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Author Topic: [pre-discussion] DominionStrategy qualifiers for US National Championships  (Read 22346 times)

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theory

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Re: DominionStrategy qualifiers for US National Championships
« Reply #50 on: June 20, 2012, 09:49:31 am »
0

I do not think it is true in real life that 2P is easier than 3P.

Keep in mind that Nationals/Worlds are actually 4P.  I lobbied to have our tournament as 3P, solely for organizational convenience, but I can be persuaded to alter it to 4P if people think that is better for a qualifier.  Running 2P IRL requires twice as many sets, twice as much space, and twice as many matches.

I seriously thought about sponsoring an IRL 2P Dominion tournament, but if you try to work out the logistics of it just for a couple minutes you will rapidly discover how brutal it is.  The easiest way to run an in-person 2P tournament is to hand everyone a laptop and tell them to sign onto Isotropic.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: DominionStrategy qualifiers for US National Championships
« Reply #51 on: June 20, 2012, 10:22:38 am »
+1

I think 3p is a much better format for dominion, generally, than 4p. The seating, the luck, the slogs, the provinces-per-player, all point to 3p generally being nicer for me.
Having said that, I would lobby for 4p if nationals and worlds are 4p. I think it makes sense for the conditions to be the same in qualifying as the later event. I'm not sure that, given that we need to probably have everything on a day (or a few days) and not the 'find a time with your opponent that works' that we're more used to, it's actually logistically easier to do 3p than 4p. At least significantly so. Of course, you're the one organizing the logistics, not me :P. And I do think that 4p are significantly faster per player than the others, because 3p endings move up a lot, and there are fewer provinces per player.

zxcvbn2

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Re: DominionStrategy qualifiers for US National Championships
« Reply #52 on: June 20, 2012, 11:34:49 am »
+2

I'd basically like to agree with what Wandering Winder said, especially that 3 player and 4 player in the type of setting we're looking at are no more difficult logistically.

Also, I slightly prefer Kirian's format to all the others, though I think it would take the most work from an organizer's standpoint, and I would prefer the first round of the knockout round would be longer (Really I don't see the point in playing different size matches in each round of the knockout phase at all).That's basically all I have to add.
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zxcvbn2

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Re: DominionStrategy qualifiers for US National Championships
« Reply #53 on: June 20, 2012, 01:00:21 pm »
+2

Also, if you do decide to use Kirian's format (not saying you should, but it's the most "liked " at this point so I used it), I set up a blank template you could potentially use. It's not as convenient as an online generator like challonge (which, if anyone knows of one that will do a swiss for 3-player matches, please let me/us know) and will require a lot more calculation on the part of whoever runs it (which I would love to help if that's needed or wanted).

Anyway, this is what I've got: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ah6dTyQTfYBBdDZMc1BVam9BN2hkWG1VZ0VwRFZkOWc

Feel free to use and edit this if that's the format you decide to go with.
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yuma

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Re: DominionStrategy qualifiers for US National Championships
« Reply #54 on: June 20, 2012, 01:36:47 pm »
0

I don't think anyone has mentioned this, but Kirian do you think we should postpone IsoDom 5 during this tournament? I know we are racing against an invisible clock with Isotropic going down at some point, but we don't have a strict timeline to compete against. What do you think and what do others competing in IsoDom 5 think?
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Kirian

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Re: DominionStrategy qualifiers for US National Championships
« Reply #55 on: June 20, 2012, 02:20:18 pm »
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I think 3p is a much better format for dominion, generally, than 4p. The seating, the luck, the slogs, the provinces-per-player, all point to 3p generally being nicer for me.
Having said that, I would lobby for 4p if nationals and worlds are 4p. I think it makes sense for the conditions to be the same in qualifying as the later event. I'm not sure that, given that we need to probably have everything on a day (or a few days) and not the 'find a time with your opponent that works' that we're more used to, it's actually logistically easier to do 3p than 4p. At least significantly so. Of course, you're the one organizing the logistics, not me :P. And I do think that 4p are significantly faster per player than the others, because 3p endings move up a lot, and there are fewer provinces per player.

I'll agree with WW here that if nationals are 4P, the logistics for 4P vs. 3P on Iso shouldn't be different at all, and 4P would be matched with the nationals.

