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Author Topic: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenges #1 and #2!  (Read 63358 times)

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rinkworks

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Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenges #1 and #2!
« on: June 25, 2012, 02:14:40 pm »
+25

I enjoyed having a fan card contest in here some time ago (run by Davio; thanks!) and thought it would be interesting to do so again.  But I wanted to do something different than simply allowing contestants to submit whatever card they wanted.  So I thought of the idea of having a small series of contests, each with its own narrow set of constraints.

I'll roll these out one week at a time, with two card design challenges per week.  I haven't decided how many weeks I'm going to go, but not too many.  Maybe four or five?  Each week, we'll be able to vote on the previous week's submissions.   So each card design challenge will have a separate winner, which means at the end of the series we'll have designed, as a community, a small Dominion expansion!

Submission Rules

* Submit no more than one card per person per challenge.  You do not need to submit for all challenges if you don't want to, but of course you can't win if you don't compete.
* Submit your cards to me via this forum's messaging system.  Submissions made after each week's deadline cannot be accepted.
* Each card you submit must have a name, a cost, a list of types, and the exact wording that should appear on the card.  Also include a brief description of any special design considerations (e.g., Stash having a unique back), but do NOT include any other information, such as strategic commentary or examples about it would play.
* Although you must submit names for each of your cards, the names will not be listed on the voting ballots, so make sure your card's appeal does not depend on your choice of name.
* I will accept revisions to your contest entries provided they are submitted to me before the deadline.  If you submit a revision to an entry you have previously submitted to me, resubmit your revised card(s) in their entirety.  That is, don't tell me "Oh, can you make that +2 Cards say +3 Cards instead?"  Just resubmit the full card.
* Only submit cards that are your own design.
* You may submit cards that have been previously posted here in this forum, including those that have been refined by the community as a whole, provided you can still claim that the central conceit of the card -- and the majority of its final version -- is yours.
* A single card might conceivably qualify for multiple challenges within this series.  However, you may not submit the same card for more than one challenge.
* Do not disclose your submissions publicly, either in this thread or elsewhere!

Voting Rules

At the end of each submission period, I'll post the cards I've received with placeholder names and accept votes for the best ones.  Obviously you may not vote for your own cards.  More on how we will do this later.  The end result will be that we'll have a single card winning each individual contest.   At the end of the series, each individual winning card will be listed together in the Mini-Fan Expansion that is the real ultimate goal of this enterprise.

--

The deadline for this week's challenges is Monday, July 2, at 8am EDT.

--

Challenge #1 - Peddler Variant

Objective: Design a card that offers +1 Card, +1 Action, and +$1 (e.g., Peddler).  It may offer other benefits or penalties, but it must offer at least +1 Card, +1 Action, and +$1, and it may not offer more cards than +1 Card, more actions than +1 Action, or more $ than +$1.  Receipt of these bonuses may, however, be conditional upon meeting some requirement (e.g., Tournament), as long as sometimes you may receive all three required bonuses.

Official Examples: Peddler, Market, Treasury, Oasis, and Tournament would all qualify for this challenge.

Official Non-Examples: Bazaar wouldn't qualify because it offers too many +Actions.  Grand Market wouldn't qualify because it offers too much $.  Pawn wouldn't qualify because although you can get +1 Card, +1 Action, and +$1 out of it, you can't get ever get all three.

--

Challenge #2 - Curser

Objective: Design a card that may cause other players to gain Curses.  It need not always dispense Curses, so long as it does so at least some of the time it is used.  The card text must specifically mention Curses (thus disqualifying Ambassador, which would otherwise qualify).

Official Examples: Witch, Young Witch, Sea Hag, Torturer, Mountebank, Familiar, Jester, Ill-Gotten Gains.

Official Non-Examples: Ambassador and Swindler, because although they can cause other players to gain Curses, Curses aren't mentioned on their card texts.   Masquerade has the same problem, plus the technicality that cards passed via Masquerade do not count as "gained."

