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Author Topic: Black market bane  (Read 19806 times)

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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: Black market bane
« Reply #25 on: June 12, 2012, 02:51:30 am »
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4) Hey, why did you open double Chancellor when Sea Hag is on the board?

To get the Curses off the top of the deck. Obviously.
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yudantaiteki

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Re: Black market bane
« Reply #26 on: June 12, 2012, 04:49:52 am »
+1

4) Hey, why did you open double Chancellor when Sea Hag is on the board?

To get the Curses off the top of the deck. Obviously.

Also as we know from Saboteur, attacks with no benefit to you aren't very good.
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Morgrim7

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Re: Black market bane
« Reply #27 on: June 12, 2012, 08:05:11 am »
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4) Hey, why did you open double Chancellor when Sea Hag is on the board?

To get the Curses off the top of the deck. Obviously.

Also as we know from Saboteur, attacks with no benefit to you aren't very good.
Oh, yes of course. Sea Hag must be a terrible card then. Silly me. For anyone reading this, never open Sea Hag when Chancellor is on the board, okay?
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pingpongsam

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Re: Black market bane
« Reply #28 on: June 12, 2012, 02:24:30 pm »
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FWIW, Just played a random Iso game with YW in the BM deck and Lookout was the Bane.
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J.Co.

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Re: Black market bane
« Reply #29 on: July 27, 2012, 11:56:53 pm »
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Well, here's my attempt to clarify a lot of what's been said already into one post.

First of all, as Theory mentioned, you don't need to put EVERY kingdom card that isn't being used into the Black Market deck. That was a just a suggestion that came with the rules, if I remember correctly. So you can simply choose not to use Young Witch at all.

Secondly, the Cornucopia rules state that if Young Witch "is in the game," create a Bane pile. It doesn't restrict it to being in the Kingdom only. So if Black Market is chosen to be in the Kingdom, Young Witch would be known to be in the Black Market deck, since that is chosen beforehand; therefore, it'd require a Bane pile to be set up....Actually, I just finished reading the paragraph in the Cornucopia setup, and it specifically mentions using a Bane card with Black Market. So that's settled. Again. By the way, the rules also specifically mention putting out the Prizes if Tournament is in the Black Market as well. 

If Young Witch is in the normal Kingdom, a Bane is chosen, which means that card now is in the supply (and applies to game-ending conditions, etc., as the rulebook states). So if Black Market is in the Kingdom, the card that has been chosen as the Bane cannot be in the Black Market since it already is in the game. If Young Witch is not in the Kingdom, but Black Market is, a Bane is still chosen (provided Young Witch is in the Black Market deck, which doesn't have to happen) and placed in the supply, which means that the Bane is no longer in the Black Market. Bottom line: there's no way to have a card in both the supply and the Black Market deck.

My question here is if you can have a situation where the 10 normal cards are neither bm nor YW but YW is in the BM and BM is the bane, so each one justifies the other but the entire loop is unnecessary.

This cannot happen. If neither is in the Kingdom, there is no Black Market deck. The only reason for Black Market to be the Bane is if Young Witch is already chosen as one of the 10 Kingdom cards. If Black Market then is chosen as the Bane, Young Witch could not be in the Black Market deck since it's already in the supply.

The only thing that isn't specified in the rules is if there isn't a $2- or $3-cost card from which to choose for the Bane. But at that point, players probably would be willing to swap in a different Kingdom card with one of the $2- or $3-cost cards in the Kingdom. Every expansion has at least a handful, so there's no way that $2- or $3-cost cards would not be available.

On an unrelated side note, I know it was mentioned in another thread, but if a reaction card is the Bane card, you would get its reaction ability first upon revealing it, and if that Bane/reaction card is still in your hand, you could block from receiving the curse. I believe you could just choose to reveal the Bane/reaction card from your hand to block the curse if its ability would result in it disappearing from your hand, though I'm not sure there's a reaction card that both blocks a curse and gets set aside at the same time, anyway. Although interestingly enough, if Lighthouse is the Bane, having it in your hand or in play from the previous turn would block the curse....But I digress.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2012, 11:58:44 pm by J.Co. »
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Dominionaer

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Re: Black market bane
« Reply #30 on: July 30, 2012, 02:58:10 pm »
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if a reaction card is the Bane card, you would get its reaction ability first upon revealing it, ...
Veto. No reaction fullfill this. Only secret chamber one may reveal at different times. The others, if usable at all, one have to decide wether bane or reaction ability.

