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### AuthorTopic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2012 Ed.2: Introduction and meta-discussion  (Read 22176 times)

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#### DStu

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##### Re: THE Dominion Card List(s) 2.0
« Reply #50 on: June 27, 2012, 04:14:40 am »
+1

Why don't you play isotropic?

Because they ask for Google ID instead of having their own accounts.  I'm probably just being paranoid, but in accordance with the internet version of Pascal's Wager, I don't take the risk that I'm not.

But you registered on a forum running on a server from someone working at google. So assuming Pascal's infinite risk, that's pretty brave...
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#### Schneau

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##### Re: THE Dominion Card List(s) 2.0
« Reply #51 on: June 27, 2012, 10:08:45 am »
+3

For the Favorite Card List portion of this, it is really hard to order 157 cards by hand without resorting to "aw man, all these middle cards are about the same, just throw them in randomly!" To combat this problem, I wrote a little python program that will sort the cards for you by asking you a series of "Which do you like better, card 1 or card 2" questions where you directly compare 2 cards. This uses the native python sorting algorithm, and should only require around 175 card comparisons. At the end, it prints out a nice list that you can copy and PM to Qvist.

If you want to try it out yourself, just run this program in python: https://gist.github.com/3004244
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#### Eevee

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##### Re: THE Dominion Card List(s) 2.0
« Reply #52 on: June 27, 2012, 10:10:36 am »
0

Why don't you play isotropic?

Because they ask for Google ID instead of having their own accounts.  I'm probably just being paranoid, but in accordance with the internet version of Pascal's Wager, I don't take the risk that I'm not.

Explorer will be largely underrated?  You mean there are people who will rate it below Counting House?

Iirc explorer was in the mid tier for me.
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#### theory

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##### Re: THE Dominion Card List(s) 2.0
« Reply #53 on: June 27, 2012, 10:38:27 am »
0

Why don't you play isotropic?

Because they ask for Google ID instead of having their own accounts.  I'm probably just being paranoid, but in accordance with the internet version of Pascal's Wager, I don't take the risk that I'm not.

See, I would rather trust Google than a random website.  I would rather have a single point of failure, that is very well-guarded, rather than multiple points of failure, with varying degrees of unknown guardedness.  The authentication process means isotropic doesn't know anything about your Google account.
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#### WanderingWinder

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##### Re: THE Dominion Card List(s) 2.0
« Reply #54 on: June 27, 2012, 10:49:39 am »
0

Why don't you play isotropic?

Because they ask for Google ID instead of having their own accounts.  I'm probably just being paranoid, but in accordance with the internet version of Pascal's Wager, I don't take the risk that I'm not.

See, I would rather trust Google than a random website.  I would rather have a single point of failure, that is very well-guarded, rather than multiple points of failure, with varying degrees of unknown guardedness.  The authentication process means isotropic doesn't know anything about your Google account.
See, for me, it's not so much about security, as it is about... they have ALL the information on me. In one place. Hi, Big Brother.

#### popsofctown

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##### Re: THE Dominion Card List(s) 2.0
« Reply #55 on: June 27, 2012, 10:52:28 am »
0

Google is primarily an advertising company.  I feel like if Big Brother's payoff is going to end up being creepily personalized ads, worse things could have happened to me.
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Also you probably are an expert if you buy two bureaucrats early.

#### Qvist

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##### Re: THE Dominion Card List(s) 2.0
« Reply #56 on: June 27, 2012, 11:00:18 am »
+3

For the Favorite Card List portion of this, it is really hard to order 157 cards by hand without resorting to "aw man, all these middle cards are about the same, just throw them in randomly!" To combat this problem, I wrote a little python program that will sort the cards for you by asking you a series of "Which do you like better, card 1 or card 2" questions where you directly compare 2 cards. This uses the native python sorting algorithm, and should only require around 175 card comparisons. At the end, it prints out a nice list that you can copy and PM to Qvist.

If you want to try it out yourself, just run this program in python: https://gist.github.com/3004244
Someone brought up the idea the last time. I do like the idea, but hadn't the time to code a nice interface for this. Haven't thought about a standalone program though. Thanks for sharing this. But I think it requires more than 175 card comparisons. It should be O(n log n) in complexity, so this makes about 350 comparisms. But I agree that it might go quicker than manually order them.

I didn't force you to enter your user name from this forum or isotropic, because there may be some that want to be anonymous.
But as I weight your ranking with your isotropic user level, maybe those 3 of you who didn't submit a user name may PM me and tell me!?

I did put a user name on my votes, not knowing it was optional, but I've never played on Isotropic so it's my user name here.  I use this user name most places I go and have done for many years, but being what it is there are some sites where I've had it "poached" from me.  So if there's an Isotropic user called Jedit, please don't use his ranking for weight on my votes.

Noted.
But I really don't want to initiate a Google Pro&Contra discussion here in this thread...
These discussions tend to go back and forth without a real result. Similar to Apple vs. Microsoft. Please open a new thread if you really want to discuss this.

#### WanderingWinder

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##### Re: THE Dominion Card List(s) 2.0
« Reply #57 on: June 27, 2012, 11:01:20 am »
0

Google is primarily an advertising company.  I feel like if Big Brother's payoff is going to end up being creepily personalized ads, worse things could have happened to me.
Their being an advertising company is precisely why I don't like it.
I don't like my information getting sold.

