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Author Topic: Which card is best for you?  (Read 11789 times)

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Morgrim7

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Which card is best for you?
« on: June 20, 2012, 12:05:11 am »
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Inspired be "Which card is worst for you", obviously.
My five best (especially the first three) surprise me a great deal.
Margrave
Hoard
Jester
IGG
Young Witch (Ironically, YW is one of my least favorite cards.)
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eHalcyon

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Re: Which card is best for you?
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2012, 12:11:44 am »
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Young Witch (Ironically, YW is one of my least favorite cards.)

It just makes things too easy for you.  Morgrim relishes the challenge.
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Rhombus

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Re: Which card is best for you?
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2012, 12:59:51 am »
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Duke - always up for the rush
Tactician - one of my favorite cards
Mining Village - my favorite village
Baron
Stash
Masquerade
Courtyard - looks like I know when not to buy this card (honestly hate it)
Pawn - surprising
Watchtower - terrible with this card, but when I avoid it apparently I'm great
Harem - probably buy when I'm ahead and know when to stay away
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iangoth

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Re: Which card is best for you?
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2012, 01:52:23 am »
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Here are my top 10 by winrate given avail. Feel free to let me know if my thoughts on the ranking are unwarranted or just plain stupid.

IGG -- No surprise to me. I know I play the IGG rush pretty well.
Thief -- I buy it 12% of the time, more than I expected. My winrate is probably high since it's a trap for new players.
Cache -- I buy it 22% of the time, primarily in gardens games and sometimes in BM games. No idea why my winrate is so high.
loan -- -.52 effect with but +2.78 effect without. I buy it around 22% of the time, much less than the average of 41%. I guess I know when it's a bad buy.
swindler -- I don't really like the card since it's so swingy. I have a +2.71 effect without, so I guess I'm good at determining when there's a better option.
pearl diver -- I like the card and think it's slightly underrated, but I'm surprised to see the card is evidently relevant enough to have an effect on my winrate. +2.26 effect with, maybe because the fact I buy it at all likely means I have an engine with +buys and money to spare.
haggler -- I do like the card, but I don't really have any idea why it's one of my best. I think I tend to ignore it in BM games.
council room -- I buy it 40% of the time, compared to the average of 55%. I avoid using more than one in engines unless a discard attack is available, and I prefer most other terminal draw cards.
bishop -- One of my favorite cards. I seem to do equally well when I buy it (71% of the time) and when I don't.
embassy -- A lot of people seem to underestimate BM + embassy. It's great for engines, too, since you're practically guaranteed to be able to put together the next link in the chain.
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Obi Wan Bonogi

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Re: Which card is best for you?
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2012, 02:28:48 am »
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My top 5 is a handful of my favorite cards.  All are gained 85+%

Ambassador And he's highest by a decent chunk.  I've always loved this guy and it makes me sad that so many veto players bounce him :(
Steward Love him.
Upgrade Only one I am surprised about as I feel like I probably overplay the card.
Minion Who needs gold.
Peddler Win the race!
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Robz888

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Re: Which card is best for you?
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2012, 02:38:29 am »
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Huh, my top 5 are pretty interesting. And the top 3 is just about the meanest top 3 you could imagine.

Possession -- Hm. I rarely buy this. I guess that's the point. The community gains it 45% of the time, me 22%.
Masquerade -- This was my favorite card for a long time, so I'm not surprised to see it here. I gain it 78% of games; the overall is 59%.
Torturer -- I gain this about as often as most people. Guess I'm decent at Torturer chains.
Haven -- An overrated card that I only grab 48% of the time to the community's 60%.
Alchemist -- Speaking of overrated. People get this 67% of the time!? I only get it 40% of the time.
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Obi Wan Bonogi

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Re: Which card is best for you?
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2012, 02:44:07 am »
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Haven -- An overrated card that I only grab 48% of the time to the community's 60%.

