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Author Topic: How many niches for village-types are left? Can you think of any new ones?  (Read 27772 times)

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Tejayes

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Re: How many niches for village-types are left? Can you think of any new ones?
« Reply #50 on: October 27, 2011, 10:19:52 am »
0

This one comes from my still-in-major-progress Locomotion expansion:

DEPOT VILLAGE
---
+1 Card
+2 Actions
You may put a Victory card from your hand on top of your deck. If you do, +$2.
--
Action - $4


And another that I've been toying with in the past (of course, it's just borrowing from Great Hall and Harem, but whatever):

HISTORIC VILLAGE
---
+1 Card
+2 Actions
-
2 VP
--
Action/Victory - $6


One more that popped into my head, so it's bound to stink:

RESORT VILLAGE
---
+2 Cards
+2 Actions
+$2
-
This card can only be gained by trashing a Gold from your hand during your Buy phase. If you do, forfeit all other buys this turn. You cannot buy or gain this card any other way.
--
Action - 0*
« Last Edit: October 27, 2011, 10:29:39 am by Tejayes »
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Jimmmmm

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Re: How many niches for village-types are left? Can you think of any new ones?
« Reply #51 on: October 27, 2011, 08:09:04 pm »
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I think if you compare Village to Smithy and Historic Village to Nobles, Historic Village shouldn't be more than $5.
Also with Resort Village I think you need to be more explicit about under which conditions you're allowed to trash a Gold for the RV.
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Tejayes

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Re: How many niches for village-types are left? Can you think of any new ones?
« Reply #52 on: October 28, 2011, 10:05:40 am »
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Also with Resort Village I think you need to be more explicit about under which conditions you're allowed to trash a Gold for the RV.

How about this?

RESORT VILLAGE
---
+2 Cards
+2 Actions
+$2
-
This card can only be gained by trashing a Gold from your hand at the start of your Buy phase. If you do, forfeit all other buys this turn. This card cannot be bought or gained any other way.
--
Action - 0*
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rinkworks

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Re: How many niches for village-types are left? Can you think of any new ones?
« Reply #53 on: October 28, 2011, 10:32:13 am »
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How about:  "In games using this, you may trash a Gold at the start of your Buy phase.  If you do, gain this and forfeit all buys for this turn.  This card cannot be bought or gained in any other way."

Still not completely convinced that's the ideal wording, but maybe it suffices.  If you tweaked the buy conditions a little, you could word it more cleanly.  For example, you could cost it at $7 (to be out of reach of Smugglers, though not Jester) and say:  "You can't buy this unless you have at least two Golds in play.  When you buy this, trash all Golds you have in play."

Obviously that's quite different from what you're going for, and I'm not saying it's better (just an off-the-cuff thought, really), but it's a way to attach a stiff penalty to purchasing it that doesn't require quite as much rules manipulation.  FWIW.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: How many niches for village-types are left? Can you think of any new ones?
« Reply #54 on: October 28, 2011, 10:45:12 am »
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How about:  "In games using this, you may trash a Gold at the start of your Buy phase.  If you do, gain this and forfeit all buys for this turn.  This card cannot be bought or gained in any other way."

That's what I meant. Saying "The only way to do X is Y" does not imply "You may do Y".
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Tejayes

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Re: How many niches for village-types are left? Can you think of any new ones?
« Reply #55 on: October 28, 2011, 10:49:31 am »
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How about:  "In games using this, you may trash a Gold at the start of your Buy phase.  If you do, gain this and forfeit all buys for this turn.  This card cannot be bought or gained in any other way."

I like that. Thanks.
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Re: How many niches for village-types are left? Can you think of any new ones?
« Reply #56 on: October 30, 2011, 10:07:19 pm »
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I think if you compare Village to Smithy and Historic Village to Nobles, Historic Village shouldn't be more than $5.
Also with Resort Village I think you need to be more explicit about under which conditions you're allowed to trash a Gold for the RV.

I don't think that's a very good analogy. Nobles is not that great of a card, and often ends up a liability to someone trying to build an engine. Sure, it's worth 2 vp in the end, but you could easily get ahead much further with dedicated action cards. The +1 card of a Village makes such a huge difference. I'd be much happier to see Historic Village in a hand with 1 other action, than draw a hand containing Nobles and 1 other action.
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rinkworks

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Re: How many niches for village-types are left? Can you think of any new ones?
« Reply #57 on: October 31, 2011, 09:33:31 am »
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I think if you compare Village to Smithy and Historic Village to Nobles, Historic Village shouldn't be more than $5.
Also with Resort Village I think you need to be more explicit about under which conditions you're allowed to trash a Gold for the RV.

