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Author Topic: [pre-discussion] DominionStrategy qualifiers for US National Championships  (Read 22609 times)

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O

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Re: DominionStrategy qualifiers for US National Championships
« Reply #125 on: June 22, 2012, 02:42:03 am »
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Equally hard question: Name a professional/olympic sport that isn't golf and has 3+ teams competing in the same game/match.

Archery?
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metzgerism

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Re: DominionStrategy qualifiers for US National Championships
« Reply #126 on: June 22, 2012, 03:00:05 am »
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The real argument now is whether winner-take-all or a points-based system is better for the heats.  And to those who support the former--metzgerism and rrenaud chief among them, I think--I have a simple question:

Name a sport, professional or Olympic, in which more than two players compete in each round, but only one player from each match in each round advances.

I can't find one, but maybe I'm wrong.  Golf is the only commonly-followed sport* I can think of that are not one-on-one games, and it uses a point system.  Swimming and track sports use heats from which multiple athletes advance from each race.

*NASCAR was mentioned, but, sorry, just no.
I can't think of any. There are few confrontational sports (if any) that are not 1v1, and therefore a heat-based system is more preferable. There have been competitions in the past where a single qualifier is returned from a grouping.

I'm also not necessarily advocating that single qualifier thing, so I'm not sure where this discussion is heading...
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metzgerism

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Re: DominionStrategy qualifiers for US National Championships
« Reply #127 on: June 22, 2012, 03:04:28 am »
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Equally hard question: Name a professional/olympic sport that isn't golf and has 3+ teams competing in the same game/match.

Archery?
Races, like cycling and motorsports. Those usually don't have a winner-take-all scenario for each individual race.
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theory

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Re: DominionStrategy qualifiers for US National Championships
« Reply #128 on: June 22, 2012, 07:50:57 am »
+1

This is completely overblown, this points-vs-winners thing.

Let's be realistic.  With any of the points systems we're considering, (5-3-2-1), those with 4 wins will always beat those with 3 wins will always beat those with 2 wins.  So this is a completely unnecessary distinction at this point.
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theory

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Re: DominionStrategy qualifiers for US National Championships
« Reply #129 on: June 22, 2012, 07:53:44 am »
+1

I am more interested in asking -- how long is the slowest 4p match likely to take?  Is 30min a reasonable upper limit?  I think it is, but all the 4p games I've played in have me in them and are therefore subject to sampling bias.
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Captain_Frisk

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Re: DominionStrategy qualifiers for US National Championships
« Reply #130 on: June 22, 2012, 08:03:04 am »
+1

I am more interested in asking -- how long is the slowest 4p match likely to take?  Is 30min a reasonable upper limit?  I think it is, but all the 4p games I've played in have me in them and are therefore subject to sampling bias.

I bet the longest will be an hour.

All you need is kc, pool, young witch, secret chamber bane, minion.  I've played 30 min 2p matches before.   
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I support funsockets.... taking as much time as they need to get it right.

WanderingWinder

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Re: DominionStrategy qualifiers for US National Championships
« Reply #131 on: June 22, 2012, 09:04:43 am »
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If you don't want to be abrasive, try not cursing, not telling people that their OPINIONS are WRONG in all caps (there's a big difference between 'I disagree' and 'You're WRONG'), not trying to argue via reductio ad absurdum, etc. People don't like this.
I put words in caps or italics that I mean to stress. I don't believe I said anyone was flat out wrong, anywhere, especially not in caps...?
Addressing this privately, as flame wars are baddddd, mmkay?

Quote
This (the analogy to 2p as you make it) is an arbitrary way of looking at it. I can just as easily make the argument that 2p dominion is all about not getting last, and why should that change by adding another player.
But also, why should 2p, 3p, and 4p be anything like the same game? They're totally different in almost every respect.
How is it arbitrary? I didn't pick "2 player" out of a hat - over 99% of my games are played 2-player, and I'm sure the ratio is similar for most people on this board, including you.

That said, you're absolutely right that they are not the same game (and shouldn't be held to the same standard).
You're missing my point. I'm not saying using 2p is arbitrary. I'm saying that viewing 2p as 'the whole point is to win' is arbitrary. You can just as easily view it as 'the whole point is not to lose'. Or 'the whole point is to not get last' (which is the most supported by the rulebook, IMO, ('...rejoice in their shared victory...')). Or 'the whole point is to maximize your position'. Which is what the point system advocates, basically. You continue to privilege your own position, without considering the other side.

