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[philosophyguy]

Now that Cornucopia has been out for a while and people have had a chance to play it, it might be worth revisiting the card ranking lists from the main blog. How would you modify these lists based on Cornucopia cards?

As a reminder, the lists were:

Worst $2 Cards (low numbers are worse)
5. Pawn
4. Cellar
3. Moat
2. Herbalist
1. Pearl Diver

Best $2 Cards (low numbers are better)
5. Pawn
4. Native Village
3. Courtyard
2. Haven
1. Chapel

Worst $3
5. Village
4. Wishing Well
3. Workshop
2. Woodcutter
1. Chancellor

Best $3
5. Watchtower
4. Warehouse
3. Steward
2. Fishing Village
1. Ambassador

Worst $4
(Honorable mention: Thief)
5. Treasure Map
4. Ironworks
3. Talisman
2. Cutpurse
1. Bureacrat

Best $4
(Honorable mention: Throne Room)
5. Envoy
4. Caravan
3. Militia
2. Bishop
1. Sea Hag

Worst $5
(Honorable mention: Counting House)
5. Mine
4. Contraband
3. Explorer
2. Stash
1. Sabateur

Best $5 Non-Attack
(Honorable mention: Venture)
5. Tactician
4. Vault
3. City
2. Lab
1. Wharf

[philosophyguy]

Personally, I'd be tempted to put Menagerie on the Best $3 list, somewhere in the 3-5 range.

Horse Traders should go on the Best $4 list. It's one of the best reactions in the game and is an easy way to virtually guarantee $5 hands turns 3-4. I wouldn't put Tournament on the Best list, but I'd bet someone would and I'd be interested in hearing their argument.

Hunting Party has to displace Lab on the Best $5 list. I'd be interested if people would put Horn of Plenty on that list as well--I wouldn't because it's too situational, but it's debatable. I don't know if Jester's swinginess makes it a candidate for the Worst $5 list or just means it's a lower-middle of the pack $5.

[drg]

At the $2 level, I'd say hamlet fits in around 4th on the good list.

At the $3 level, Menagerie is a crazy good card, probably moves into about 3rd.

The good $4's would need a massive re-analyzing, as all of the ones in cornucopia are quite powerful, I don't think they would replace sea hag at #1 though, but all except farming village (which is still a really good card) would be contenders for the other spots.

Jester would probably not affect the $5 attack list, nor make it to the worst $5's.

Hunting party would be #2 on the $5 non-attacks.  Horn of plenty is interesting, and I would make it an additional honorable mention on the good list, because it is just so good when it is good, and adds a different dimension to the game, which is good.

[rattenversammlung]

I agree with most of it,
and I think that Remake is the best 4$ card in cornucopia

[painted_cow]

Best 4$ List: You really have to cut Militia and Bishop. Young Witch is also a good candidate for this slot. Horse Traders are not bad, but imo not really Top5.

Best 3$ List: Menagerie is really good, but most of the time not a good opener, turn 3-4 buy. If you say its more a overall list, not only early game then Village also deserves a slot there.

When I read the thought about Jester on the Worst 5$...This card is at least better than Rabble (honorable mention 5$ attacks).

[ackack]

At the $2 level, I'd say hamlet fits in around 4th on the good list.

Hmmm, Courtyard and Haven better than Hamlet? I don't agree. Situationally of course those things can be true, but Hamlet is such a useful little piece to almost any setup and offers huge boosts in power to several cards (Menagerie, Library, etc.)

Thoughts on 4s:

- HT is better than I thought, but still seems worse than most of those 4s already on the list.

- Young Witch is ignorable surprisingly often. I give it too little credit, but again, doesn't seem that strong to me.

- I'd pick Salvager over most of the good 4s.

[Elyv]

I think Remake might be able to squeeze its way onto the best $4 list, and I also think Fortune Teller is one of the worst $3s.

[chwhite]

A lot of the Cornucopia cards deserve to be on these lists, and if we're revisiting them then there are probably a bunch of other changes worth making.

