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Author Topic: DominionStrategy Qualifer Results  (Read 54707 times)

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Personman

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Re: DominionStrategy Qualifer Results
« Reply #125 on: July 06, 2012, 06:05:39 pm »
0

Why not jtl005? He seemed like a good sport, and I bet he'd be willing to play and act impartially (or hell, he can try to kingmake if he really wants, I suppose, he could have done that just the same if we'd played it out on the day).

Failing that, I nominate you, theory, as the third player. I trust you to play at a similar level to any of us and to take the game seriously, and I don't think ednever has any reason to object to you more than any other player.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2012, 06:08:36 pm by Personman »
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theory

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Re: DominionStrategy Qualifer Results
« Reply #126 on: July 06, 2012, 06:06:55 pm »
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I mean, I can ask.  But jtl005's stated reason for not wanting to go to Nationals was Dominion burnout, so I wouldn't hold my breath.  Not to mention trying to arrange a time for the three of you to play again.

Of course if you two can agree on a third person to play in the match, then by all means, go for it.

This is also deeply unfair to a host of other people (WW, the people that jtl005 defeated, etc.).  But that is inevitable in such situations.
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O

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Re: DominionStrategy Qualifer Results
« Reply #127 on: July 06, 2012, 06:08:58 pm »
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The tournament rules for breaking ties assumed that all games had been played.  Given the imbalances in seating order, this seemed to be the most fair way to adjudicate an incomplete but tied match, akin to P1 losing on turns.

Did you even ask Ednever? If you haven't asked Ednever whether he's fine with a playoff, I think this ruling is so obviously tainted that if it stood I would probably just leave this community.
Well, you know, if I asked ednever, I assume he'd say he didn't want a playoff.  Whether or not he or Personman wants one should be irrelevant.

I'd like for you to play a 3p playoff match.  But what, do you just insert a random third person as P2?

I find it incredibly relevant whether the person you're gifting a victory would prefer a playoff. And I bring this up because I've played many a game with Ednever and know him to be of outstanding character, so really it's not at all clear what he would say.

I think Timchen would be an excellent third player to add in if you meant for a chance at winning, if you don't... therein lies obvious kingmaking issues and adding a 3rd player only changes the dynamics of the game, rather than performance (1st and 2nd 2P is equivalent to 1st and 3rd 3P for ednever and personman.) 

PPE: JTL would also be fine if he were willing.
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Personman

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Re: DominionStrategy Qualifer Results
« Reply #128 on: July 06, 2012, 06:09:30 pm »
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Sorry, I was editing my post when you posted, so I'm just posting again to make sure you see it. Would you (theory) be willing to be the third player if ednever agrees?

I don't see how this unfair to WW at all, and I think he'd agree - he withdrew well before jtl005 did.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2012, 06:11:28 pm by Personman »
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theory

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Re: DominionStrategy Qualifer Results
« Reply #129 on: July 06, 2012, 06:11:36 pm »
+1

OK.  Let's try to arrange a time with ednever, then, ASAP.

This is obviously a weird game because I have no incentive to win and the two of them only care about beating each other.   Ah well.
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GigaKnight

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Re: DominionStrategy Qualifer Results
« Reply #130 on: July 06, 2012, 06:14:42 pm »
+1

OK.  Let's try to arrange a time with ednever, then, ASAP.

This is obviously a weird game because I have no incentive to win and the two of them only care about beating each other.   Ah well.

Well, with Nationals on the line, you have every incentive to win.  Go theory!  I hope you make it to Chicago!

(That was a joke)
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blueblimp

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Re: DominionStrategy Qualifer Results
« Reply #131 on: July 06, 2012, 06:14:47 pm »
+1

Whether or not he or Personman wants one should be irrelevant.

Totally agree here. Asking ednever what he wants to do is just shifting the burden of a decision to him, which I don't think is fair. (Edit: Which is to say I agree with your original call 100%.)
« Last Edit: July 06, 2012, 06:17:50 pm by blueblimp »
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theory

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Re: DominionStrategy Qualifer Results
« Reply #132 on: July 06, 2012, 06:17:25 pm »
+8

OK.  Let's try to arrange a time with ednever, then, ASAP.

This is obviously a weird game because I have no incentive to win and the two of them only care about beating each other.   Ah well.

Well, with Nationals on the line, you have every incentive to win.  Go theory!  I hope you make it to Chicago!

