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[randomdragoon]

Follow-up: I couldn't run a proper simulation, but I did try out a comparison of Chapel vs. Remake-trash-coppers with perfect shuffle luck. Best case scenario, the Remake strategy is in far better shape than I assumed against the Chapel strategy.

By the end of turn 6, Chapel had a deck of Chapel and 3 Silvers. By comparison, Remake had a deck of 3 Copper, 3 Estates, but 2 Silvers and a Gold. So, Remake has better buying power at the moment, and also can scale up faster because the Estates are still around to convert to Silver.

Play details, if anyone is curious:

Turn	Chapel	Remake
1	Buy Chapel	Buy Remake
2	Buy Silver	Buy Silver
3	Trash Estate x 3 & Copper x 1	Remake Copper x 2
4	Buy Silver	Buy Silver
5	Trash Copper x 4	Remake Copper x 2
6	Trash Copper x 2;	Buy Gold
	Buy Silver

Even if the Chapel player decides not to trash the Copper on turn 6 in order to buy a Gold, the Remake strategy can still scale up faster because the remaining Estates are Silvers-in-waiting for Remake.

I'm not too surprised; chapel+big money is actually not that strong. In your above example, remake currently has more buying power, but if there is any strong action combo on the board the chapel deck is going to be able to hit it first, due to having vastly fewer cards.

[Kirian]

By the end of turn 6, Chapel had a deck of Chapel and 3 Silvers. By comparison, Remake had a deck of 3 Copper, 3 Estates, but 2 Silvers and a Gold. So, Remake has better buying power at the moment

No, it doesn't.  The Chapel deck has an average draw value (ADV) of 6; the Remake deck has an ADV of 5.  Next turn, Chapel deck has an ADV of 9 (it obviously buys a Gold).  The Remake deck has an ADV of 5.9 if it buys a gold, 7 if it converts two Estates to Silvers, 6.7 if Remake hits C/E.

Also, perfect shuffle luck gets either deck 6 on T4.  Chapel deck at T6 should be Chapel-GGSC with perfect luck (value 9 this turn, 11 next turn [trash C, buy G]); Remaking Coppers with perfect luck gets Remake-GGSCCCEEE (value 6.1 this turn, 7.5 next by Remaking Estates to Silvers).

Let's consider instead a Remake deck trashing Estates:

1/2: Silver/Remake
3: Rem-CEEE, trash EE, gain SS
4: SCCCC, buy G
5: Rem-SCCE, trash CE, gain S, buy S.
6: GSSCC, buy G or P.

Total deck after turn 6 is Rem-GSSSSSCCCCCC plus G or P.  ADV: 7.3 on T5, 7.9 on T6 if a 2nd Gold is bought.

So, we have:

ADV on	Chapel Deck	Remake Estates	Remake Coppers
T5	7	7.3	4.4
T6	9	7.9	6.1
T7	11	8.3	7.5

Two outstanding questions:  (1) What if you buy a second Remake instead of the Gold on T4?  Results won't really show until after T7.  (2) Which strategy is more resilient to bad shuffle luck?

[rattenversammlung]

If anybody thinks that Silver keeps Remake from trashing fast enough,
the only logical conclusion would be that he must prefer Remake/nothing over Remake/Silver.

[painted_cow]

Comparison Chapel to any other trasher...very useful. Chapel always wins!

[WanderingWinder]

I'm actually not sure that the remake is 'scaling up faster' there. In fact, it's probably scaling up a touch slower - chapel player can guarantee buying gold every hand for as long as he likes starting on turn 7. Remake player won't. So chapel player is probably ramping  up significantly faster, but hey, that's not really a surprise. Also, the extra silvers will protect remake player more against deck bloating.

[guided]

My instinct is that by trashing Coppers first you trim like 50% faster at the cost of having basically no buying power at turn 5-7. It doesn't sound like a remotely attractive tradeoff to me.

[DG]

Going back to Renaud's original post, I've trashed coppers ahead of estates with a fair share of both wins and losses so I'm still undecided and playing it game by game. I think I played one game (against WanderingWinder maybe?) where I trashed out the coppers, remade the estates into silver then treasure maps, and cashed them instantly for enough gold to see me home. Getting silvers for spending in the early turns wasn't particularly important.

[WanderingWinder]

According to your logs, you have three TM/Remake games, but the one against me isn't the one you're referring to, which can be found here.

[guided]

I think I played one game (against WanderingWinder maybe?) where I trashed out the coppers, remade the estates into silver then treasure maps, and cashed them instantly for enough gold to see me home. Getting silvers for spending in the early turns wasn't particularly important.

OK, good find. For this combo trashing coppers first is probably better, since you have no need for early buying power and trimming 1-2 turns faster than the other guy is a big deal.


edit: hahaha, oh man I want this hand: "(DG draws: 2 Treasure Maps and 3 Golds.)"