Hamlet is definitely in the Top 5 $2 cards, in fact it's probably #2.  Besides that the list is pretty good except that Haven is overrated and Secret Chamber needs to be high up on the Worst list.  I'd almost always rather have a Herbalist or a Pearl Diver.

Menagerie is also assured a spot in the Top 5 #3 cards; it's one of three cards with a reasonable claim at the #2 spot.  The other two cards IMO are Fishing Village (which has said spot) and Masquerade (which needs to be included in any updated ranking).  Neither Village or WW really deserve to be on the Worst $3 Cards list, so there's room for the weakest card in Cornucopia, Fortune Teller, and... I dunno?  Shanty Town is usually worse than Village?  Great Hall is usually just a distraction?  Loan is pretty much the worst trasher around?  Put Silver on there, just because?  The $3s are generally pretty good, actually.

As for the $4 cards... Remake and Tournament both probably deserve to be in the Top 5, though where exactly I'm not sure.  I almost want to put them at #1 and #2, actually.  I feel they are must-buys more often than any non-Cornucopia $4, even Hag.  Remake is IMO the second-best trasher in the game, and Prizes are powerful.  Filling the rest of that list is going to be hard, though, and there are like eight plausible entries for the remaining spots.  Horse Traders, Farming Village, and Young Witch are all above average but I don't think any are Top 5 material.  YW is IMO only the right buy about half of the time, surprisingly bad for a curse-giver.  None of the Cornucopia cards should be anywhere near the Worst $4 Cards list, but that list needs a major overhaul anyway.  It was easily the worst list we've seen- Ironworks and Cutpurse are way, way better than Pirate Ship or Coppersmith or Scout, f'r instance, and Thief is easily the worst card in the game, not merely "honorable mention".

Hunting Party is #2 Best $5 Non-Attack at a minimum, I mean it's a better Lab!  If I were making that list I'd consider putting it at #2 behind Tactician, but I'd expect Wharf to stay at #1 and that's probably the right choice.  Jester is duking it out with Rabble for Honorable Mention on the Attacks list, which otherwise doesn't change (though I'd personally drop Ghost Ship a spot or two).  Horn Of Plenty is pretty good when it works, and Harvest is pretty mediocre, but neither warrant inclusion on any best/worst list.

Fairgrounds was out before the $6+ lists came out, and I agree with its non-inclusion either way.

[painted_cow]

- Young Witch is ignorable surprisingly often. I give it too little credit, but again, doesn't seem that strong to me.

- I'd pick Salvager over most of the good 4s.

Sometimes you can ignore the Young Witch, thats right. But she is better as you may think, even if it doesnt hit everytime. I had games where I bought it in the midgame, when you see, that the opponent doesnt have any bane cards, and wont get them in mid/lategame. Its the card with my highest winrate with (more than 100 games with it). I get it in about 60 % of the games, so chwhite has a good point by saying that it isnt dominant in each setup.

The point with Salvager is right though. Salvager and Mondeylender are both very good and get a spot in the Top5 too. I forgot about them in my own post :-)

[ehunt]

The yw is good, but she's no sea hag unless the bane is truly awful. Embargo comes to mind,  since, if you don't trash it, it's taking up just as much room as a curse would've.

Tournament is a gamechanger and you'll lose if you don't give it some serious thought. also, it routinely allows you to ignore colonies. What other fours can you say that about? (bishop, or monument, if theres kc, but again the list is supposed not to be situational.) it would be my #two four

Similarly, I think menagerie is certainly the second best three.

Fortune Teller may be the worst -  sometimes she's a chancellor that helps your opponent cycle instead of you.

[guided]

I don't have much to add other than to agree with what people have already said:

-Tournament is easily in the $4 top 5.
-Hamlet is really, really good. I might rank it as high as #2.
-Fortune Teller is quite bad most of the time, like, even to the point of being about as bad as a pure terminal Silver.

[WanderingWinder]

I think you guys are vastly overrating tournament and underrating FT. Also overrating Menagerie. But the existing lists have so many problems to start with.

[chwhite]

I think you guys are vastly overrating tournament and underrating FT. Also overrating Menagerie. But the existing lists have so many problems to start with.

