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Author Topic: Council Room vs. Margrave  (Read 5560 times)

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werothegreat

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Council Room vs. Margrave
« on: June 15, 2012, 12:28:37 pm »
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Was looking through the threads, and didn't see one like this.  Is Margrave inherently "better" than Council Room?  Checking councilroom.com (aha), the win rate for buying a Council Room at any turn is under 1.0, and the win rate for buying a Margrave on any turn is almost always above 1.0.  Is there any time you would favor Council Room over Margrave?  Is drawing 1 more card worth losing the discard attack?  Personally, the best combo I could see with this would be Council Room/Possession.
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: Council Room vs. Margrave
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2012, 12:31:59 pm »
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In a game with both Margrave and Council Room, I'd buy Margrave as my terminal assuming there were no better options. I'd buy one Margrave and then Council Rooms (maybe a second Margrave after 3 or 4 Council Rooms) if there are sufficient villages to build an engine. If they are not on the same board, the question is irrelevant.
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Captain_Frisk

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Re: Council Room vs. Margrave
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2012, 12:33:09 pm »
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Situations in which you prefer CR over Margrave.

1. Your previously mentioned Posession
2. Engine decks where you have another discard attack, and you want as much card as you can handle to keep the engine going.

Generally, you are correct.  Council Room is on the weaker side of cards, and Margrave is not.
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DStu

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Re: Council Room vs. Margrave
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2012, 12:36:56 pm »
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If I have an engine, and already have a Margrave?

The CR draws one more card, and with a finishing Margrave, the benefit to your opponent of Margrave is about the same as the benefit of CR (draw 1 card and discard 1 more card). Margrave discards directly, CR discards at the end of your turn with the finishing Margrave. So with CR your opponent can make a more informed descision on what to keep, but that's a quite small drawback for one more card.
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Robz888

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Re: Council Room vs. Margrave
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2012, 12:42:20 pm »
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Margrave is a better card than Council Room. They are identical in function, except Council Room causes everyone to draw +1 card, and Margrave causes your opponents to draw a card and discard 3 cards. The attack function is simply more powerful.

Margrave isn't super powerful, though. I'd say just about all the other $5 attacks are stronger. Well, not Jester or Rabble.

Council Room is just okay.
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chwhite

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Re: Council Room vs. Margrave
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2012, 12:55:41 pm »
+2

Margrave isn't super powerful, though. I'd say just about all the other $5 attacks are stronger. Well, not Jester or Rabble.

I didn't know you were such a fan of Saboteur. :P
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Re: Council Room vs. Margrave
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2012, 01:12:58 pm »
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Quote
Is there any time you would favor Council Room over Margrave?

If you have both in the same kingdom and are building a drawing deck then you might want a mix of both so that you get the best drawing for yourself while your opponent is still limited to a three card hand. You might pick council room first if it gains more cards faster.
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Robz888

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Re: Council Room vs. Margrave
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2012, 01:20:41 pm »
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Ha, knew I'd missed one. Yeah, I think Margrave might just narrowly beat out Saboteur  ;)
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gman314

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Re: Council Room vs. Margrave
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2012, 01:50:43 pm »
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Margrave is basically a Council Room with a built in Militia with the one downside of missing the +$2. If you play village, Council Room, Militia, you will end up with 2 buys, 7 cards and +$2.
If you play a single Margrave, you will end up with 2 buys and 7 cards.
Addition: The effect on your opponents is the same in both cases.

An interesting card idea would be a Council Room with a built in Ghost Ship instead of Militia.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2012, 03:27:25 pm by gman314 »
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ehunt

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Re: Council Room vs. Margrave
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2012, 01:54:33 pm »
+9

With council room, you don't have to wait for the opponent to click something to continue with your turn.
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rinkworks

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Re: Council Room vs. Margrave
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2012, 03:19:50 pm »
+2

Another way to look at it is just to consider the difference between the effects to yourself vs. the difference between the effects to your opponents.

The difference in the effect to yourself is a terminal +1 card draw.  This is significant:  the difference between Moat without its defensive capability and a Smithy.  That extra card you draw is worth roughly the average treasure value of all the cards in your deck.  Early on, that's $0.7 and usually rises quickly to over $1.  So let's say it's $1 on average.  Well, an extra $1 is the difference between Copper and Silver, or Silver and Gold.

However -- the fact that it's a terminal draw either way means that the extra card makes less of a difference than it does in a non-terminal.   That is, the difference isn't as great as the difference between a vanilla cantrip and a Laboratory.

But now look at the effect on your opponents.  Council Room's free card to your opponents is a non-terminal draw, because they don't use an action to get it.  Not only does Margrave deprive them of a free Laboratory effect, it attacks them as well!

