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Author Topic: IsoDom 5: Discussion Thread (MAJOR ANNOUNCEMENT IN OP)  (Read 22563 times)

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greatexpectations

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Re: Re: IsoDom 5: Round 3 Results Thread
« Reply #50 on: June 26, 2012, 01:51:11 pm »
0

do we need another fork already?  i keep expecting matchup results in here and all i see is more arguments on what the formatting should be.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Re: IsoDom 5: Round 3 Results Thread
« Reply #51 on: June 26, 2012, 01:55:08 pm »
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do we need another fork already?  i keep expecting matchup results in here and all i see is more arguments on what the formatting should be.
I don't know why people post the stuff in these rather than the discussion threads (now that those exist). I feel important to make my responses in the thread the posts were originally made in. But I assume they can get moved, rather than actually making another new thread.

Obi Wan Bonogi

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Re: Re: IsoDom 5: Round 3 Results Thread
« Reply #52 on: June 26, 2012, 02:12:23 pm »
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You say that like it's stupidly obvious. But you can just as easily get seeds from overall ranking, which they do in all the sports I can think of that have a similar ranking system - which are only chess and tennis, of course, but there you go.

Sorry, felt obvious to me.  I have never made a top 8 in chess and didn't know that's how it was done, nor did I know swiss format tennis even existed.  Only swiss I am familiar with is Magic which was always seeded by performance that tournament, and similarly I was thinking of team sports like basketball and football which are seeded by that years record and the higher seed is awarded a slight edge in the elimination round(home field). 

I also apologize for clogging up the thread.
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theory

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Re: Re: IsoDom 5: Round 3 Results Thread
« Reply #53 on: June 26, 2012, 02:13:27 pm »
+1

I'll move all the stuff.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: IsoDom 5: Discussion Thread (MAJOR ANNOUNCEMENT IN OP)
« Reply #54 on: June 26, 2012, 02:19:15 pm »
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You say that like it's stupidly obvious. But you can just as easily get seeds from overall ranking, which they do in all the sports I can think of that have a similar ranking system - which are only chess and tennis, of course, but there you go.

Sorry, felt obvious to me.  I have never made a top 8 in chess and didn't know that's how it was done, nor did I know swiss format tennis even existed.  Only swiss I am familiar with is Magic which was always seeded by performance that tournament, and similarly I was thinking of team sports like basketball and football which are seeded by that years record and the higher seed is awarded a slight edge in the elimination round(home field). 

I also apologize for clogging up the thread.
Well, tennis doesn't have swisses, but it does have seeds. Okay, most often there aren't such things as 'top 8s' in chess tournaments, but there are again, most definitely seeds. In any rate, it was not at all clear to me that you were talking about the 'top 8' only here.
As for swisses in Chess... why do you think the swiss system was developed? ;)

Obi Wan Bonogi

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Re: IsoDom 5: Discussion Thread (MAJOR ANNOUNCEMENT IN OP)
« Reply #55 on: June 26, 2012, 02:23:18 pm »
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I knew swiss existed from Chess, I didn't know that the top 8 was seeded by rating.
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Kirian

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Re: IsoDom 5: Discussion Thread (MAJOR ANNOUNCEMENT IN OP)
« Reply #56 on: June 26, 2012, 02:28:44 pm »
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I'll move all the stuff.

Thanks.  Obviously I wasn't around to do so, but I'll do some clean-up if more is needed.

The final rounds aren't strictly necessary but they do give more of a "tournamenty" feel to this; after all, playing 5 Swiss rounds and calling it a night seems like not all that interesting.  Those final groups will be seeded based on Swiss rank.
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lespeutere

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Re: Re: IsoDom 5: Round 3 Results Thread
« Reply #57 on: June 28, 2012, 01:24:56 am »
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Unless by higher seeded, you mean they've done better so far in the tournament? Which means I'm totally mis-reading you.

Yes.  That is how you get seeds.  The top 8 is usually a bracket with the best record out of the swiss rounds (#1 seed) playing the #8 seed etc.  Im not sure if the semi-finals are reseeded or not? 

I just don't see the reason to use unverifiable random select for first player now that a smoother option has presented itself. 

Though I understand that it came along mid-tournament and changing the structure now could be problematic.  That is why I only suggested changes to the top 8 protocol.  Down the road I think balancing first player advantage throughout the swiss rounds would desirable as well. 
You say that like it's stupidly obvious. But you can just as easily get seeds from overall ranking, which they do in all the sports I can think of that have a similar ranking system - which are only chess and tennis, of course, but there you go.

