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Author Topic: [Discussion] DominionStrategy Qualifier for 2012 US National Championships  (Read 25921 times)

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theory

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Please leave feedback for the tournament here.
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antony

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+2

Does "American" mean American nationality or just living in the US?
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theory

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+2

I believe it is people who live in the US, but I will clarify.
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popsofctown

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Whats the date? I still can't find it :/
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nightdance

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I signed up without looking at the time and I actually cannot make it tomorrow. Can you remove me from the list for tomorrow? Thanks.
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theory

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Whats the date? I still can't find it :/
The date for the US Nationals?  July 14.
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ednever

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Theory: are you still running a round of the tournament tomorrow? I can't find anything in the forum. Did I miss something?

Ed
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zxcvbn2

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Ed:
Look at the front page. Here: dominionstrategy.com
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popsofctown

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I suffered from my habit of ignoring the front page as well.
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HiWay2Hello

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Question:

If only three people in a qualifying pod show up, how is seating order determined for the fourth game?
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theory

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That is an excellent question to which I do not have a good answer.  I would suggest the standard Dominion rule, which is the person to the left of the last person that won goes first, and rotate around from there.
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HiWay2Hello

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Ok, seems reasonable enough!
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zxcvbn2

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Re: DominionStrategy Qualifying Day Results
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2012, 05:34:32 pm »
+2

I'm really, really sorry for beating this dead horse but there really needs to be a point system here. It is not really close to fair, with some people playing four 3p games (more wins available per player each match) and some shared wins resulting in more wins per player per match. I know it's really too late to change anything, and now that we've started I definitely wouldn't advocate changing anything now that we've started, but this is not close to fair.

/endswhining
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Stringer Bell

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Re: Re: DominionStrategy Qualifying Day Results
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2012, 05:38:18 pm »
0

I'm really, really sorry for beating this dead horse but there really needs to be a point system here. It is not really close to fair, with some people playing four 3p games (more wins available per player each match) and some shared wins resulting in more wins per player per match. I know it's really too late to change anything, and now that we've started I definitely wouldn't advocate changing anything now that we've started, but this is not close to fair.

/endswhining

It is a very strange system, it would have been much easier to assign points based on finish in each game, like so many other tournaments do. Give 4 points to the winner, 3 points to second, and so on. In the case of a tie, like we had in the pod I was in, the two tied for first place would each get 3.5 points, and the two tied for third would each get 1.5 points. If you want to put more weight on winning the match, give 5 points to the winner, and 3, 2, and 1 to the rest.
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theory

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Re: Re: DominionStrategy Qualifying Day Results
« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2012, 05:57:11 pm »
0

I'm really, really sorry for beating this dead horse but there really needs to be a point system here. It is not really close to fair, with some people playing four 3p games (more wins available per player each match) and some shared wins resulting in more wins per player per match. I know it's really too late to change anything, and now that we've started I definitely wouldn't advocate changing anything now that we've started, but this is not close to fair.

/endswhining
How would it have changed the results so far?  I don't think it's too late to change.

I think it's going to be fundamentally unfair no matter what, when you have both 4p and 3p games.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Re: DominionStrategy Qualifying Day Results
« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2012, 06:04:11 pm »
0

I'm really, really sorry for beating this dead horse but there really needs to be a point system here. It is not really close to fair, with some people playing four 3p games (more wins available per player each match) and some shared wins resulting in more wins per player per match. I know it's really too late to change anything, and now that we've started I definitely wouldn't advocate changing anything now that we've started, but this is not close to fair.

/endswhining
How would it have changed the results so far?  I don't think it's too late to change.

I think it's going to be fundamentally unfair no matter what, when you have both 4p and 3p games.
It IS too late to change. I definitely would have played differently in my third game if the tournament were structured differently, and my best guess would be that I get 2nd there rather than 4th. I probably don't qualify anyway, but the point is you play differently. There's one of the other games where I would have ended it whilst in second, and I end up getting second anyway, but again, the point is that you play differently.

Of course, I agree that having 3s mixed with 4s is going to make intrinsically unfair, and moreso than this effect.

theory

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Re: Re: DominionStrategy Qualifying Day Results
« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2012, 06:06:56 pm »
+1

No, what I mean is, if the current system is unfair, we can change it for the next days.  Obviously I will not change retroactively.

That having been said, yeah, the go-for-the-win or settle-for-second is a deep philosophical problem, and we have to pick a side.  I think a points system would misleadingly suggest that settling for seconds can actually have you advance: even under most point systems, you'll need to win in order to advance.  (E.g., with 5-3-2-1 I believe the results would be identical to today's, as 4 wins > 3 wins > 2 wins no matter what.)
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zxcvbn2

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Re: Re: DominionStrategy Qualifying Day Results
« Reply #17 on: June 24, 2012, 06:07:31 pm »
0

I'm really, really sorry for beating this dead horse but there really needs to be a point system here. It is not really close to fair, with some people playing four 3p games (more wins available per player each match) and some shared wins resulting in more wins per player per match. I know it's really too late to change anything, and now that we've started I definitely wouldn't advocate changing anything now that we've started, but this is not close to fair.