I think what I'm saying is that if you had a $5 card that said, simply, "+3 Cards, +1 Buy" and nothing else, it would be normally preferable to Council Room!

However, there are situations where these differences matter more or less to you or your opponents anyway.  Times when you might prefer Council Room:

(1) The obvious one is if you've got an engine that lets you play Militia or Ghost Ship or something after a Council Room.  Then Council Room is obviously better, because you cancel out the advantage to your opponents while reaping the advantage to yourself.

(2) If your opponent is reliably drawing his deck every turn, even when he has to discard down to 3, obviously prefer Council Rooms.

(3) If your opponent has a "draw-up-to" thing going on, like a Festival/Library engine, neither the Laboratory effect nor the discard attack will affect your opponent's fortunes as much as usual.  True, a free Lab effect might cause the engine to fire on a turn when it otherwise wouldn't, but very often the free Lab will just mean that his first Library draws one fewer card, or that the discard attack means that his first Library will draw two more.  Big deal.

(4) If you've got a +Actions/+Cards engine with a non-drawing Village, you might need the Council Room to compensate.  Just as Village/Moat (+1 Card/+2 Cards) doesn't work as a drawing engine under normal circumstances, you'll have a hard time getting a Shanty Town/Margrave (+0 Cards/+3 Cards) engine to fire.  Harder, actually, because although one play of each draws the same number of cards, the former gives you an extra chance to get the drawer into your hand.

But a Shanty Town/Council Room (+0 Cards/+4 Cards) engine can work, because the extra card from the Council Room mostly compensates for the lack of draw on the Village component.  Now, a "pure" Shanty Town/Council Room engine probably doesn't outperform a simple BM+Council Room deck, but since we're only talking about boards that have both Council Room and Margrave on it, you can toss a single Margrave into that Council Room engine, play it last, and thereby (roughly) negate Council Room's penalty.  This trick should work with any kind of Village, not just non-drawing ones.  So here's one case where you want both cards, but mostly Council Rooms.
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popsofctown

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Re: Council Room vs. Margrave
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2012, 04:13:06 pm »
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Arguably, in this IsoDom game CR was better for me than Margrave would have been.

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120614-182824-31d36211.html
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jomini

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Re: Council Room vs. Margrave
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2012, 03:21:23 pm »
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Another case is engine -> council room -> minion (cards). Margrave let's the opponent choose the best three of six, council room -> minion just gives them a random 4 (almost always worse). In order to do this you need to have a reliable engine (e.g. really high minion/village/CR count, scheme, golem, haven) setup or an engine that draws & plays most all cards (e.g. you have exactly 4 cards in deck that aren't playable actions). If I know I can play a terminal minion discard, I will likely just skip the margrave and add in a CR/village at some point for the buys (assuming that either I can build a double province engine or have colonies out).

Another time is with tunnel out. Margrave has very high odds of hitting tunnels and also higher odds of allowing the opponent to line up gold/gold hands (either to buy another gold or a province). If I see my opponent go tunnels without a discarder, I'm going  to laugh and go BM/CR. I'd be more conflicted if they haven't bought tunnels yet, but might soon.
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jomini

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Re: Council Room vs. Margrave
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2012, 03:23:02 pm »
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Also, I it should be noted that margrave provides more cycling each time you play it. This means that they can keep building up to stronger 3 card hands. With a margrave engine, the opponent starts with their best 3 of 8 or something and that almost always means they start with the engine hitting.
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werothegreat

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Re: Council Room vs. Margrave
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2012, 04:39:04 pm »
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Another case is engine -> council room -> minion (cards). Margrave let's the opponent choose the best three of six, council room -> minion just gives them a random 4 (almost always worse). In order to do this you need to have a reliable engine (e.g. really high minion/village/CR count, scheme, golem, haven) setup or an engine that draws & plays most all cards (e.g. you have exactly 4 cards in deck that aren't playable actions). If I know I can play a terminal minion discard, I will likely just skip the margrave and add in a CR/village at some point for the buys (assuming that either I can build a double province engine or have colonies out).

Another time is with tunnel out. Margrave has very high odds of hitting tunnels and also higher odds of allowing the opponent to line up gold/gold hands (either to buy another gold or a province). If I see my opponent go tunnels without a discarder, I'm going  to laugh and go BM/CR. I'd be more conflicted if they haven't bought tunnels yet, but might soon.