Funny how diverse these can be.  Haven comes at #9 in my list...gained 90%.
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chwhite

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Re: Which card is best for you?
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2012, 02:46:03 am »
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My top 10 by winrate given available.  A lot of these cards are ones I buy less often than most.

Adventurer - Um what?  I buy this card less than any other save Thief and Explorer, and it's not even that I'm gaining an edge by ignoring it, because my opponents ignore it 90 percent of the time too.  Adventurer's been #1 for awhile, and I can't for the life of me figure out why.
Bishop - This one makes more sense.  I love Bishop decks, I play them frequently and well, but I know it can be a trap too.
Smugglers - Like Adventurer, this is a card I find to be incredibly weak; I ignore it more than all the other $3s save Develop.  My anti-Smugglers stance is more lonely, so I'm comfortable saying this is up here because my opponents overrate it.
Walled Village - The Village I (and probably you too) buy least.  I do a good job of ignoring it, and also am enough of an engine player that I can get advantage from it when I do need it.
Scrying Pool - I like me some treasureless decks.
Ghost Ship - Often very strong, but I get more mileage out of building engines that can counter Ghost Ship, and skipping it instead.
Possession - Another card I do very well ignoring.  I buy this only 26% of the time, it's just such a trap.
Remake - My favorite trasher.  I have an insane Win Rate Without because I buy this card too much.  If I only got this 90 percent of the time rather than almost 94, it'd be higher on the list.
Menagerie - My favorite card, period.  It's just so bonkers good... usually.
Peddler - Singlemindedly gunning for the Peddler stack against an opponent who's fooling around with that horrible card, Gold, has won me more games than I can count.

#11 is that most unjustly maligned of crazy-fun power cards, Tournament.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2012, 02:55:31 am by chwhite »
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Robz888

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Re: Which card is best for you?
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2012, 02:55:52 am »
+1

#11 is that most unjustly maligned of crazy-un-fun power cards, Tournament.

Fixed that for you.  ;D
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cayvie

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Re: Which card is best for you?
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2012, 03:03:35 am »
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My top 10!

Tournament - No surprise here. I love this card, and think I play it very well. As I said in the other thread, I gain it 95.1% of the time.
Chancellor - This, on the other hand, does surprise me. I'm not sure what's up here; I gain it so infrequently (9.4%) that I don't know what it means. I don't think this is an overrated card, either.
Silk Road - Another favorite of mine. I love buying green cards way earlier than people think is reasonable.
Torturer - I gain this at exactly the same rate (65.9%) as the general populace. Perhaps I more aggressively pursue Torturer chains than others, who might try to do something clever when it's there? Don't know. I don't have particularly strong feelings about it.
Quarry - I hate this card. I gain it 29.2% of the time, half as frequently as the crowd's 60.7. Maybe that's it?
Secret Chamber - Hee hee hee! I do enjoy playing this card, though I apparently still buy it less than the average player. Click click click click click click click!
Envoy - Sure. I like big money Envoy, but apparently where my edge comes in is avoiding it; 2.09 effect without.
Fishing Village - I mean, I like it. I buy it about 90% of the time, like everyone else. I don't think of myself as a particularly strong engine player; maybe I'm good at hybrid strategies, and this is a linchpin of those.
Ironworks - See: #3 in this list.
Wharf - I buy this 90% of the time, which feels about right to me, though it's apparently significantly higher than average.

What do I learn here? I'm good when trashing isn't necessary.
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Asklepios

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Re: Which card is best for you?
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2012, 04:02:39 am »
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Going by "effect with" (i.e. number of standard deviations better than expected I perform) my top 5 are:

1) Bag of Gold: 20.23
2) Treasury: 2.52
3) Bureaucrat: 2.17
4) Monument: 2.11
5) Torturer: 2.12

Its not that I buy these cards a lot but rather that I feel comfortable with when to use them. Which for Bag of Gold, my number one, is almost never. My %+ is 3.4% for this card, compared to 17.8% in general. As a rule of thumb, unless Bag of Gold creates a guaranteed Province for me this turn (say, a card drawer and a Remodel in hand), I'll take a Duchy instead.