According to Councilroom:
Fortune Teller has a Win Rate With of 0.95 and a Win Rate Without of 1.03; Menagerie is 1.03 With and 0.93 Without; Tournament is 1.03 With and an insane Win Rate Without of 0.83 (!!)  That 0.83 figure is lower than all but five cards- Colony, Mountebank, Goons, and two Prizes.  Which you only get with Tournament.  Survey says: Tournament is really really good.

If Fortune Teller cost $4 it would seriously escape notice on the Worst list- it has to be one of the worst $3s instead because the mediocre $3s are actually much better than the mediocre $4s.  I've found that the nastiest thing a Fortune Teller can do is, when played on P1's Turn 3, force the second player to discard one or both of their opening buys Rabble-style.  I am guessing this is why you like FT.  It is legitimately hurtful, but if your opening FT whiffs (and chances are it will) then it's unlikely to do much damage at all until the late game.  If there's no good way to trash Estates, then FT is sometimes alright.  But if you can trash Estates, it's usually worse than Chancellor- and that fact alone makes me quite comfortable putting it on the Worst list.

[WanderingWinder]

I don't think FT is good. I think it's pretty darn bad. Just not as bad as you think.
Also, I don't think you can take so much stock in what the populace does in general. Those stats seriously overrate tournament. It's quite strong but I don't think top 5. Probably top ten

[Elyv]

I don't think FT is good. I think it's pretty darn bad. Just not as bad as you think.

Which 5 3s do you think are worse?

[WanderingWinder]

Black Market, Woodcutter, Smugglers, Chancellor, Village. Okay, probably you can make a case for it being worse than Village, but the same is true of Wishing Well, Great Hall, and Workshop, which all fight for that 5th-worst $3 slot.

[chwhite]

Black Market, Woodcutter, Smugglers, Chancellor, Village. Okay, probably you can make a case for it being worse than Village, but the same is true of Wishing Well, Great Hall, and Workshop, which all fight for that 5th-worst $3 slot.

Hm, except for Village that's actually a quite plausible list; I had forgotten about Black Market's suckitude.  I guess I might just swap out Workshop for Village, and leave FT at Honorable Mention.  Great Hall would then be my seventh-worst, and above that there's a gap as I think Village and WW are clearly better, rubbing elbows with middleweight cards like Shanty Town and Trade Route.

[WanderingWinder]

Fair enough. Don't think I would quibble with your list. Probably my point is that FT isn't in that lowest level of 3-money suckage, but rather the second-lowest.

[guided]

Also, I don't think you can take so much stock in what the populace does in general.

OK well I personally have a 1.65 win-point rate with and 1.00 without so I'm pretty much going to stick to thinking it's a good card.

[WanderingWinder]

And I have 1.24 with, 1.33 without. Now I do get it 82% of the time, and I do think it's a good card, just not so killer.

[ARTjoMS]

IMHO

2) lighthouse and embargo belongs in best 5
3) warehouse doesn't belong in best 5
trade route belongs in worst 5
4) smithy belongs in best 5
5) hunting party replaces city in best 5 non attacks

[Tydude]

4) smithy belongs in best 5

Smithy is in the best 5. It's mentioned in the article to be combined with Envoy in that spot. I think the same should happen with Hunting Party/Lab, with Hunting Party as the main one and Lab just as the mention.

[ARTjoMS]

4) smithy belongs in best 5

Smithy is in the best 5. It's mentioned in the article to be combined with Envoy in that spot. I think the same should happen with Hunting Party/Lab, with Hunting Party as the main one and Lab just as the mention.

I meant that it really belongs in best 5 (replacing other card)

[Raine]

I think the biggest issue with tournament and people saying it is overrated is that it is not a good opener, which is how many people use it.  As an opener it is bad.  As a turn 3-6 buy it is useful if your openers can get you a quick province.

[DG]

I would say that the young witch is a very comparable card to the sea hag and is better or worse depending upon the bane card. The draw2-discard2 ability can be put to excellent use and is well suited to a curse ridden game.

I find myself very often buying hunting parties ahead of wharves so they are challenger for the #1 five cost card, let alone the #2 card.

I would add the hamlet ahead of the pawn on the best 2 cost card list.