Well, for Tennis at least it's totally unrelated to any home field advantage. I've never seen Roger and Rafael flying to Mallorca or Basel, respectively, to play the Wimbledon final. ;-)
I read OWB's original posting like having first player advantage as a result of having performed better in the Swiss stage (, I'd say it was at most ambiguous). And this you can indeed find in major US sports such as basketball (well, regular season is not Swiss, but OKC played Mavericks in Oklahoma first, before moving to Texas) and ice hockey (not too familiar with football, not at all with baseball, but I guess it's run accordingly). Anyway, along with Kirian it's something considerable for future events but I wouldn't change it during the tournament.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2012, 02:00:31 am by lespeutere »
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WanderingWinder

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Re: IsoDom 5: Discussion Thread (MAJOR ANNOUNCEMENT IN OP)
« Reply #58 on: June 28, 2012, 09:11:33 am »
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Unless by higher seeded, you mean they've done better so far in the tournament? Which means I'm totally mis-reading you.

Yes.  That is how you get seeds.  The top 8 is usually a bracket with the best record out of the swiss rounds (#1 seed) playing the #8 seed etc.  Im not sure if the semi-finals are reseeded or not? 

I just don't see the reason to use unverifiable random select for first player now that a smoother option has presented itself. 

Though I understand that it came along mid-tournament and changing the structure now could be problematic.  That is why I only suggested changes to the top 8 protocol.  Down the road I think balancing first player advantage throughout the swiss rounds would desirable as well. 
You say that like it's stupidly obvious. But you can just as easily get seeds from overall ranking, which they do in all the sports I can think of that have a similar ranking system - which are only chess and tennis, of course, but there you go.

Well, for Tennis at least it's totally unrelated to any home field advantage. I've never seen Roger and Rafael flying to Mallorca or Basel, respectively, to play the Wimbledon final. ;-)
I read OWB's original posting like having first player advantage as a result of having performed better in the Swiss stage (, I'd say it was at most ambiguous). And this you can indeed find in major US sports such as basketball (well, regular season is not Swiss, but OKC played Mavericks in Oklahoma first, before moving to Texas) and ice hockey (not too familiar with football, not at all with baseball, but I guess it's run accordingly). Anyway, along with Kirian it's something considerable for future events but I wouldn't change it during the tournament.

To be clear and fair to OWB here, it's definitely plausible to read his post in the way he intended. I just don't think it was entirely clear - my mind went the other way, with the chess background I have.

blueblimp

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Re: IsoDom 5: Discussion Thread (MAJOR ANNOUNCEMENT IN OP)
« Reply #59 on: August 01, 2012, 11:41:34 am »
+2

There have been some instances of players dropping because of being out of top-8 contention. I feel this is missing the point of a Swiss-style tournament.

From Wikipedia's article (which seems pretty good):
Quote
Compared to a knockout tournament the Swiss system has the inherent advantage of not eliminating anyone.
In other words, the point of running Swiss in the first place is so that players can keep playing. Especially in this tournament, with no prizes, the main reason to play in the tournament is to have an opportunity to play series (which imo I find more fun than auto-match).

Another advantage that Wikipedia lists:
Quote
Another advantage compared to knockout tournaments is that the final ranking gives some indication of relative strength for all contestants, not just for the winner of the tournament.
So in my opinion, a player isn't really "eliminated" until they can't improve their position at all by winning, which hopefully doesn't happen too often.
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andwilk

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Re: IsoDom 5: Discussion Thread (MAJOR ANNOUNCEMENT IN OP)
« Reply #60 on: August 01, 2012, 12:55:04 pm »
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There have been some instances of players dropping because of being out of top-8 contention. I feel this is missing the point of a Swiss-style tournament.

From Wikipedia's article (which seems pretty good):
Quote
Compared to a knockout tournament the Swiss system has the inherent advantage of not eliminating anyone.
In other words, the point of running Swiss in the first place is so that players can keep playing. Especially in this tournament, with no prizes, the main reason to play in the tournament is to have an opportunity to play series (which imo I find more fun than auto-match).

Another advantage that Wikipedia lists:
Quote
Another advantage compared to knockout tournaments is that the final ranking gives some indication of relative strength for all contestants, not just for the winner of the tournament.
So in my opinion, a player isn't really "eliminated" until they can't improve their position at all by winning, which hopefully doesn't happen too often.

I agree.  I also think that is poor sportsmanship to drop only because you can't make the top-8.  Everyone knew what they were signing up for and Swiss tournaments are designed so that everyone plays out their games.
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Kirian

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Re: IsoDom 5: Discussion Thread (MAJOR ANNOUNCEMENT IN OP)
« Reply #61 on: August 01, 2012, 02:49:02 pm »
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Yeah, I suspected this was coming. :)  It does go a bit against the spirit of a Swiss tournament to drop out, but then again part of the reason I went with Swiss over Round Robin is that Swiss handles dropouts much better.  I don't know that I'd go so far as to call it bad sportsmanship, though; I can understand that some people find auto-match more interesting, or prefer not to schedule times for matches, even if the only prize is minor glory and not-so-fame.