... I'm not sure there's a reaction card that both blocks a curse and gets set aside at the same time
There is none!
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Black market bane
« Reply #31 on: July 30, 2012, 03:02:00 pm »
+1

if a reaction card is the Bane card, you would get its reaction ability first upon revealing it, ...
Veto. No reaction fullfill this. Only secret chamber one may reveal at different times. The others, if usable at all, one have to decide wether bane or reaction ability.
Technically, here's what happens.
Player A plays YW
This is the playing of an attack, so any reactions which can be played in response to an attack can get revealed now, and if they are revealed, you get that effect now.
Player A carries out the text of YW.
The part of the YW text which mentions revealing a bane triggers.
At this point, a bane may be revealed to block the curse.
Assuming there hasn't been a block of the curse (via lighthouse, moat, or bane), and there are curses to give out, other player gains a curse.
At this point, having just gained a card, one could potentially trigger watchtower's ability.

J.Co.

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Re: Black market bane
« Reply #32 on: August 01, 2012, 01:02:09 am »
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if a reaction card is the Bane card, you would get its reaction ability first upon revealing it, ...
Veto. No reaction fullfill this. Only secret chamber one may reveal at different times. The others, if usable at all, one have to decide wether bane or reaction ability.
Right, but that's only because there isn't really a reaction card like that. Say there was a reaction card that said "If you get attacked, reveal this card. +1 card." So someone plays Young Witch, you reveal this reaction card, which also happens to be the Bane card, and draw a card. Then, you reveal again and it would block the curse. Theoretically, that would be correct, right?
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AJD

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Re: Black market bane
« Reply #33 on: August 01, 2012, 01:14:23 am »
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if a reaction card is the Bane card, you would get its reaction ability first upon revealing it, ...
Veto. No reaction fullfill this. Only secret chamber one may reveal at different times. The others, if usable at all, one have to decide wether bane or reaction ability.
Right, but that's only because there isn't really a reaction card like that. Say there was a reaction card that said "If you get attacked, reveal this card. +1 card." So someone plays Young Witch, you reveal this reaction card, which also happens to be the Bane card, and draw a card. Then, you reveal again and it would block the curse. Theoretically, that would be correct, right?

Strictly speaking, you reveal attack-triggered Reactions immediately when Young Witch is played, and Bane cards after the person who played Young Witch has drawn and discarded two cards. So basically, yes, in the order you describe, but not in the other order.

So the way it breaks down is:
if Moat is the Bane, you can reveal it immediately or after the draw-and-discard, and it will block the Curse either way.
If Secret Chamber is the Bane, you can reveal it immediately to swap cards with the top of your deck; and if it's still in your hand after you do that, you can reveal it again to block the Curse; but you can't use it to swap cards back onto the top of your deck again after you block the Curse with the Bane, whether it's Secret Chamber or any other Bane. (You can do this if you block the Curse with Moat's reaction, however.)
If Watchtower is the Bane, you can reveal it after the draw-and-discard to block the Curse, or, if you don't do that, you can reveal it on-gain to trash the Curse.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Black market bane
« Reply #34 on: August 01, 2012, 01:19:57 am »
+1

if a reaction card is the Bane card, you would get its reaction ability first upon revealing it, ...
Veto. No reaction fullfill this. Only secret chamber one may reveal at different times. The others, if usable at all, one have to decide wether bane or reaction ability.
Right, but that's only because there isn't really a reaction card like that. Say there was a reaction card that said "If you get attacked, reveal this card. +1 card." So someone plays Young Witch, you reveal this reaction card, which also happens to be the Bane card, and draw a card. Then, you reveal again and it would block the curse. Theoretically, that would be correct, right?