Quote
I seriously doubt you have the most experience with tournaments of anyone on this forum. Be shocked. You've barely been here, so I wouldn't expect you to know, but...
I've run a plurality of the total online english-language Dominion tournaments/competitions. There have been 33 that I know of. I have operated 13 and was founder of the league that ran another 12. All of those came after years of running other competitions on other boards for other games.

You don't know me very well, but this is my bread & butter.
I don't know you very well, because you only just showed up here! And now you're trying to act like THE authority. Which is a frustrating thing. It's your 'bread-and-butter'? You do this for a living? Certainly not the dominion thing. 15 tournaments online over the past several years is pretty unimpressive, considering the size of things. Trust me, I know many people who have WAY more organizing experience than this (not with Dominion itself, but more established competitive games), including one or two who are on the site (not that they've posted in this thread). I don't know what their positions here would be, because they don't deal with multiplayer messes really. But suffice it to say, unless you've really buried the lead in those 'years of running competitions'. Finally, if you're counting BGGDL as 25 separate things, a) don't take credit for the 12 you didn't run, but more important, b) there have been WAY more than 33.

WanderingWinder

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Re: DominionStrategy qualifiers for US National Championships
« Reply #132 on: June 22, 2012, 09:05:20 am »
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This is completely overblown, this points-vs-winners thing.

Let's be realistic.  With any of the points systems we're considering, (5-3-2-1), those with 4 wins will always beat those with 3 wins will always beat those with 2 wins.  So this is a completely unnecessary distinction at this point.
I think you're underestimating how big an effect this has on how multiplayer is played.

WanderingWinder

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Re: DominionStrategy qualifiers for US National Championships
« Reply #133 on: June 22, 2012, 09:07:24 am »
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I am more interested in asking -- how long is the slowest 4p match likely to take?  Is 30min a reasonable upper limit?  I think it is, but all the 4p games I've played in have me in them and are therefore subject to sampling bias.

I bet the longest will be an hour.

All you need is kc, pool, young witch, secret chamber bane, minion.  I've played 30 min 2p matches before.   
I would say that 90+% of games will be done in 30 minutes or less. I would guess that of the remaining 10%, 90% of those will be done within 15 minutes after. Then you get that terrible game where 4 people have reactions and everyone has attacks, and people step away from their computer and.... ick. But I don't think 30 minutes is a bad rule of thumb for round time, even with attacks.

rrenaud

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Re: DominionStrategy qualifiers for US National Championships
« Reply #134 on: June 22, 2012, 10:09:52 am »
+3

I am more interested in asking -- how long is the slowest 4p match likely to take?  Is 30min a reasonable upper limit?  I think it is, but all the 4p games I've played in have me in them and are therefore subject to sampling bias.

We can fix a set apriori (and not tell anyone until the tournament starts), which will get rid of some variance in the game length. 
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WanderingWinder

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Re: DominionStrategy qualifiers for US National Championships
« Reply #135 on: June 22, 2012, 11:18:48 am »
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Fixed sets is something to bring up, because I'm pretty sure that's how it will be at nationals as well.

metzgerism

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Re: DominionStrategy qualifiers for US National Championships
« Reply #136 on: June 22, 2012, 01:15:30 pm »
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Fixed sets is something to bring up, because I'm pretty sure that's how it will be at nationals as well.
Unfortunately, this is true. A lot of tournaments have fixed sets for all games in a round - as long as we have distinctly segregated rounds, we might want to have players get the same array of kingdom cards throughout the tournament.

Not that I advocate for it, but it's probably how the nationals are going to be.

This is completely overblown, this points-vs-winners thing.

Let's be realistic.  With any of the points systems we're considering, (5-3-2-1), those with 4 wins will always beat those with 3 wins will always beat those with 2 wins.  So this is a completely unnecessary distinction at this point.
If that is the case, where more wins invariably equals a higher ranking, then I'm not worried about it at all - furthermore, that means a traditional point system would be merely cosmetic.

I am more interested in asking -- how long is the slowest 4p match likely to take?  Is 30min a reasonable upper limit?  I think it is, but all the 4p games I've played in have me in them and are therefore subject to sampling bias.

I bet the longest will be an hour.

All you need is kc, pool, young witch, secret chamber bane, minion.  I've played 30 min 2p matches before.   
I second this.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2012, 03:30:02 pm by metzgerism »
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theory

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Re: DominionStrategy qualifiers for US National Championships
« Reply #137 on: June 22, 2012, 05:29:34 pm »
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A question completely irrelevant to the above conversation: can minors sign up?  ;)

Yes.  If you win you must be accompanied by a parent who will not have their expenses paid for.
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