However, I'll take this into account for the next tournament.  Nonetheless, there will be dropouts and I don't want people to feel obligated to stay after they are fully eliminated.  For this tournament (and future ones), I'm going to make some modifications to the tie-breaker system used by Challonge, though.
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Fabian

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Re: IsoDom 5: Discussion Thread (MAJOR ANNOUNCEMENT IN OP)
« Reply #62 on: August 01, 2012, 02:52:18 pm »
+2

"It does go a bit against the spirit of a Swiss tournament to drop out"

I couldn't disagree more strongly, but maybe that's because I come from a Magic background, where it's almost expected that you drop once you can't reach the top 8 (or whatever the goal is; in larger tournaments top 64 or top 50 or something might be the goal).

Actually, I could disagree more strongly, and that would be to calling it bad sportsmanship.
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blueblimp

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Re: IsoDom 5: Discussion Thread (MAJOR ANNOUNCEMENT IN OP)
« Reply #63 on: August 01, 2012, 03:32:39 pm »
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I want to clarify that I don't want to pick on anyone for dropping, because it's only a game, after all. I don't think there's anything wrong as the rules as-is, either. I just want to point out that the games aren't meaningless even once "eliminated" w.r.t. playoffs, and maybe that can encourage people to keep playing.

Maybe my perspective here comes from being in Bracket B, so in some sense I knew from the start that I can't make "the" top 8, since the "real" top 8 is in Bracket A.
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Kirian

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Re: IsoDom 5: Discussion Thread (MAJOR ANNOUNCEMENT IN OP)
« Reply #64 on: August 01, 2012, 04:10:29 pm »
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I've posted a full schedule of tiebreakers, as well as how we'll handle forfeits and byes, in a separate thread.
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Qvist

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Re: IsoDom 5: Discussion Thread (MAJOR ANNOUNCEMENT IN OP)
« Reply #65 on: August 21, 2012, 08:53:36 pm »
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So, as isotropic stays online a few days longer, we could try to end this tournament in time, right? I really like to play my final game. What is the deadline for the Quarterfinals? Only 6 of 12 games were played so far...

Kirian

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Re: IsoDom 5: Discussion Thread (MAJOR ANNOUNCEMENT IN OP)
« Reply #66 on: August 21, 2012, 08:59:43 pm »
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So, as isotropic stays online a few days longer, we could try to end this tournament in time, right? I really like to play my final game. What is the deadline for the Quarterfinals? Only 6 of 12 games were played so far...

Yeah, my apologies for leaving things hanging a bit.  Between the impending end of Iso and being on vacation I didn't give much thought to things... until after Thursday of course.

Try to get your Qtrfinal matches by Saturday evening.
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Qvist

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Re: IsoDom 5: Discussion Thread (MAJOR ANNOUNCEMENT IN OP)
« Reply #67 on: August 27, 2012, 09:59:30 am »
+1

So, as isotropic stays online a few days longer, we could try to end this tournament in time, right? I really like to play my final game. What is the deadline for the Quarterfinals? Only 6 of 12 games were played so far...

Yeah, my apologies for leaving things hanging a bit.  Between the impending end of Iso and being on vacation I didn't give much thought to things... until after Thursday of course.

Try to get your Qtrfinal matches by Saturday evening.

It's Monday now and the games DG vs. Jfrisch and Teproc vs. jmieden are still missing.
I don't want to annoy you all, but it would be great if we could finish this tournament before iso goes down, wouldn't it?

Edit: -Stef- vs- ycz6 is also missing
« Last Edit: August 27, 2012, 10:15:11 am by Qvist »
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Kirian

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Re: IsoDom 5: Discussion Thread (MAJOR ANNOUNCEMENT IN OP)
« Reply #68 on: August 27, 2012, 01:42:28 pm »
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So, as isotropic stays online a few days longer, we could try to end this tournament in time, right? I really like to play my final game. What is the deadline for the Quarterfinals? Only 6 of 12 games were played so far...

Yeah, my apologies for leaving things hanging a bit.  Between the impending end of Iso and being on vacation I didn't give much thought to things... until after Thursday of course.

Try to get your Qtrfinal matches by Saturday evening.

It's Monday now and the games DG vs. Jfrisch and Teproc vs. jmieden are still missing.
I don't want to annoy you all, but it would be great if we could finish this tournament before iso goes down, wouldn't it?

Edit: -Stef- vs- ycz6 is also missing

I've had PMs from several of these.  One is getting played tonight, one will be a forfeit and another will be a double forfeit if I don't hear tonight.
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