--

Ballots

Challenge #1 Entries
Challenge #2 Entries

--

Results

Challenge #1 Results
Challenge #2 Results
« Last Edit: July 20, 2012, 11:36:24 am by rinkworks »
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ChocophileBenj

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Part 1!
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2012, 02:33:16 pm »
0

Okay, a design challenge :)
But you should have miswritten something : "The card text must specifically mention Curses (thus disqualifying Ambassador, which would otherwise qualify).", and you list Swindler in the official examples (and on my 1st games, I swindled coppers into coppers !!!)
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rinkworks

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Part 1!
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2012, 02:38:49 pm »
0

Okay, a design challenge :)
But you should have miswritten something : "The card text must specifically mention Curses (thus disqualifying Ambassador, which would otherwise qualify).", and you list Swindler in the official examples (and on my 1st games, I swindled coppers into coppers !!!)

Ah, you're right.  I'll fix this in the original post.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Part 1!
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2012, 02:57:44 pm »
+2

rinkworks, how do you feel about using an approval voting system for this? A.K.A., each voter may vote for as many cards as they choose, but may not vote for any card more than once. It might provide a little more smoothness to the curve if we have a small number of voters and also would eliminate "third party candidate syndrome". By that I mean that if cards A and B are very similar and the vote ends up being Card A: 30%, Card B: 30%, and Card C: 40%, Card C wins even though 60% of people preferred the basic concept of cards A and B.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2012, 04:00:59 pm by LastFootnote »
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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Part 1!
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2012, 02:59:33 pm »
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Looks like fun! I will contribute.
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Dsell

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Part 1!
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2012, 03:14:17 pm »
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I think this is a great idea. I like LastFootnote's idea for voting.

Question, though. If I have an idea for a card but I don't know if it's priced right or maybe I want criticism on some part of it, would it be a good idea or a bad idea to post it on the forum for others to critique? I've posted a couple cards here before but I don't have a wealth of community-enhanced ideas to draw on for this challenge.

I feel like if many people post their ideas and have them tweaked and enhanced before submitting, it could enhance the overall final expansion. But if only a couple post their ideas beforehand, it may give them an advantage with the voters who worked to help improve the card.

If posting ideas here is frowned upon I will probably still submit but I don't have a great way to playtest some of my more insane fun concepts.
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Qvist

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Part 1!
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2012, 03:16:10 pm »
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Great idea. Excellent idea.

I will definitely contribute. Let's activate the synapses and think of great cards.

Ozle

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Part 1!
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2012, 03:18:11 pm »
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Entered
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gman314

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Part 1!
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2012, 03:19:40 pm »
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I will definitely post something.
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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Part 1!
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2012, 03:20:02 pm »
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Can Duration cards and dual type cards be submitted, or are there card type limitations?
Are we allowed to use VP chips, mats, or unique tokens?
For the Peddler variant, may the card conditionally, but not inherently, provide more than 1 Card, 1 Action, and 1 Coin?
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jamuspsi

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Part 1!
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2012, 04:37:32 pm »
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I have my ideas figured out.  Do we post them or PM them?
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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Part 1!
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2012, 04:46:48 pm »
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I have my ideas figured out.  Do we post them or PM them?

"Submit your cards to me via this forum's messaging system"
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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Part 1!
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2012, 06:20:24 pm »
+1

Perhaps we can also keep this going by (eventually) giving you ideas for particular contests. Enough so that we can get it to at least mini-fan expansion size, possibly full. Though at some point, we would probably want some challenge like "Design a card that fits well with the set so far, with restrictions: It needs to be of this (these) type(s), cost X, and have something to do with Y".

Dsell

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Part 1!
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2012, 07:03:01 pm »
0

I think this is a great idea. I like LastFootnote's idea for voting.

Question, though. If I have an idea for a card but I don't know if it's priced right or maybe I want criticism on some part of it, would it be a good idea or a bad idea to post it on the forum for others to critique? I've posted a couple cards here before but I don't have a wealth of community-enhanced ideas to draw on for this challenge.

I feel like if many people post their ideas and have them tweaked and enhanced before submitting, it could enhance the overall final expansion. But if only a couple post their ideas beforehand, it may give them an advantage with the voters who worked to help improve the card.

If posting ideas here is frowned upon I will probably still submit but I don't have a great way to playtest some of my more insane fun concepts.

Does anybody have a good answer to this? Rinkworks, do you have a preference?