(That was a joke)

If Personman and ednever tie, I swear I will just award the spot to drheld (author of the point counter).
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O

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Re: DominionStrategy Qualifer Results
« Reply #133 on: July 06, 2012, 06:18:16 pm »
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Whether or not he or Personman wants one should be irrelevant.

Totally agree here. Asking ednever what he wants to do is just shifting the burden of a decision to him, which I don't think is fair.

Better to shift the burden of decision to him then to arbitrarily making a ruling inconsistent with any stated rules, without asking either player.
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theory

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Re: DominionStrategy Qualifer Results
« Reply #134 on: July 06, 2012, 06:19:54 pm »
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Whether or not he or Personman wants one should be irrelevant.

Totally agree here. Asking ednever what he wants to do is just shifting the burden of a decision to him, which I don't think is fair. Edit: Which is to say I agree with your original call 100%.

I would rather have a decision that satisfies everyone rather than one that is fair.

I don't think a 3p playoff with a random third person is very fair.  If I (or whoever the sub is) am stuck in a kingmaking position at the end of the game, I can't make a move either way without accusations of bias.  But this is the solution that would satisfy the most people.
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blueblimp

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Re: DominionStrategy Qualifer Results
« Reply #135 on: July 06, 2012, 06:20:24 pm »
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Whether or not he or Personman wants one should be irrelevant.

Totally agree here. Asking ednever what he wants to do is just shifting the burden of a decision to him, which I don't think is fair.

Better to shift the burden of decision to him then to arbitrarily making a ruling inconsistent with any stated rules, without asking either player.
There's no possible way for a rule to cover this situation.
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eHalcyon

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Re: DominionStrategy Qualifer Results
« Reply #136 on: July 06, 2012, 06:20:42 pm »
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The tournament rules for breaking ties assumed that all games had been played.  Given the imbalances in seating order, this seemed to be the most fair way to adjudicate an incomplete but tied match, akin to P1 losing on turns.

Did you even ask Ednever? If you haven't asked Ednever whether he's fine with a playoff, I think this ruling is so obviously tainted that if it stood I would probably just leave this community.

But then who will kick off Mafia games with a random vote?  :(

The tournament rules for breaking ties assumed that all games had been played.  Given the imbalances in seating order, this seemed to be the most fair way to adjudicate an incomplete but tied match, akin to P1 losing on turns.

Did you even ask Ednever? If you haven't asked Ednever whether he's fine with a playoff, I think this ruling is so obviously tainted that if it stood I would probably just leave this community.
Well, you know, if I asked ednever, I assume he'd say he didn't want a playoff.  Whether or not he or Personman wants one should be irrelevant.

I'd like for you to play a 3p playoff match.  But what, do you just insert a random third person as P2?

Could you have jtl play anyway? (Edit: neglected to read the most recent page, oops.)
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theory

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Re: DominionStrategy Qualifer Results
« Reply #137 on: July 06, 2012, 06:21:18 pm »
0

jtl005 has already declined to play.  I don't blame him -- if he can't even go play Dominion with a free trip to Chicago, I don't want to force him to play now.
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Re: DominionStrategy Qualifer Results
« Reply #138 on: July 06, 2012, 06:22:27 pm »
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Whether or not he or Personman wants one should be irrelevant.

Totally agree here. Asking ednever what he wants to do is just shifting the burden of a decision to him, which I don't think is fair.

Better to shift the burden of decision to him then to arbitrarily making a ruling inconsistent with any stated rules, without asking either player.
There's no possible way for a rule to cover this situation.

There was a tie in points, and a tie in points suggested that a playoff would occur. I still can't find the rules but I imagine they don't include "unless for some reason not all games were played and there was inequal turn order", so the logical answer would be a playoff.

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timchen

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Re: DominionStrategy Qualifer Results
« Reply #139 on: July 06, 2012, 06:27:14 pm »
+3

This is crazy stuff. After so much hassle, the winner now declined to go?
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blueblimp

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Re: DominionStrategy Qualifer Results
« Reply #140 on: July 06, 2012, 06:27:34 pm »
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Whether or not he or Personman wants one should be irrelevant.

Totally agree here. Asking ednever what he wants to do is just shifting the burden of a decision to him, which I don't think is fair.

Better to shift the burden of decision to him then to arbitrarily making a ruling inconsistent with any stated rules, without asking either player.
There's no possible way for a rule to cover this situation.