Just a note -- there will never be a reaction card that says "reveal this card for +1 card" because you are allowed to reveal reactions as many times as you want.  A reaction like that might as well read "put your deck into your hand".  The correct way to implement a reaction on those lines is Horse Traders.
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Dominionaer

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Re: Black market bane
« Reply #35 on: August 01, 2012, 07:24:15 am »
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if Moat ...
If Secret Chamber ...
If Watchtower ...
Just for completeness:
If Trader is the Bane, you can reveal it after the draw-and-discard to block the Curse, or, if you don't do that, you can reveal it pre-gain to change the Curse to a silver.
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Morgrim7

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Re: Black market bane
« Reply #36 on: August 01, 2012, 08:05:09 am »
+1

if Moat ...
If Secret Chamber ...
If Watchtower ...
Just for completeness:
If Trader is the Bane, you can reveal it after the draw-and-discard to block the Curse, or, if you don't do that, you can reveal it pre-gain to change the Curse to a silver.
Trader can't be the Bane, it costs $4.
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"Oh sweet merciful heavens.

I sit here, lost amongst the cloud, that which is the brain of the Morgrim Mod. Perhaps I will learn the inner workings of that storied mind. Perhaps I will simply go mad.

Mad, I tell you.

Maaaaaaaaaaaaad." -Voltgloss
Dominion Notation: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7265.msg206246#msg206246

RiemannZetaJones

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Re: Black market bane
« Reply #37 on: August 02, 2012, 10:17:54 am »
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Which begs the question: If you are using the "every card not in the Kingdom is part of the BM deck" option, and BM is in the kingdom and YW is not, how do you choose a bane? Every other card is already in the kingdom/BM deck by this point.

As far as I can tell, this question and also all the obvious variations on it, where for some reason the Black Market deck already contains all the cards that could qualify as a bane, is without a satisfactory answer.
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AJD

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Re: Black market bane
« Reply #38 on: August 02, 2012, 11:07:56 am »
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Which begs the question: If you are using the "every card not in the Kingdom is part of the BM deck" option, and BM is in the kingdom and YW is not, how do you choose a bane? Every other card is already in the kingdom/BM deck by this point.

As far as I can tell, this question and also all the obvious variations on it, where for some reason the Black Market deck already contains all the cards that could qualify as a bane, is without a satisfactory answer.

You choose a Bane and remove the card from the Black Market deck.
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DStu

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Re: Black market bane
« Reply #39 on: August 02, 2012, 11:18:34 am »
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Which begs the question: If you are using the "every card not in the Kingdom is part of the BM deck" option, and BM is in the kingdom and YW is not, how do you choose a bane? Every other card is already in the kingdom/BM deck by this point.

As far as I can tell, this question and also all the obvious variations on it, where for some reason the Black Market deck already contains all the cards that could qualify as a bane, is without a satisfactory answer.

I think in the case where everything remaining is in the BM-deck, there are two possibilities. You can either claim you are a computer programm and run into a deadlock, or you realize that, as everthing will be in the BM-deck, YW will be either in the supply or in the BM-deck, so you definitely will need a bane in every game with BM.  So, you just realize that "everything is in the BM-deck" will never produce a valid* setup.  So you should modify your rule for the BM-deck, my proposal would be "everything except a random $2 or $3 card", which is equivalent to "draw the bane before you put the BM-deck together".

*except you think that "do everything as far as you can" also applies to the setup of the game, in which case you will just play without bane for Young Witches from the BM.
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engineer

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Re: Black market bane
« Reply #40 on: August 02, 2012, 01:04:05 pm »
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I think that a bane should not be used, for the simple reason that you will only have a maximum of one YW in the game.  Nobody would buy the bane card just to ward off the one young witch that may or may not come up.  Consequently, if you add a bane card, all you're really doing is expanding the kingdom by a card.  Playing standard Dominion with 11-card kingdoms might be fun, but it's not the original design, so using one lone black-market YW as a vehicle to get an 11th card (which, again, will almost never be used as a bane) seems silly.
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engineer