I have 3 ideas so far to fit into these 2 categories, and I'd love some input from those who are more experienced with fan cards to be sure they aren't too game breaking weird. But I don't want to post them on the forum if that wasn't the intent of the OP.
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rinkworks

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Part 1!
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2012, 07:39:06 pm »
0

Some assorted replies, but first I added a clause to the requirements for Challenge #1, which was something I thought was covered but apparently hadn't.  Namely, that it needs to be possible to receive all three required bonuses -- +1 Card, +1 Action, and +$1 -- on a single play of the card.  Tournament still counts, because although you don't get all three bonuses every time, you do get all of them sometimes.  However, Pawn does NOT qualify, because although you can get all three bonuses with it, you can't ever get them all at the same time.

Only one of the cards I've received so far are affected by this additional rule, and I'll work that issue out with the author through PM's.

rinkworks, how do you feel about using an approval voting system for this?

I hadn't completely decided on a voting system, but I did want to use some system that would avoid the usual problems with "first-past-the-post" voting systems.  My thought was to give everybody a fixed number of points to distribute how they please, but I think your suggestion is a simpler and less swingy solution.  Anybody object?

Question, though. If I have an idea for a card but I don't know if it's priced right or maybe I want criticism on some part of it, would it be a good idea or a bad idea to post it on the forum for others to critique? I've posted a couple cards here before but I don't have a wealth of community-enhanced ideas to draw on for this challenge.

I feel like if many people post their ideas and have them tweaked and enhanced before submitting, it could enhance the overall final expansion. But if only a couple post their ideas beforehand, it may give them an advantage with the voters who worked to help improve the card.

My intention for that allowance was to avoid locking out people who had already posted card ideas in here and spent time refining them.  The trade-off is that it allows people to be able to know whose card was whose, but I figured if there was some old thread with a card in it, most people either wouldn't remember it or at least wouldn't remember whose it was.  But if we post cards this week for this week's contest, it'll be a lot more obvious what's happening and akin to disclosing your submissions before the results are in.  Additionally, to address your final point, I suspect most people will be submitting "cold."  So I'm inclined to disallow this.  I'm open to arguments to the contrary, but let's say no for now.

Can Duration cards and dual type cards be submitted, or are there card type limitations?
Are we allowed to use VP chips, mats, or unique tokens?
For the Peddler variant, may the card conditionally, but not inherently, provide more than 1 Card, 1 Action, and 1 Coin?

Yes to your first question.  Unless a particular challenge has a type restriction (neither of this week's do, but some future ones will), you have free reign on the type(s) of your cards.

Yes to your second question.  VP chips, mats, and unique tokens are all allowed.  If you're inventing a mechanic Dominion doesn't already have (like some new kind of token), make sure it's clear how that mechanic works.

No to your second question.  The card can only ever put 0 or 1 cards into your hand, supply 0 or 1 actions, and yield 0 or 1 coins.  (If you have a card that conditionally provides more of any of these, there is probably going to be a future challenge that that card will fit into.)

Perhaps we can also keep this going by (eventually) giving you ideas for particular contests. Enough so that we can get it to at least mini-fan expansion size, possibly full. Though at some point, we would probably want some challenge like "Design a card that fits well with the set so far, with restrictions: It needs to be of this (these) type(s), cost X, and have something to do with Y".

Sounds fun to me.  I want to avoid dragging it out too long, but I'm happy to see how things go (and how much work tabulating the results turns out to be) and play the number of challenges by ear.  Once I get through my initial slate of challenge ideas, I do think it would awesome to solicit challenge ideas from everyone.
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rinkworks

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Part 1!
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2012, 07:52:27 pm »
0

One more quick note:  I caught a couple of grammar errors on submissions I've received so far.  I decided to reply to these submitters and point that out.  I (1) won't guarantee to find all grammatical problems, and (2) won't point any other kind of wording issue out, such as, for example, one not using the right Dominion terminology.  But I figured English would be a terrrible thing to lose a potentially good card to, especially when English might not be the first language of all submitters.
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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Part 1!
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2012, 07:55:29 pm »
0

I speak English, don't show me mercy on grammar.  See; that's a comma splice right there.

I'm gonna make a game out of guessing which card is whose.
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Grujah

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Part 1!
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2012, 09:17:08 pm »
0

Solution:
Warlock Guild
$7
Action - Attack
+1 Card
+1 Action
+1$
Each other player gains a Curse card.
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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Part 1!
« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2012, 09:31:11 pm »
0

But if we post cards this week for this week's contest, it'll be a lot more obvious what's happening and akin to disclosing your submissions before the results are in.  Additionally, to address your final point, I suspect most people will be submitting "cold."  So I'm inclined to disallow this.  I'm open to arguments to the contrary, but let's say no for now.