/endswhining

How would it have changed the results so far?


First of all, that's not what prompted my feelings on this.

Second of all, the it depends on how you score it. If 3-player wins are equal to 4-player wins, than virtually nothing changes. If they are worth different amounts (which I think they should be) than the qualifiers wouldn't have changed, but knaacka probably would have taken third or fourth, maybe even lower for having no second place finishes (third place = 0 points).

And the fact that it doesn't change the results in this case is not a good argument for. It could have affected the results.

I'm going to actually calculate and edit.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Re: DominionStrategy Qualifying Day Results
« Reply #18 on: June 24, 2012, 06:16:04 pm »
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No, what I mean is, if the current system is unfair, we can change it for the next days.  Obviously I will not change retroactively.

That having been said, yeah, the go-for-the-win or settle-for-second is a deep philosophical problem, and we have to pick a side.  I think a points system would misleadingly suggest that settling for seconds can actually have you advance: even under most point systems, you'll need to win in order to advance.  (E.g., with 5-3-2-1 I believe the results would be identical to today's, as 4 wins > 3 wins > 2 wins no matter what.)
Generally. But 1st x3, 4th == 1stx2, 2nd x3; 1st, 2nd x3 beats some 2 win things, etc. Which will probably not come into play much, but it depends on how many people you get - and I would guess you'd get less, not more, in subsequent qualifiers.
Further, I very much like consistency, and though I prefer point systems, I wouldn't change at this point. Not to mention that actual nationals are Winner-Take-All

Kirian

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Re: Re: DominionStrategy Qualifying Day Results
« Reply #19 on: June 24, 2012, 06:16:22 pm »
+1

Well what about HiWay2Hello in our pod? He had a 2nd, t-1st, 3rd, and 1st. Does the t-1st count as a win? That would put him on the same level as Personman...would they have to have a playoff in order to figure out who moved on?
Even if it counted as a win, people defeated is the first tiebreak, yes? And HiWay2Hello would have one fewer person defeated, because he certainly didn't beat the guy he tied with.

Neither did Personman.  They each defeated 8 and tied 1 by my count.
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Kirian

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Re: Re: DominionStrategy Qualifying Day Results
« Reply #20 on: June 24, 2012, 06:26:29 pm »
+1

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest again that multiplayer winner-take-all is the most arbitrary system that could have been used, that still involved actual gameplay.  And I'm actually not convinced that using a poll would have been more arbitrary, especially given the total of only four games used, all with the same four people.  Not a single qualifier demonstrated superiority of play over more than three people here.

The seat rotation method used was poor too, since we're bringing up flaws.  With two excellent players and two people who bought cards at random in a pod, it was possible for one of the excellent players to go before the other one three times.
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zxcvbn2

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Re: Re: DominionStrategy Qualifying Day Results
« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2012, 06:38:19 pm »
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By weighting 4-player matches as 4 points a win and 3 player matches as 3 points a win, which I think is pretty fair, knaacku ends in a tie for 7th.

I use two different methods. One was 4-2-1-0 for 4 player games and 3-1-0 for 3 player games. The other was 8-3-1-0 for 4p and 6-2-0 for 3 player. Points were shared in ties. For instance, a two-player tie for first in a four player game was 3 points each in the first method, 5.5 in the second. In both scenarios, the order was:
1. pirate ship economist
2. Cielo Azor
3. Personman
4. Mic Qsenoch

If you don't think that's fair, to weight four-player games more than 3-player games, then I guess that's a different argument.

Edit: Here's a spreadsheet with everyone's score by either method. I didn't include the 3p that didn't play all their games. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ah6dTyQTfYBBdFUtS2VRVlVWUmpjdElqMVhPcENkbnc

Edit 2: I just looked at it again. In the first method, Mic Qsenoch and HiWay2Hello would have needed to play a playoff match to decide the winner.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2012, 06:50:39 pm by zxcvbn2 »
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Re: DominionStrategy Qualifying Day Results
« Reply #22 on: June 24, 2012, 06:38:38 pm »
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The tiebreak rules definitely need clarification, especially the "number of opponents defeated". I thought this was just a way to distinguish between the four and three player pods, but others in this thread have taken it differently (and their interpretation is perfectly reasonable). The other thing which is unclear to me is how ties within a game are counted. Is a 3-4 tie counted as a third place finish for both players or something between third and fourth?
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knaacku

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Re: Re: DominionStrategy Qualifying Day Results
« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2012, 07:07:32 pm »
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I think ideally you take x-number of signups.  Everyone else in a waiting list, so they can fill the slots of the no shows.  This way you can everyone have 4-p games.  I like the scoring now, as long as there is the same number of players in each game.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2012, 07:32:54 pm by knaacku »
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Re: DominionStrategy Qualifying Day Results
« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2012, 07:48:03 pm »
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zxcvbn's proposal is still unbalanced, it just gives the three player pods the shaft now. Winning three of 4 games should be enough for the three player pod winners to advance. I think the point values need adjustment, but its hard to find the right spot where all the outcomes seem reasonable.
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