I don't think that's a very good analogy. Nobles is not that great of a card, and often ends up a liability to someone trying to build an engine. Sure, it's worth 2 vp in the end, but you could easily get ahead much further with dedicated action cards. The +1 card of a Village makes such a huge difference. I'd be much happier to see Historic Village in a hand with 1 other action, than draw a hand containing Nobles and 1 other action.

I think the logic, roughly, is:  "Smithy is a better card than Village and therefore costs more than it.  Therefore, Smithy + 2 VP (aka: Nobles) should cost more than Village + 2 VP (aka: Historic Village)."  The fact that Nobles can be used for actions instead of for cards only further increases its power relative to Historic Village.

I probably agree, although it's important to recognize that costs in the $2-4 range aren't necessarily comparable to costs in the $5-6 range.  I think Nobles is pretty underrated, mostly because it might be weak for a $6 card.  But it's still way better than a Smithy, which is a pretty strong $4.  In the absence of good combos, you'd probably usually rather have Nobles than Historic Villages.  Nobles makes a better X in a BM+X deck, and spamming Nobles is a lot better than spamming Historic Villages.

But a good counterargument might be to consider Harem as well.  Harem is a Silver + 2 VP, with those VP bumping the cost from $3 to $6.  Following that example, Village + 2 VP should indeed cost $6.  I suspect that both $5 and $6 are workable costs for the card, and you won't go hugely wrong either way.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: How many niches for village-types are left? Can you think of any new ones?
« Reply #58 on: October 31, 2011, 10:21:44 am »
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I think if you compare Village to Smithy and Historic Village to Nobles, Historic Village shouldn't be more than $5.
Also with Resort Village I think you need to be more explicit about under which conditions you're allowed to trash a Gold for the RV.

I don't think that's a very good analogy. Nobles is not that great of a card, and often ends up a liability to someone trying to build an engine. Sure, it's worth 2 vp in the end, but you could easily get ahead much further with dedicated action cards. The +1 card of a Village makes such a huge difference. I'd be much happier to see Historic Village in a hand with 1 other action, than draw a hand containing Nobles and 1 other action.

I think the logic, roughly, is:  "Smithy is a better card than Village and therefore costs more than it.  Therefore, Smithy + 2 VP (aka: Nobles) should cost more than Village + 2 VP (aka: Historic Village)."  The fact that Nobles can be used for actions instead of for cards only further increases its power relative to Historic Village.

I probably agree, although it's important to recognize that costs in the $2-4 range aren't necessarily comparable to costs in the $5-6 range.  I think Nobles is pretty underrated, mostly because it might be weak for a $6 card.  But it's still way better than a Smithy, which is a pretty strong $4.  In the absence of good combos, you'd probably usually rather have Nobles than Historic Villages.  Nobles makes a better X in a BM+X deck, and spamming Nobles is a lot better than spamming Historic Villages.

But a good counterargument might be to consider Harem as well.  Harem is a Silver + 2 VP, with those VP bumping the cost from $3 to $6.  Following that example, Village + 2 VP should indeed cost $6.  I suspect that both $5 and $6 are workable costs for the card, and you won't go hugely wrong either way.

Yes pretty much all of this. The +2 Actions on Nobles is a bonus just in case you need it.

I did consider the Silver -> Harem argument, but I don't think this is as comparable to the others since it's a Treasure. The rest are all just dealing with + Cards and + Actions (and VP obviously) so are much more comparable. Sometimes you're after Treasure, sometimes you're after Actions. I just don't think a Village compares very well to the Action part of Nobles. It's okay that Harem and Nobles are the same price because their non-VP parts function entirely differently.

DP: your example was very situational, and not always true. Sure, if you're forced to take Nobles' +2 Actions you'd rather play a Village. But if that "other action" in your hand happens to be a Village variant or if it's a non-terminal and your deck is mostly Treasure, you'd often much rather have Nobles' Smithy effect.

So it's probably true that HV could work at $6. But in a game with both, I'm taking Nobles ahead of HV 99% of the time. If you're going for a Treasure deck, Nobles are great and HV doesn't really help (other than the 2VP without the clogging), and if you're building an Action deck you probably have some Village support anyway so $6 Villages aren't going to help you much.