I've been working on a set of cards that I happened to be ready to post today, just as this contest came up. I submitted my cards to you as well as posted a thread about my set. To be honest I'd rather get feedback on my cards even if it means being disqualified for the contest, but the disqualification is your decision to make. No hard feelings if you do.
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popsofctown

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Part 1!
« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2012, 09:37:10 pm »
+2

I think an elimination style would be better for picking the winner.  The problem I fear with LastFootnote's method is that an outstanding but controversial card like "Goons" or "Bishop" doesn't get a universal seal of approval even though it's large impact is a good large impact.
I think something like American Idol would work best.  On that show, whoever has the fewest votes of "this is my absolute favorite guy" is eliminated each round.  Until only two or three are left, and then people whose favorites are knocked out vote for the preferable remaining competitors.

That takes weeks, but you could emulate the same process using ordered lists.  Each "round" you assume each player voted for the highest remaining card on his list, and eliminate whichever card had the least votes, rinse and repeat. 

It is kinda complicated but I think it synthesizes opinions the best.  In Footnote's method, if I think Bishop and Goons both seem too screwy to work out well, I have to vote no on both.  But if I happen to like the trash-for-benefit-as-a-win con philosophy of Bishop better than Goons' design philosophy, I'm left with no way to indicate that.  You could say my opinion is invalid because I didn't like either, but I don't think it's so with Dominion cards, I can approve of how a card works if it reaches healthy function and at the same time be skeptical that it can actually function that way.  If I'm wrong in the latter, more objective assessment I would still want to express my subjective opinion.

Does anyone see what I'm getting at?  I'm not sure I do anymore.
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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Part 1!
« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2012, 09:40:48 pm »
0

We no can submit proposed art?
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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Part 1!
« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2012, 10:59:02 pm »
0

Sent in my submissions, but the message isn't showing up in my "sent items" folder. I'm always a little paranoid about this sort of thing. Any idea what's up?

Edit: Ah, I didn't check the box to save a copy. Disregard this post.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2012, 11:19:09 pm by iangoth »
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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Part 1!
« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2012, 03:39:14 am »
+1

Sent in my submissions, but the message isn't showing up in my "sent items" folder. I'm always a little paranoid about this sort of thing. Any idea what's up?

Edit: Ah, I didn't check the box to save a copy. Disregard this post.

There is also an option to make that always on in your settings in case you forget again
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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Part 1!
« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2012, 09:50:57 am »
0

I think an elimination style would be better for picking the winner.  The problem I fear with LastFootnote's method is that an outstanding but controversial card like "Goons" or "Bishop" doesn't get a universal seal of approval even though it's large impact is a good large impact.
I think something like American Idol would work best.  On that show, whoever has the fewest votes of "this is my absolute favorite guy" is eliminated each round.  Until only two or three are left, and then people whose favorites are knocked out vote for the preferable remaining competitors.

That takes weeks, but you could emulate the same process using ordered lists.  Each "round" you assume each player voted for the highest remaining card on his list, and eliminate whichever card had the least votes, rinse and repeat. 

It is kinda complicated but I think it synthesizes opinions the best.  In Footnote's method, if I think Bishop and Goons both seem too screwy to work out well, I have to vote no on both.  But if I happen to like the trash-for-benefit-as-a-win con philosophy of Bishop better than Goons' design philosophy, I'm left with no way to indicate that.  You could say my opinion is invalid because I didn't like either, but I don't think it's so with Dominion cards, I can approve of how a card works if it reaches healthy function and at the same time be skeptical that it can actually function that way.  If I'm wrong in the latter, more objective assessment I would still want to express my subjective opinion.

Does anyone see what I'm getting at?  I'm not sure I do anymore.


I believe what you are trying to describe is the Alternative Vote system which the Great British public were unfortunately not intelligent enough to understand and adopt in a referendum not long ago. I, however, fully support the use of this system whenever possible.

Will also be submitting cards for this at some point.
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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Part 1!
« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2012, 10:01:11 am »
0

Whoa.  Cool!
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