Yuma, I suspect a postponement will definitely be in order.
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theory

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Re: DominionStrategy qualifiers for US National Championships
« Reply #56 on: June 21, 2012, 12:22:53 pm »
0

Thank you all for your discussion.  It was extremely helpful.  Unfortunately, we don't think we can run a swiss-style system, or heats in the preliminary qualifiers.  Instead, what we'll do is this:

We will run a 4-player qualifying tournament.  We will have four Qualifying Days:

Sunday, June 24
Tuesday, June 26
Thursday, June 28
Saturday, June 30

Each day, we will run a single-elimination knockout tournament ("Knockout Qualifier").  Each Knockout Qualifier will produce 4 players that advance.  The final 16 "semifinalists" will duke it out amongst themselves into 4 finalists, and then to 1 champion.  The Semifinals/Finals would be done sometime between June 30 and July 2, the final deadline to have a winner.

For each day, we will have registration the day before.  This is intended to minimize the risk of a no-show.  You may register for as many Knockout Qualifiers as you wish, but of course you can only advance once into the semifinals.

I'll prepare a front page post soon.  If you have any other feedback, now is the time to provide it.
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theory

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Re: DominionStrategy qualifiers for US National Championships
« Reply #57 on: June 21, 2012, 12:28:16 pm »
+1

The most contentious part about this -- and the part I'm most willing to change -- is how the Knockout Qualifiers are structured.  Single-elim 4p knockout sucks.  Is it that much better if we have pre-arranged heats, based on the registrant list, and draw our top 4 from whoever has the most win points for the day?

What I'm not flexible on (and we will definitely have) is pre-registration and static brackets. 
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zxcvbn2

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Re: DominionStrategy qualifiers for US National Championships
« Reply #58 on: June 21, 2012, 01:05:59 pm »
+1

Quote
The final 16 "semifinalists" will duke it out amongst themselves into 4 finalists, and then to 1 champion.  The Semifinals/Finals would be done sometime between June 30 and July 2, the final deadline to have a winner.

Will the semifinals and finals also be single elimination or will they be best-of-X? I know it's difficult scheduling those matches in such a short amount of time, but I'd love to see first to two wins, at least, or maybe most points (3-2-1-0) through three matches if we could.

I'll also put my hat in the ring for pre-arranged heats.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: DominionStrategy qualifiers for US National Championships
« Reply #59 on: June 21, 2012, 01:08:09 pm »
0

The most contentious part about this -- and the part I'm most willing to change -- is how the Knockout Qualifiers are structured.  Single-elim 4p knockout sucks.  Is it that much better if we have pre-arranged heats, based on the registrant list, and draw our top 4 from whoever has the most win points for the day?

What I'm not flexible on (and we will definitely have) is pre-registration and static brackets. 
It seems to me that the biggest limiting factor will be that you only have time for X games per player, and so to maximize the number of games each player has, yes, pre-arranged heats are that much better. i.e. if we have time for 5 rounds of knockout, it's better for each person to play 5 heats than for one non-first to totally knock you out. I suppose it's a little more work to arrange, because it's more games. But competitively, yes, it's THAT much better.

ednever

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Re: DominionStrategy qualifiers for US National Championships
« Reply #60 on: June 21, 2012, 01:35:33 pm »
0

A compromise (between "fairness" and "expedited-ness") could be:

Each qualifying day players are put into groups of four (randomly? Seeded based on isotropic rank?)

That group of four plays xx games (4? 8? 12?). The winner by points of those games advances. (And lots of ways to determine points... 1-0-0-0, 2-1-0-0, 3-2-1-0, 4-2-1-0, 10-5-1-0, etc... Is there a way they are doing it at Nationals?)

You would only need to play (daily entrants)/4 rounds on a qualifying day. I doubt there will be more than 64 entrants on any given day - so three rounds. At 4 games/round, that's a max of 12 games.


Question:
What times are you planning to do it Theory? During the day or evenings? (Pacific vs Eastern would be good to understand too)

Ed
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theory

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Re: DominionStrategy qualifiers for US National Championships
« Reply #61 on: June 21, 2012, 01:39:32 pm »
0

Let's suppose the format alters to this:

On each day, we take the X registrants.  Divide them into X/4 groups: Group 1, Group 2, Group 3, etc.

Each group plays 4 games against itself, rearranging their seat order each time.

Award 4 points for win, 3 for second, etc.

Total up the score.  From that day's results, pick the top 4 people.