Council Room definitely doesn't sting as much if your opponents are drawing useless Tunnels.  However, the point of Council Room is to make your hand as big as possible - why would you dump all of that with Minion just to make your opponent get a random 4 card hand?
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jomini

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Re: Council Room vs. Margrave
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2012, 04:49:28 pm »
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If council room is the only +buy and I'm mostly running an action cards setup for coin (e.g. I mean buying one or 2 CR, perhaps after the minions are piled).
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popsofctown

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Re: Council Room vs. Margrave
« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2012, 05:47:40 pm »
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Another case is engine -> council room -> minion (cards). Margrave let's the opponent choose the best three of six, council room -> minion just gives them a random 4 (almost always worse). In order to do this you need to have a reliable engine (e.g. really high minion/village/CR count, scheme, golem, haven) setup or an engine that draws & plays most all cards (e.g. you have exactly 4 cards in deck that aren't playable actions). If I know I can play a terminal minion discard, I will likely just skip the margrave and add in a CR/village at some point for the buys (assuming that either I can build a double province engine or have colonies out).

Another time is with tunnel out. Margrave has very high odds of hitting tunnels and also higher odds of allowing the opponent to line up gold/gold hands (either to buy another gold or a province). If I see my opponent go tunnels without a discarder, I'm going  to laugh and go BM/CR. I'd be more conflicted if they haven't bought tunnels yet, but might soon.

Council Room definitely doesn't sting as much if your opponents are drawing useless Tunnels.  However, the point of Council Room is to make your hand as big as possible - why would you dump all of that with Minion just to make your opponent get a random 4 card hand?

Secret Chamber?  '\_( '_' )_/'
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werothegreat

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Re: Council Room vs. Margrave
« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2012, 06:37:58 pm »
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Another case is engine -> council room -> minion (cards). Margrave let's the opponent choose the best three of six, council room -> minion just gives them a random 4 (almost always worse). In order to do this you need to have a reliable engine (e.g. really high minion/village/CR count, scheme, golem, haven) setup or an engine that draws & plays most all cards (e.g. you have exactly 4 cards in deck that aren't playable actions). If I know I can play a terminal minion discard, I will likely just skip the margrave and add in a CR/village at some point for the buys (assuming that either I can build a double province engine or have colonies out).

Another time is with tunnel out. Margrave has very high odds of hitting tunnels and also higher odds of allowing the opponent to line up gold/gold hands (either to buy another gold or a province). If I see my opponent go tunnels without a discarder, I'm going  to laugh and go BM/CR. I'd be more conflicted if they haven't bought tunnels yet, but might soon.

Council Room definitely doesn't sting as much if your opponents are drawing useless Tunnels.  However, the point of Council Room is to make your hand as big as possible - why would you dump all of that with Minion just to make your opponent get a random 4 card hand?

Secret Chamber?  '\_( '_' )_/'

So Council Room, Minion, Tunnel, Secret Chamber, and a Village all happen to be in the same Kingdom?
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Council Room vs. Margrave
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2012, 06:48:00 pm »
+1

I've had Border Village, Governor, Black Market and Minion in the same kingdom. (The same idea, natch.)
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jomini

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Re: Council Room vs. Margrave
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2012, 08:14:34 am »
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Another case is engine -> council room -> minion (cards). Margrave let's the opponent choose the best three of six, council room -> minion just gives them a random 4 (almost always worse). In order to do this you need to have a reliable engine (e.g. really high minion/village/CR count, scheme, golem, haven) setup or an engine that draws & plays most all cards (e.g. you have exactly 4 cards in deck that aren't playable actions). If I know I can play a terminal minion discard, I will likely just skip the margrave and add in a CR/village at some point for the buys (assuming that either I can build a double province engine or have colonies out).

Another time is with tunnel out. Margrave has very high odds of hitting tunnels and also higher odds of allowing the opponent to line up gold/gold hands (either to buy another gold or a province). If I see my opponent go tunnels without a discarder, I'm going  to laugh and go BM/CR. I'd be more conflicted if they haven't bought tunnels yet, but might soon.

Council Room definitely doesn't sting as much if your opponents are drawing useless Tunnels.  However, the point of Council Room is to make your hand as big as possible - why would you dump all of that with Minion just to make your opponent get a random 4 card hand?

Secret Chamber?  '\_( '_' )_/'

So Council Room, Minion, Tunnel, Secret Chamber, and a Village all happen to be in the same Kingdom?

Nah. Tunnel was a separate case. With tunnel in play, particularly if my opponent has bought one or two, I'm almost certainly going to go CR/BM over Margrave/BM.

For the minion case, CR gives me an extra card and if I'm planning on whacking him with a minion at the end he can't just choose the best 3 cards. So in a minion engine (e.g. something like minion/village/terminal-silver), particularly a thin one, I'll add a CR or two mostly for the +buy. Yeah the 4 cards help, but the penalty card does not exist if you play minion for cards again before the end of the turn. Margrave actually helps your opponent in such decks - they have better odds of getting a minion into hand and even pairing up villages with other stuff.
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