I think by the time you're hitting $6, your deck is usually already taking shape so you either want an extra boost to get you to $8 (Gold), or a power card (Goons), or a transition between deck-building and greening (Harem), and/or some extra support for your deck (Nobles). You're not looking to buy Villages (obviously Border Village is the exception here and then you only want it if you have something good to pair it with or you would have bought a $5 card anyway so you may as well). Either you already have them or you're building a deck that doesn't need them.

Anyway, I'm kind of rambling but hopefully I'm making some sense.
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chwhite

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Re: How many niches for village-types are left? Can you think of any new ones?
« Reply #59 on: October 31, 2011, 10:46:24 am »
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Once again, because I love beating this drum:  Nobles is an excellent card, even for its price!  It probably doesn't deserve a Top 5 spot anymore, since I think Border Village replaced it as Honorable Mention (other spots going to KC, Goons, Grand Market, Peddler, Hoard), but it is still very strong, far better than Harem certainly.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2011, 10:49:08 am by chwhite »
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rinkworks

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Re: How many niches for village-types are left? Can you think of any new ones?
« Reply #60 on: October 31, 2011, 11:47:47 am »
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Second Jimmmmm's point about a $6 Village being priced out of usefulness.  It's hard to get a $6 early, reliably, or in quantity, so if you're building an engine with Villages, you need them to be cheaper.  That's probably the best reason for pricing it at $5.  It's easy to get sidetracked comparing power levels (as I did), but gameplay is the greater factor.
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Re: How many niches for village-types are left? Can you think of any new ones?
« Reply #61 on: November 05, 2011, 04:11:13 pm »
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Are we still giving village ideas? Becuase I have a couple.
Destroyed Village
+2 cards
+2 actions
Discard 2 cards. Only one can be a victory card.
Action, $4

Villager
+1 card
+2 actions
Look at the top and bottom cards of your deck. Discard one and put the other on top of your deck.
Action, $4

Basically an upgraded Pearl Diver that is actually worth buying.

Wealthy Village
If played as an action,
+1 card
+2 actions
--
If played as a treasure,
$2
Action-Treasure, $4

Village when you need actions, silver when you don't.
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Jack Rudd

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Re: How many niches for village-types are left? Can you think of any new ones?
« Reply #62 on: November 05, 2011, 04:45:32 pm »
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Are we still giving village ideas? Becuase I have a couple.
Destroyed Village
+2 cards
+2 actions
Discard 2 cards. Only one can be a victory card.
Action, $4

This can cause an unresolvable situation. Word it like this:

Destroyed Village
+2 cards
+2 actions
Discard an Action or a Treasure.
Discard a card.
Action, $4

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Titandrake

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Re: How many niches for village-types are left? Can you think of any new ones?
« Reply #63 on: November 05, 2011, 05:27:14 pm »
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This is Stupid.
Cost: $4
+1 Card
+1 Action
Multiply the number of actions you have by 2.
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Re: How many niches for village-types are left? Can you think of any new ones?
« Reply #64 on: November 05, 2011, 06:36:54 pm »
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This is Stupid.
Cost: $4
+1 Card
+1 Action
Multiply the number of actions you have by 2.
Now that would be a fun card to King's Court.
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Titandrake

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Re: How many niches for village-types are left? Can you think of any new ones?
« Reply #65 on: November 05, 2011, 08:14:44 pm »
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This is Stupid.
Cost: $4
+1 Card
+1 Action
Multiply the number of actions you have by 2.
Now that would be a fun card to King's Court.

Yes, if you want more actions than you know what to do with.
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Re: How many niches for village-types are left? Can you think of any new ones?
« Reply #66 on: November 05, 2011, 08:21:01 pm »
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This is Stupid.
Cost: $4
+1 Card
+1 Action
Multiply the number of actions you have by 2.
Now that would be a fun card to King's Court.

Yes, if you want more actions than you know what to do with.
Yeah, but it's clear what to do with them: Diadem. Because let's face it, this is a ridiculous and rare scenario anyway; so why not keep going?

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Re: How many niches for village-types are left? Can you think of any new ones?
« Reply #67 on: November 06, 2011, 01:26:09 am »
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Retroactively naming "Stupid Village"

KC - KC - Stupid Village - Stupid Village - Stupid Village then playing Diadem is $2^9 = $512.

Yeah that's just silly.