There was a tie in points, and a tie in points suggested that a playoff would occur. I still can't find the rules but I imagine they don't include "unless for some reason not all games were played and there was inequal turn order", so the logical answer would be a playoff.
I can't find the full finals rules either. Originally, every player would get an equal number of starts from each position, so that couldn't matter as a tiebreaker.

Edit: My reasoning at this point is: either you go with the results you have, or you get new results. The results available now indicate that ednever performed slightly better, because of turn order. If you want new results, the logical thing to do is to advance players from the other qualifier days to fill out to 4 people, then run the finals again.

(Re-edit: But I'm not seriously suggesting re-running the finals...)
« Last Edit: July 06, 2012, 07:14:53 pm by blueblimp »
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Robz888

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Re: DominionStrategy Qualifer Results
« Reply #141 on: July 06, 2012, 06:38:32 pm »
+1

Jeez, theory! You just can't catch a break, huh?
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nopawnsintended

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Re: DominionStrategy Qualifer Results
« Reply #142 on: July 06, 2012, 07:08:24 pm »
+1

Whether or not he or Personman wants one should be irrelevant.

Totally agree here. Asking ednever what he wants to do is just shifting the burden of a decision to him, which I don't think is fair.

Better to shift the burden of decision to him then to arbitrarily making a ruling inconsistent with any stated rules, without asking either player.
There's no possible way for a rule to cover this situation.

There was a tie in points, and a tie in points suggested that a playoff would occur. I still can't find the rules but I imagine they don't include "unless for some reason not all games were played and there was inequal turn order", so the logical answer would be a playoff.
I can't find the full finals rules either. Originally, every player would get an equal number of starts from each position, so that couldn't matter as a tiebreaker.

Edit: My reasoning at this point is: either you go with the results you have, or you get new results. The results available now indicate that ednever performed slightly better, because of turn order. If you want new results, the logical thing to do is to advance players from the other qualifier days to fill out to 4 people, then run the finals again.

Aside from all the headaches this would cause, seems reasonable.  After all, wasn't there concern that 3P matches didn't perfectly represent 4P, and that nationals will be 4P?  I thought it was strange that the final ended up being 3P.

On the other hand, I understand wanting to avoid the ugliness of involving others in the final (and involving others seems unfair to those who already competed in the final, too).  I'm just glad that I'm not in theory's shoes.  A playoff btw Pman and ednever seems lowest cost.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2012, 07:29:10 pm by nopawnsintended »
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timchen

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Re: DominionStrategy Qualifer Results
« Reply #143 on: July 06, 2012, 07:12:00 pm »
+1

At this point, maybe not the fairest thing to do , but I think theory you should DQ personman and let ednever go.
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Personman

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Re: DominionStrategy Qualifer Results
« Reply #144 on: July 06, 2012, 07:15:24 pm »
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Um, on what grounds?

As far as I recall, no one in the long drama thread was even claiming that I did anything that deserved a  DQ, only that my ideals & beliefs were contemptible and moronic.
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timchen

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Re: DominionStrategy Qualifer Results
« Reply #145 on: July 06, 2012, 07:18:28 pm »
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theory said if he anticipated the turn of events he would have DQed you. Here's another chance.

But seriously, I just think we should find someone who can somewhat represent our community. That is the main reason.
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eHalcyon

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Re: DominionStrategy Qualifer Results
« Reply #146 on: July 06, 2012, 07:19:27 pm »
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As much as I disagree with Personman's position on the extension, theory ultimately allowed him to do what he did, so I see no grounds for disqualification.  Maybe I'm missing something though, as I've only observed the debates in these forums...
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Personman

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Re: DominionStrategy Qualifer Results
« Reply #147 on: July 06, 2012, 07:21:22 pm »
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Well, if this has become a popularity contest, I sure won't win it. You've got me there.

On the other hand, I don't anticipate doing anything at Nationals, if I go, that would reflect badly on this community.
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ftl

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Re: DominionStrategy Qualifer Results
« Reply #148 on: July 06, 2012, 07:24:42 pm »
+3

Oh god. The drama continues. Just when I thought it was all over.

I feel truly sorry for everyone involved.
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sjelkjd

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Re: DominionStrategy Qualifer Results
« Reply #149 on: July 06, 2012, 07:44:30 pm »
+1

If you want my 2cents, any one of the finalists would be a good representative, having proved their skill at 4p dominion to get out of their groups.  So just have a 2p playoff between Personman and ednever.
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