#### Schneau

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##### Re: THE Dominion Card List(s) 2.0
« Reply #58 on: June 27, 2012, 12:37:20 pm »
0

For the Favorite Card List portion of this, it is really hard to order 157 cards by hand without resorting to "aw man, all these middle cards are about the same, just throw them in randomly!" To combat this problem, I wrote a little python program that will sort the cards for you by asking you a series of "Which do you like better, card 1 or card 2" questions where you directly compare 2 cards. This uses the native python sorting algorithm, and should only require around 175 card comparisons. At the end, it prints out a nice list that you can copy and PM to Qvist.

If you want to try it out yourself, just run this program in python: https://gist.github.com/3004244
Someone brought up the idea the last time. I do like the idea, but hadn't the time to code a nice interface for this. Haven't thought about a standalone program though. Thanks for sharing this. But I think it requires more than 175 card comparisons. It should be O(n log n) in complexity, so this makes about 350 comparisms. But I agree that it might go quicker than manually order them.

You're right, I definitely made an error there. I had done some test runs with random comparisons, each of which returned a total of 156 comparisons, at which point I should have realized there was a bug, but did not. Luckily, the bug was just in the randomization, not in the posted code, which I used and worked great for me. But yes, this will be more in the 350 comparisons range, not 175.
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#### Death to Sea Hags

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##### Re: THE Dominion Card List(s) 2.0
« Reply #59 on: June 27, 2012, 07:17:40 pm »
+1

But yes, this will be more in the 350 comparisons range, not 175.

What if my own evaluation preferences are circular?
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#### rrenaud

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##### Re: THE Dominion Card List(s) 2.0
« Reply #60 on: June 27, 2012, 07:38:34 pm »
+1

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#### thirtyseven

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##### Re: THE Dominion Card List(s) 2.0
« Reply #61 on: June 27, 2012, 08:09:00 pm »
0

It should be O(n log n) in complexity
+1 for using big O notation

If this hasn't been mentioned yet, could you also list the change in rank of each card since last ranking?
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I'm only a mid-level player, so I may be wrong...

#### DStu

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##### Re: THE Dominion Card List(s) 2.0
« Reply #62 on: June 28, 2012, 01:56:24 am »
0

It should be O(n log n) in complexity
+1 for using big O notation

Actually, your want /Omega or /Theta, not O, as O is an upper bound, and we are discussing a lower bound...
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#### ftl

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##### Re: THE Dominion Card List(s) 2.0
« Reply #63 on: June 28, 2012, 02:17:58 am »
+2

Yeah, but in CS lingo everyone just uses O to mean that.
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#### Qvist

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##### Re: THE Dominion Card List(s) 2.0
« Reply #64 on: June 28, 2012, 07:49:14 am »
+1

Update: I have 59 "Best cards" lists so far, wow! 2 days remaining!

If this hasn't been mentioned yet, could you also list the change in rank of each card since last ranking?

I don't know if I have mentioned that, but yes I will do that.

#### Qvist

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##### Re: THE Dominion Card List(s) 2.0
« Reply #65 on: June 30, 2012, 05:56:41 pm »
0

Last update and reminder: 2 hours left

#### Rhombus

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##### Re: THE Dominion Card List(s) 2.0
« Reply #66 on: June 30, 2012, 06:43:18 pm »
0

Qvist, just making sure you received mine (sent earlier today).
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#### Qvist

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##### Re: THE Dominion Card List(s) 2.0
« Reply #67 on: June 30, 2012, 06:45:59 pm »
0

Qvist, just making sure you received mine (sent earlier today).

I did, thanks for that.

#### Qvist

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##### Re: THE Dominion Card List(s) 2.0
« Reply #68 on: July 01, 2012, 12:35:55 pm »
0

Normally I wanted to post the \$2 cards list today, but I'm a little bit ill now. So I'm sorry to say that you will have to wait until I'm fine again. Good start
And rrenaud, then I will also send you the info you wanted.

#### Qvist

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##### Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2012 Ed.2: Introduction and meta-discussion
« Reply #69 on: August 14, 2012, 05:29:13 pm »
+2

So, Edition 2 has come to an end. Here is the expansion rating. I will post the Favourite Card List soon.

#1 =0 Cornucopia 65% ▲1%
#2 =0 Prosperity 56% ▼5%
#3 =0 Seaside 55% ▼1%
#4 ▲1 Hinterlands 51% ▲7%
#5 ▼1 Intrigue 47% ▼1%
#6 =0 Base 38% ▼3%

#### ftl

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##### Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2012 Ed.2: Introduction and meta-discussion
« Reply #70 on: August 14, 2012, 05:34:27 pm »
0

Hinterlands went up, that's not surprising. Prosperity went down! That's cool.
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#### Tables

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##### Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2012 Ed.2: Introduction and meta-discussion
« Reply #71 on: August 15, 2012, 06:54:20 am »
+1

Cornucopia is still #1 by a large margin, eh? It's such a boring expansion. Overpowered card, overpowered card, overpowered and boring card, Fortune Teller. Like, Hunting Party alone should be shoving it down a few places.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.
I hereby declare myself the best dominion player in the world. Obviously.

#### brokoli

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##### Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2012 Ed.2: Introduction and meta-discussion
« Reply #72 on: August 15, 2012, 08:02:18 am »
+1

Cornucopia is still #1 by a large margin, eh? It's such a boring expansion. Overpowered card, overpowered card, overpowered and boring card, Fortune Teller. Like, Hunting Party alone should be shoving it down a few places.

On the contrary, cornucopia has a lot of powerful cards but not "overpowered" (aside tournament).
Hunting party is so funny ! and not "overpowered" like Mountebank and Witch.
Moreover, the cornucopia attacks are fairly balanced and not too wicked. Young witch has a bane, Jester is often peaceful...

And the variety theme prevent the repetitive effect in Dominion. IMO Really, the only downside of cornucopia is that there are only 13 cards.
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