[Superdad]

Also, the above post:

Getting Chapel+EEEC is a much lower probability than anything remake wants. if you mapped the probabilities for each permutation and averaged it out, it would be of more use. "Ideal shuffler" comparisons are really only of value if you compare the probabilities of both ideal situations occuring.

Remake doesn't care for perfect shuffle as much. Chapel trashing 4 coppers is still the correct play, but it is inifinitely inferior to a triple estate chapeling (afterwhich I always say a prayer of thanks to the shuffling gods).

[WanderingWinder]

Are we making a case that remake is a better opener than chapel here?

[chwhite]

Are we making a case that remake is a better opener than chapel here?

Depending on the board, I will in fact sometimes open Remake instead of Chapel.  In particular, the presence of good $3 cards like Menagerie and Fishing Village will push me towards Remake.

Overall, Chapel is on balance better, but that's mostly because of the 2/5 split.  Remake is by no means alone in the category of "deck thinners I'll take instead of Chapel": the Ambassador/Ambassador opening is not to be trifled with, and if the board leans Big Money I'll probably go Masquerade/Silver instead of Chapel.  It's pretty rarefied company though.

[Kirian]

Remake doesn't care for perfect shuffle as much.

Agreed.

Chapel trashing 4 coppers is still the correct play, but it is inifinitely inferior to a triple estate chapeling

[insert Inigo Montoya picture here]  Inigo would like to have some words with you.  16 to be precise.

Are we making a case that remake is a better opener than chapel here?

A more difficult question, this, if we ignore "optimal shuffles."  Would you rather trash four coppers or two coppers?  Obviously the former.  Would you rather trash CCCE or trash a Copper and turn Estate into Silver?  Tougher call.  There's a table to be made here I'm sure.

Remake is by no means alone in the category of "deck thinners I'll take instead of Chapel": the Ambassador/Ambassador opening is not to be trifled with

Simulations show that Ambassador/Chapel is superior to double Ambassador.

[WanderingWinder]

I can't think of a 16-word Inigo quote, and I can quote like half that movie off the top of my head.
Your sims can't really show that Chapel/Amb is superior to double Amb. It's highly situational to the rest of the board.

[guided]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YouKeepUsingThatWord

[papaHav]

Played a game recently opening remake/pawn-> peddlers.
Remaking copper took the cake here over estates since there were no 3$ actions and silver just clogs my deck as much as estates (with regards to lifting 5 peddlers at once)

Remake peddler-> plat.
Still prefer cleaning copper!

[WanderingWinder]

For some reason I was thinking it was "you keep ON using that word..." and I was getting 17. My apologies.

[Anon79]

This may be a crazy idea, but what about trashing one copper and turning one estate into a silver, instead of trashing 2 coppers or remaking 2 estates?

[IamOBESE]

mind is blown

[Kirian]

This may be a crazy idea, but what about trashing one copper and turning one estate into a silver, instead of trashing 2 coppers or remaking 2 estates?

I started a whole long post, then realized that this has been summed up much better and more simply by rattenversammlung:

If anybody thinks that Silver keeps Remake from trashing fast enough, the only logical conclusion would be that he must prefer Remake/nothing over Remake/Silver.

Who will champion the idea that Remake/nothing is better than Remake/Silver?

[Anon79]

I will champion the idea that Remaking your 2nd Estate into your 3rd Silver (assuming you started Remake/Silver) is worth less than trashing your first Copper.

[rspeer]

Who will champion the idea that Remake/nothing is better than Remake/Silver?

I'm not sure I believe it but I'll give it a try: on http://councilroom.com/openings?card=Remake, Remake/nothing has a slightly higher mean than Remake/Silver.

(Their error bars entirely overlap, though, so don't consider this any sort of well-founded conclusion.)

[Willvon]

This past weekend we had a 3-player game with Remake as the only trashing card in which we played the same deck twice.  We also had Menagerie as the Bane card.  The first time, I focused on trashing Estates into Menagerie/Siliver.  I still ended up with several curses despite the fact that I had several Menageries in my deck.  The second game I worked on trashing the coppers first over the estates (except for one hand where I did an estate and a copper).  My deck thinned quicker, and combining that with City and Young Witch, my two Menageries that I ended up with were getting pulled more regularly into my hand so that I actually ended up getting only two curses from the Young Witch.  The deck also included Festival, Militia and Horse Traders.  So even though I was low at first on treasure, those cards were giving me virtual money that allowed me to get to Platinums, Golds and Provinces pretty quickly.  My Tournaments then hit with my Provinces for the prizes and were giving me a card and a coin early.

I don't know that this would be true with all boards, but for me it definitely worked out better to thin the deck by getting rid of coppers first over turning Estates into Silvers/Menageries.  In addition, having action cards that give $2 in place of the lost coppers works great.