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Re: Black market bane
« Reply #41 on: August 02, 2012, 01:05:41 pm »
+1

Think of it this way: the YW in the BM is travelling from a very, very far off land.  She's afraid of something, but nobody around here knows what it could be, and we certainly don't have any of those things around here anyway.
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AJD

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Re: Black market bane
« Reply #42 on: August 02, 2012, 01:21:42 pm »
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I think that a bane should not be used, for the simple reason that you will only have a maximum of one YW in the game.  Nobody would buy the bane card just to ward off the one young witch that may or may not come up.  Consequently, if you add a bane card, all you're really doing is expanding the kingdom by a card.  Playing standard Dominion with 11-card kingdoms might be fun, but it's not the original design, so using one lone black-market YW as a vehicle to get an 11th card (which, again, will almost never be used as a bane) seems silly.

The Cornucopia rules specifically state that if YW is in the Black Market deck, a Bane is to be included in the kingdom.
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AJD

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Re: Black market bane
« Reply #43 on: August 02, 2012, 01:29:45 pm »
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*except you think that "do everything as far as you can" also applies to the setup of the game, in which case you will just play without bane for Young Witches from the BM.

I dunno, I think "do everything as far as you can" still gets you a Bane: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=2883.msg49322#msg49322
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shMerker

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Re: Black market bane
« Reply #44 on: August 02, 2012, 02:04:07 pm »
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I wonder if we can beetlejuice Donald X. (Donald X. Donald X.) into this thread. Seems like a good time for it.
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Donald X.

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Re: Black market bane
« Reply #45 on: August 03, 2012, 05:25:00 am »
+3

I wonder if we can beetlejuice Donald X. (Donald X. Donald X.) into this thread. Seems like a good time for it.
I am not sure what question you want answered. Does it involve reading all these posts about Black Market? I hope not. Do as much as you can, is that the answer?
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AJD

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Re: Black market bane
« Reply #46 on: August 03, 2012, 10:09:29 am »
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I wonder if we can beetlejuice Donald X. (Donald X. Donald X.) into this thread. Seems like a good time for it.
I am not sure what question you want answered. Does it involve reading all these posts about Black Market? I hope not. Do as much as you can, is that the answer?

I think the question they want answered is, what do you do if you need to pick a Bane card for Young Witch, but literally every single $2 or $3 card is already in the Black Market deck? I'm pretty sure the answer is, don't be an idiot, select a Bane card and take it out of the Black Market deck.
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DStu

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Re: Black market bane
« Reply #47 on: August 03, 2012, 10:12:57 am »
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I think the question they want answered is, what do you do if you need to pick a Bane card for Young Witch, but literally every single $2 or $3 card is already in the Black Market deck? I'm pretty sure the answer is, don't be an idiot, select a Bane card and take it out of the Black Market deck.
I don't think so, if that would be the case, we would not have needed the thread.
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Donald X.

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Re: Black market bane
« Reply #48 on: August 03, 2012, 10:54:31 am »
+1

I think the question they want answered is, what do you do if you need to pick a Bane card for Young Witch, but literally every single $2 or $3 card is already in the Black Market deck? I'm pretty sure the answer is, don't be an idiot, select a Bane card and take it out of the Black Market deck.
Do as much as you can. I had a hunch.

You don't need Black Market for this. Bring Prosperity, Cornucopia, and the base cards to a game night. Deal out a set of cards that includes Young Witch and every $2 or $3 you've got.

In practice I think no-one would ever have any problem whatsoever producing a Bane if somehow this came up.
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Re: Black market bane
« Reply #49 on: August 04, 2012, 03:39:27 am »
+4

I think the question they want answered is, what do you do if you need to pick a Bane card for Young Witch, but literally every single $2 or $3 card is already in the Black Market deck? I'm pretty sure the answer is, don't be an idiot, select a Bane card and take it out of the Black Market deck.
I don't think so, if that would be the case, we would not have needed the thread.
We dont really need the thread.
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