Edit: Forgot that because it's inside the KC, playing it doesn't take up an action. So it's actually...$1022
« Last Edit: November 06, 2011, 01:30:34 am by Titandrake »
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Jimmmmm

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Re: How many niches for village-types are left? Can you think of any new ones?
« Reply #68 on: November 06, 2011, 01:31:17 am »
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Better hope you have some buys.
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Re: How many niches for village-types are left? Can you think of any new ones?
« Reply #69 on: November 06, 2011, 01:43:08 am »
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this one is from my fan exp, without the summon mechanic

Refugee Camp
Action
Cost: 4
+2 actions
Draw until you have 5 cards in hand.

Very strong with handsize reducers, equal to a $3 village with 5 cards, and crappy with handsize increasers.
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Diving Pikachu

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Re: How many niches for village-types are left? Can you think of any new ones?
« Reply #70 on: November 06, 2011, 02:05:56 am »
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A pure Reaction (not labeled as also an Action) reverse-order village:

Pilgrim Camp $2
(Reaction)

If you draw a card during your action phase, you may reveal and discard this card. If you do, +1 Action.

***

It's missing the +1 card that would make it a closer mirror of Village, because such a card would be too often better than Village, as you could never draw it dead, but this wouldn't be a very exciting $4 village. Plus, we have too many of those already. I want another $2 village, as those inhabit much more unique design spaces. Obviously, this needs drawing power on the board to work at all, but even a single +1 card can trigger it.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2011, 02:09:46 am by Diving Pikachu »
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Fangz

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Re: How many niches for village-types are left? Can you think of any new ones?
« Reply #71 on: November 24, 2011, 08:47:09 am »
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On the subject of reverse ordering...

---
Servants' Dormitory $4 action-reaction
+2 actions

Whenever you draw this, +1 card.
---

Basically, a village that can never be drawn dead when you play a smithy or whatever. Also has interesting combo potential with warehouse, spy, etc, and a defense against deck inspection based attacks.

Or the scarily powerful version:


---
Servants' Dormitory $4P action-reaction
+2 actions

Whenever you draw this, +1 card, +$2.
---
« Last Edit: November 24, 2011, 09:03:22 am by Fangz »
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Jimmmmm

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Re: How many niches for village-types are left? Can you think of any new ones?
« Reply #72 on: November 24, 2011, 09:07:29 am »
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On the subject of reverse ordering...

---
Servants' Dormitory $4 action-reaction
+2 actions

Whenever you draw this, +1 card.
---

Is it supposed to include drawing it at the end of your turn?
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Re: How many niches for village-types are left? Can you think of any new ones?
« Reply #73 on: November 24, 2011, 10:11:41 am »
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Yes. I think that's probably simplest.
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Re: How many niches for village-types are left? Can you think of any new ones?
« Reply #74 on: November 27, 2011, 08:23:47 pm »
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Yes. I think that's probably simplest.

This card definitely needs a differently-colored back in order to work. That way, all players can witness the exact moment you put it into your hand. Otherwise there'd be no accountability built into this card. Reactions also usually have a command to "reveal" as part of their reaction mechanic, and the way you have this written, you don't even have to do that to draw the extra card. You need more precise wording.

I suggest the following:

In games using this, when you put a yellow-backed card into your hand, you may draw one card.

And then Servants' Dormitory would have yellow-colored backs. This wording would incentivize SD users to clearly but quickly show to everyone else exactly when they draw one into their hand, so that they can receive the benefit. The extra game rules used by cards such as Duchess, Young Witch, Trade Route, etc are sometimes the easiest way to implement certain ideas. Just trying to think of how a similar reaction could be written properly makes my head spin.

Of course, my solution introduces the problem of making shuffles technically not as random anymore. This was a feature for Stash, but might complicate Servants' Dormitory. Perhaps you should be given the option to space them however you'd like during a reshuffle as well?

Now, analyzing the actual play of this card: Even in boards without discard-for-benefit, the extra information and options granted by getting a large hand--before even playing your first action--is incredibly valuable.  Drawing a few of these in one turn basically turns it into a pseudo-Tactician turn. Granted, it's more the equivalent of a Tactician turn with a lot of nerfed Villages drawn, but you can use Nobles and Hunting Party to much greater effect. And I don't even have to delve into Vault, Stables, Cellar, etc, do I?

As for this card's interaction with hand-size reducing attacks... A hand swollen-up by SD's drawn during the cleanup phase might perhaps be somewhat vulnerable to such attacks, though it at least nerfs them into Margraves. I find that interesting, thought I don't know if it's good or bad.
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