Likewise with Treasury, I think I see people buying it too often. To me its only worthwhile if greening is likely to occur late in a game, and there are engine components of high value and high cost. I also like it if there are means to gain rather than buy the green, such as Border Village, Ironworks, Horn of Plenty, etc. Otherwise, I tend to not rate it much.

Bureaucrat and Monument I think I know when to use, which is basically weak kingdoms where money matters, or where there's a specific benefit to them (like a game with lots of green predicted for bureaucrat (silk road, gardens rush, workable tunnels) or an opportunity to play multiple monuments per turn in a province game (say chapel, village, monument)). I probably veer more towards money than a lot of players, so I play Bureaucrat as an opener quite a lot, as a lot of kingdoms don't seem fast enough to compete against its mix of treasure generation and light attack.

Torturer I tend to play only when I am playing for a Torturer lockdown, and I almost never "splash" into this card. This card isn't really worth its cost until you play two of them in a turn.

Incidentally I think "effect with" is probably the best column to go by when judging your effectiveness with a card, as "winrate given availability" tends to be down to the strength of the cards mostly.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2012, 04:10:39 am by Asklepios »
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iangoth

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Re: Which card is best for you?
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2012, 04:25:24 am »
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Incidentally I think "effect with" is probably the best column to go by when judging your effectiveness with a card, as "winrate given availability" tends to be down to the strength of the cards mostly.

Well, your opponent has equal access to to those cards (black market cards and tournament prizes excepted), so your winrate given availability shouldn't have a lot to do with the card's strength over large sample sizes. Notice no one has listed witch or mountebank in their top ten.
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RisingJaguar

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Re: Which card is best for you?
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2012, 12:56:47 pm »
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I love using councilroom stats!  My top 5 starting with my best card: http://councilroom.com/popular_buys?player=RisingJaguar

Inn - 68% gain - Most of the effectiveness is when I'm building engine, which I just love.  Glad to see this here
Hunting Party - 92% gain - I'm not surprised here again.  I really know when not to buy it too! I challenge someone to my 2.99 effect without.
Council Room - 60% gain - Not really sure what I know more than others. 
Smugglers - 60% gain - Really useful in most engines, need to gather those pieces!
Horn of plenty - 69% gain***** - I think again it is really useful to gain pieces.  28% overall gain rate tells me people focus this as a "mega-turn special".  Clearly I do well with it, but am I purchasing it too much?  I do have a 2.67 effect with and normally use it to gain pieces if there are engine pieces as low as $3 or $2 that I need an abundance of.  I would like to hear other people's thoughts.

I was going to do 10 but then got tired.  I am glad to see that my best cards are ones that I play more than the average instead of the other way around. 
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AJD

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Re: Which card is best for you?
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2012, 02:10:52 pm »
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My five best winrates given availability:

Ill-Gotten Gains. I think a lot of my opponents don't realize the power of the IGG rush; I gain IGG in 80% of gains whereas the overall percentage is 50%.
Highway. I gain this slightly less than the overall average; I often play opponents who rush these even when it's not likely to be more than a Peddler, but I love putting together Highway/Market engines and am pretty good at that.
Cache. Not sure why this one's up. I gain it less often than average; but "not buying Cache very much" doesn't seem like that arcane a skill.
Possession. Oddly, my gain frequency with this is equal to the average. I guess I don't go for it when it's not useful, whereas other players don't go for it when they can't manage to scrape together $6 and a potion in the same hand?
Stables. Again, no particular insight into why this is here. My effect without is higher than my effect with, but my gain rate is higher than average.
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werothegreat

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Re: Which card is best for you?
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2012, 02:25:57 pm »
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Was looking at the wrong column.  Silly me.