Statistically, is that enough to meaningfully take the top 4 people?  (Keeping in mind that if you are unlucky you can qualify on another day.)  Or do we need a Stage 2 / Stage 3, as Ed suggests?
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RisingJaguar

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Re: DominionStrategy qualifiers for US National Championships
« Reply #62 on: June 21, 2012, 01:48:31 pm »
+1

Each group plays 4 games against itself, rearranging their seat order each time.
One thing I remember from Isodom Semifinals, I have no idea how to the seating works for 4P aside from Winner = Last.  Thus it would be hard to get that perfectly balanced (unless I'm missing something). 
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ednever

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Re: DominionStrategy qualifiers for US National Championships
« Reply #63 on: June 21, 2012, 01:58:12 pm »
0

Theory- Not a bad idea.

Here are the two key challenges to that model I can think of:
(1) If two strong players are in the same group, not only is it harder to qualify (because if you are one of those guys you are playing someone else good), but it likely means NEITHER of them qualify - as they both lower each other's point totals

(2) If you come in fourth your first game chances are you will not qualify (depending on the numbers). At that point you are just a spoiler trying to stop the top person you are playing against from advancing. There may even be drop outs (or more likely just weak playing causing more randomness)

-=-=-=-
I like the idea of the winner of each 'heat' advancing - especially in a comparison setting like Dominion (if it was something like track they often take the top in each heat + the best times, and there people running next to you are a lot less important)

I think what you are trying to do is reduce the need for people to "wait" for a second heat (because with 4 advancing from each qualifying day that means you only need two rounds for up to 64 players)

What if, if there are more than 16 registered, the top 16 playoff the next day?

So:
Sun w/top 16 play on Monday
Tue w/top 16 play on Wed
Thr w/top 16 play on Fri
Sat w/top 16 play on Sun

?

Too much work? It involves double the commitment per round (if you win), but with four options people should be able to do it?

Ed
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WanderingWinder

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Re: DominionStrategy qualifiers for US National Championships
« Reply #64 on: June 21, 2012, 02:24:45 pm »
+3

I would think that what you would want to do is not lock the pods in. So what you do is label everyone A1, B1, C1, D1, A2, B2, C2, D2, A3, B3, etc. Then in the first round, A1 plays against B1 C1 and D1; second round, no matter the results of the first, A1 plays against B2 C3 and D4, B1 plays against C2 D3 and A4. Third round A1 plays against B3 C5 and D7 (wrap around when necessary). There might be some issues with numbers not dividing evenly, but I think you get my idea. That way, you're not locked into opponents and necessarily competing directly with them, but you also get mucho games.

theory

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Re: DominionStrategy qualifiers for US National Championships
« Reply #65 on: June 21, 2012, 03:07:28 pm »
0

Each group plays 4 games against itself, rearranging their seat order each time.
One thing I remember from Isodom Semifinals, I have no idea how to the seating works for 4P aside from Winner = Last.  Thus it would be hard to get that perfectly balanced (unless I'm missing something). 
The only thing you are missing is that dougz is a very nice human being who is gracious enough to help you when technical challenges arise.  (I spoke to him about this issue earlier today and he has a solution ready for us.)
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theory

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Re: DominionStrategy qualifiers for US National Championships
« Reply #66 on: June 21, 2012, 03:07:59 pm »
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I would think that what you would want to do is not lock the pods in. So what you do is label everyone A1, B1, C1, D1, A2, B2, C2, D2, A3, B3, etc. Then in the first round, A1 plays against B1 C1 and D1; second round, no matter the results of the first, A1 plays against B2 C3 and D4, B1 plays against C2 D3 and A4. Third round A1 plays against B3 C5 and D7 (wrap around when necessary). There might be some issues with numbers not dividing evenly, but I think you get my idea. That way, you're not locked into opponents and necessarily competing directly with them, but you also get mucho games.

One issue with that is people waiting around for other people's games to finish.  But I understand your point.
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ednever

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Re: DominionStrategy qualifiers for US National Championships
« Reply #67 on: June 21, 2012, 03:08:43 pm »
0

Hard part about shifting groups every game is MUCH harder coordination.

With one group they can sit down and play x games in a row one after another.

If they switched groups after each game play would proceed at the speed of the slowest game PLUS coordination time between games.

If everyone played x games in a single group there would be a lot more games per unit time.

