatively frequently. I'd put tribute as a better card than Lab tbh, but I'm in the minority.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Request: Tribute
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2012, 06:09:02 pm »
+2

Quote
It's the only card in the game (I think) for which you don't even know how many actions you'll have left after playing it
Golem.

Throne Room -> Throne Room -> Smithy
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Powerman

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Re: Request: Tribute
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2012, 06:19:09 pm »
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Outside of dual type cards (Nobles, etc.) and curses there are only 9 possibilities of what bonus you receive:

1. +2 Cards (Worth less than $2)
2. +2 Actions (Worth less than $2)
3. +$2 (Worth about $2)
4. +2 Cards/+2 Actions (Worth more than $5... probably $6)
5. +2 Cards/+$2 (Worth around $5)
6. +2 Actions/+$2 (Worth slightly less than $5)
7. +4 Cards (Worth slightly more than $5)
8. +4 Actions (Worth maybe $4?)
9. +$4 (Worth about 6 on an action?)

As you can see, 3 of the 9 options make tribute a terrible card, 3 of the 9 make it an average card, and 3 of the 9 make it quite a good card.  Curses obviously make the card much worse, while dual victory make it significantly better (nothing like hitting harem/nobles).  So my general strategy with tribute is to ignore it unless I am fairly certain I can avoid the 3 bad options or I am in desperate need of a potential +Actions card.  Of course as it's been said, KC can make it really good.
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gman314

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Re: Request: Tribute
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2012, 06:59:50 pm »
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Of course as it's been said, KC can make it really good.

Yeah, but KC makes almost anything good. Saboteur is better when you can trash 3 cards and Thief is better when you mine through 6 cards.
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Kahryl

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Re: Request: Tribute
« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2012, 07:02:20 pm »
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KC will triple anything's power, but it not only triples Tribute, it fixes Tribute's reliability problem. Whether you happen to need actions, cards, or money, chances are you'll get a bunch.  So KC is better for Tribute than for most cards (though I'd still rather use it on something geometric like Bridge)
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jomini

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Re: Request: Tribute
« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2012, 09:57:56 pm »
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An odd bit of synergy is fortune teller. FT -> Trib will almost always generate +4 cards (very strong in an engine), or some version of a trusty steed (which is also not bad in an engine). Rabble can have this effect as well, but too quickly the opponent will just top deck 2 of the same card making the Trib a non-reaction moat.

Another option that tends to work out better for tribute is golem. Golem -> tribute -> something else works quite well as tribute can make for early megaturns and mixing in other options (particularly intrigue cards) can let you get knowledge about your tribute hit first and then decide how to adapt afterwards. E.g. Golem -> tribute -> pawn allows you to use the pawn for an action if you need it or for card/coin (or buy) if you don't.

Spy can improve your odds of hitting something good, but fortune teller is much better - it can soak up the +actions for draw and it can set up your next tribute (e.g. discarding double coppers).

Another fun synergy is diadem. Tribute, particularly against action heavy engines, or with TR/KC can stack up quickly to a lot of unused actions. If the good prizes (normally followers/trusty steed) are gone, diadem can make tribute into a monster payout card when folks don't expect it.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Request: Tribute
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2012, 10:07:14 pm »
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There's a bit of anti-synergy between FT and Tribute as well though, isn't there?  Tribute nullifies the attack portion of FT.  I guess this holds true for most Spy cards though.
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jomini

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Re: Request: Tribute
« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2012, 12:07:36 am »
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When using deck inspection to set up others attacks you normally nullify a lot of the attack power of the inspection attack. Setting up spy -> thief means that you discard estates and coppers in order to get a bigger payout of stealing a gold. Likewise using your scrying pool to flip down coppers and estates in order to jester festivals and scrying pools sacrifices the attack of SP to boost the gain from the jester. You can use deck inspection to increase or decrease the odds of something valuable being on top deck for your opponent, without attacks, you normally want to decrease. With some attacks you want to increase because the payout is high enough.

While tribute isn't a proper attack, it can be worth it trade off some attack punch in order to gain better payouts.
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