My top five are: Island, Spice Merchant, Menagerie, Governor, Followers.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2012, 02:27:58 pm by werothegreat »
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jsh357

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Re: Which card is best for you?
« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2012, 02:37:47 pm »
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1. Tunnel - Not surprised.  I feel like I have a good handle on this card, eg when to buy it and when not to.  It's also my favorite card, nice.
2. Witch
3. Lighthouse
4. Alchemist - Pretty much because I never buy it without a plan.
5. Apprentice
6. Library - See Alchemist
7. University - See Alchemist
8. Thief - See Alchemist
9. Black Market - See Alchemist
10. Haven
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popsofctown

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Re: Which card is best for you?
« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2012, 02:54:41 pm »
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Mine blew my mind when I checked recently.  There were two outliers of best win rate given available.

Haggler.  Ok, it's an amusing card and not my favorite I guess apparently I'm ignoring it and picking it up correctly.  And maybe it makes some impact.

Spy??  Whaaaaaaat??
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Wingnut

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Re: Which card is best for you?
« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2012, 03:18:44 pm »
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My top 10

Jack of All Trades - 82.4% gain - And to think I hate this card (or at least DoubleJack). Still I find it helpful early even though I pretty much never play DoubleJack and evidently I know how to transition from JoaT to other things (an underrated skill I believe as many of my wins using JoaT have been because of suboptimal play from my opponents).
Noble Brigand - 62.5% gain - I play lots of BM type strategies. And I also usually automatch against pretty much anyone meaning lots of wins against low level players and lots of time in seat 2 where this card really helps.
Highway - 61.3% gain - Often a huge trap, especially with no +buy. Even when it is a trap I will often grab an early one as many people don't see its a trap and then start racing them while I buy everything else I need unencumbered.
Familiar - 77.3% gain - Based on this I am the jerk who never pulls 2P, ever with this card. Actually it is because I almost never open Silver/Potion to get to it. My open is generally Potion/anything, anything at all that gives me a chance to get 3P over Silver whether that be Courtyard, Warehouse or an attack (Fortune Teller is amazing here often discarding the potion or often discarding the Familiar after it's in the deck).
Menagerie - 79.4% gain - 
Duchess - 66.3% gain - I tend to play BM games and play them well. Usually one Duchess from a Duchy in the greening stage is useful
Ambassador - 91.2% gain - That said I can and will build an engine when necessary and Amb is my favorite card to do that with no question.
Nomad Camp - 56.8% gain - I often use this to try to link to a $5 card in the open (the grand 4/5 opening) especially when there is no other extra buy or there are useful $2 cards to split $4 between.
Moat - 24.3% gain - Whatever. I usually veto this now (and Lighthouse too) just because so many attacks get vetoed.
Fishing Village - 94.8% gain - Evidently I know what I am doing with this card.
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Re: Which card is best for you?
« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2012, 03:25:44 pm »
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By win rate given available, top is Counting House: this must be due to avoiding in 90% of the time, as my win rate with is 0.87 ± 0.40.

Wait, hold the press!  Council Room appears to have just updated, and my top card is now Feast.

But then I refresh again, and the situation is reversed once more!

I think the most interesting thing I learnt from this exercise is that of my top 5—Counting House, Feast, Develop, Courtyard and Wishing Well—the top two and the bottom two have exactly the same win rate and error bars.
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Cadence20

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Re: Which card is best for you?
« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2012, 03:39:44 pm »
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5 best "Effect With"

1. Spy - 3.26
2. Apocethary - 3.10
3. Talisman - 3.04
4. Menagerie - 2.96
5. Peddler - 2.60
6. Bank - 2.33
7. Worker's Village - 2.16
8. Laboratory - 2.12
9. Mine - 2.01
10. Chancellor - 1.97

I'm super surprised about Spy since I try to avoid it, I guess I'm pretty good at figuring out when Spy is better than Silver. Apocethary is no surprise to me, I always felt like I'm a lot stronger in apocethary games than most. Talisman doesn't surprise me either as I feel very strong with it, even though it seems like a weak card often, I've used it to beat some top level players (who chose other strategies). Surprised peddler is so high since I hate playing peddler games.