I'll bet version one would he much faster to play than version two:

Version 1
Play 4 games with one group. Top player moves on. Plays 4 games with second group

Version 2
Play 5 games with different assortment of 3 players.

Ed
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Captain_Frisk

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Re: DominionStrategy qualifiers for US National Championships
« Reply #68 on: June 21, 2012, 03:10:51 pm »
+1

I would think that what you would want to do is not lock the pods in. So what you do is label everyone A1, B1, C1, D1, A2, B2, C2, D2, A3, B3, etc. Then in the first round, A1 plays against B1 C1 and D1; second round, no matter the results of the first, A1 plays against B2 C3 and D4, B1 plays against C2 D3 and A4. Third round A1 plays against B3 C5 and D7 (wrap around when necessary). There might be some issues with numbers not dividing evenly, but I think you get my idea. That way, you're not locked into opponents and necessarily competing directly with them, but you also get mucho games.

One issue with that is people waiting around for other people's games to finish.  But I understand your point.

You have the same problem with a real life tournament... we can all hang out in the lobby and gloat, or read Mafia IV in another window, or kick back and have an afternoon beer.
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jsh357

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Re: DominionStrategy qualifiers for US National Championships
« Reply #69 on: June 21, 2012, 03:12:09 pm »
0

Can't make this sadly; it has to be the one week I'm traveling!  Ah well, even if I qualified I'm not sure I could afford to go to the finals.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: DominionStrategy qualifiers for US National Championships
« Reply #70 on: June 21, 2012, 03:14:11 pm »
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The other big thing that is just looming is the seating thing. Which, are we going to do something about it, do we want to, what will we do, how do we do it, etc. etc.? It's not clear to me, though I'm not sure, given how isotropic is, that there's a whole lot we CAN do.

RisingJaguar

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Re: DominionStrategy qualifiers for US National Championships
« Reply #71 on: June 21, 2012, 03:25:16 pm »
+1

The other big thing that is just looming is the seating thing. Which, are we going to do something about it, do we want to, what will we do, how do we do it, etc. etc.? It's not clear to me, though I'm not sure, given how isotropic is, that there's a whole lot we CAN do.

Each group plays 4 games against itself, rearranging their seat order each time.
One thing I remember from Isodom Semifinals, I have no idea how to the seating works for 4P aside from Winner = Last.  Thus it would be hard to get that perfectly balanced (unless I'm missing something). 
The only thing you are missing is that dougz is a very nice human being who is gracious enough to help you when technical challenges arise.  (I spoke to him about this issue earlier today and he has a solution ready for us.)
At least I'm not the only one who forget people can be nice.  :)
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WanderingWinder

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Re: DominionStrategy qualifiers for US National Championships
« Reply #72 on: June 21, 2012, 03:27:48 pm »
0

The other big thing that is just looming is the seating thing. Which, are we going to do something about it, do we want to, what will we do, how do we do it, etc. etc.? It's not clear to me, though I'm not sure, given how isotropic is, that there's a whole lot we CAN do.

Each group plays 4 games against itself, rearranging their seat order each time.
One thing I remember from Isodom Semifinals, I have no idea how to the seating works for 4P aside from Winner = Last.  Thus it would be hard to get that perfectly balanced (unless I'm missing something). 
The only thing you are missing is that dougz is a very nice human being who is gracious enough to help you when technical challenges arise.  (I spoke to him about this issue earlier today and he has a solution ready for us.)
At least I'm not the only one who forget people can be nice.  :)
Now how did I miss that? :)

metzgerism

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Re: DominionStrategy qualifiers for US National Championships
« Reply #73 on: June 21, 2012, 03:56:02 pm »
+1

If you need this to go fast, I think it's gotta be a single or double elimination.

Theory...seriously, just open signups and I'll handle the format.  ;)

EDIT: Is a 243-player double-elimination tournament going to be too large? Championships were 256...
« Last Edit: June 21, 2012, 03:58:31 pm by metzgerism »
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zxcvbn2

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Re: DominionStrategy qualifiers for US National Championships
« Reply #74 on: June 21, 2012, 04:04:33 pm »
0

Another pretty obvious thing is that they won't all be 4 player to start, correct? That is, if we get 61 people, we'll have 13 four-player games and 3 three-player games. And if so, how do we score these games? If not, are we kicking people out to meet a multiple of four? Or how is that going to work?
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