A lot of cantrips, which surprises me because I prefer playing BM games. I guess the reason the non-BM cards are so high is because if there is such a dominating non-BM strategy out there, I'll use it, and potentially get ahead.

Chancellor surprises me, I guess maybe cause of Chancellor/Stash? Also I often get Chancellor in Swindler games, which I also feel comfortable with. Not sure what else.
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Morgrim7

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Re: Which card is best for you?
« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2012, 05:14:35 pm »
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Going by effect with...
1) Chancellor??? But I HATE that card. (Probably highest because I have only bought it in Chancellor/Stash.)
2) Watchtower. Odd, is this a list of cards I dislike?
3) Margrave. Yes, this is a list of cards I dislike.
4) Hoard. A card I like for a change. Doesn't it feel great when you buy a Province...and gain 3 Golds?
5) Farmland. Enjoy this card as well.
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chwhite

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Re: Which card is best for you?
« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2012, 05:26:20 pm »
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I'd be willing to bet that for many people, their best "Effect With" cards are those they don't play very often and only pick up when they're sure it's a winning strategy.

This is not exactly the case for me, however:
1) Bishop (2.72) - A little surprising this is #1, but not surprising at all it's near the top.
2) Secret Chamber (2.65) - Back when I started playing on Isotropic, I thought SC was the most useless card in the game and I assiduously avoided it.  Then I realized it sometimes had good combo potential, and started picking it up for that.  I buy it relatively frequently now (30 percent is less than the Isotropic average, but a lot more than it used to be for me), but never without a good reason.
3) Bridge (2.35) - Bridge has a horrible win rate on Isotropic overall, because it often gets over-bought without a good plan, much like Highway and Black Market.  But it's really great if you know how to make the sorts of engines it's useful in.
4) Transmute (2.20) - There's a reason I wrote that Transmute article. :P
5) Potion (2.19) - I do well with Alchemy in general, apparently.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2012, 09:59:41 pm by chwhite »
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ehunt

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Re: Which card is best for you?
« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2012, 05:40:54 pm »
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Best win % given availability - JoaT - I have a good effect without (2.93) and an OK effect with (.77). Afterwards: trader, embassy (which I almost always veto!), vineyard, remake.

Best effect with - Vineyard (3.76). I wrote an article on them a long time ago. I'm actually terrified when Vineyards are on the board against great players, because I don't really understand the Vineyards mirror match, but when it's on the board against less experienced players, it's just an easy win. So many people underestimate this card. Afterwards: workshop, peddler, trader, curse.
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Re: Which card is best for you?
« Reply #23 on: June 20, 2012, 08:32:02 pm »
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I'd be willing to bet that for many people, their best "Effect With" cards are those they don't play very often and only pick up when they're sure it's a winning strategy.

This is not exactly the case for me, however:
1) Bishop (2.72) - A little surprising this is #1, but not surprising at all it's near the top.
2) Secret Chamber (2.65) - Back when I started playing on Isotropic, I thought SC was the most useless card in the game and I assiduously avoided it.  Then I realized it sometimes had good combo potential, and started picking it up for that.  I buy it relatively frequently now (30 percent is less than the Isotropic average, but a lot more than it used to be for me), but never without a good reason.
3) Bridge (2.35) - Bridge has a horrible win rate on Isotropic overall, because it often gets over-bought without a good plan, much like Highway and Black Market.  But it's really great if you know how to make the sorts of engines its useful in.
4) Transmute (2.20) - There's a reason I wrote that Transmute article. :P
5) Potion (2.19) - I do well with Alchemy in general, apparently.
Just wanted to hop in to say I have an even better effect with transmute :)

chwhite

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Re: Which card is best for you?
« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2012, 08:36:19 pm »
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Just wanted to hop in to say I have an even better effect with transmute :)

True!  But I buy it more than twice as often.
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