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Author Topic: Black market bane  (Read 19805 times)

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newb246

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Black market bane
« on: June 11, 2012, 11:15:15 am »
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Can you have a situation where young witch is in the black market and black marke is the bane?
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Robz888

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Re: Black market bane
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2012, 11:23:06 am »
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No, because the presence of Young Witch causes you to add an additional kingdom, and Black Market would have to already be a chosen kingdom (with YW in it) to necessitate a Bane.
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Re: Black market bane
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2012, 02:51:58 pm »
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I do not understand Robz' answer, "Young Witch causes you to add an additional kingdom".

What does that mean?
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Grujah

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Re: Black market bane
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2012, 02:53:06 pm »
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When Young Witch is selected as a Kingdom card, you select an additional (11th) kingdom card (costing $2 or $3) to be bane.
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Ozle

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Re: Black market bane
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2012, 02:53:34 pm »
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He means an additional card to the kingdom' so you have 11 instead of 10, with that last one being the bane
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Re: Black market bane
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2012, 02:55:32 pm »
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Okay, I don't yet have Cornucopia at home and I have NEVER noticed that there are 11 supply piles in a YW game.

Apologies for my ignorance.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Black market bane
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2012, 02:55:53 pm »
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I do not understand Robz' answer, "Young Witch causes you to add an additional kingdom".

What does that mean?
An additional kingdom card, i.e. you have 10 piles of cards out that define this particular game of dominion from every other one, right? Well, young witch makes you add an 11th pile. But because of the order things happen, BM can't be the bane. If young witch is in the black market, you must have a) picked your 10 kingdom piles, THEN b)made your black market, which in this case apparently includes young witch, and only THEN c) choose a bane card, which you have to do out of the 2 and 3 cost cards which aren't in the kingdom already (or in the black market?), and since black market IS in the kingdom already, you can't pick it as a bane in this case.
Hope that clears it up.

Thisisnotasmile

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Re: Black market bane
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2012, 03:05:22 pm »
+2

Which begs the question: If you are using the "every card not in the Kingdom is part of the BM deck" option, and BM is in the kingdom and YW is not, how do you choose a bane? Every other card is already in the kingdom/BM deck by this point.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2012, 05:06:24 pm by Thisisnotasmile »
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Grujah

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Re: Black market bane
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2012, 03:08:32 pm »
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9 card Kingdom  ;D
You choose Bane first, obviously.

(you don't even need to use every Kingdom for BM, just 'nuff to cover 2s and 3s)
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Black market bane
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2012, 03:09:53 pm »
+1

Which begs the question: If you are using the "every card not in the Kingdom is part of the BM deck" option, and BM is in the kingdom and YW is not, how do you choose a bane? Every other card is already in the kindom/BM deck by this point.
I believe that if we follow the standard 'do everything you can, ignore stuff you can't do' edict, you get no bane.

theory

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Re: Black market bane
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2012, 03:16:12 pm »
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Which begs the question: If you are using the "every card not in the Kingdom is part of the BM deck" option, and BM is in the kingdom and YW is not, how do you choose a bane? Every other card is already in the kindom/BM deck by this point.
AFAIK there's no rule that "every card not in the Kingdom is part of the BM deck", just some expectation?  Seems easy enough to just compose the BM deck last after a bane gets picked.

Also it's not totally gamebreaking to have a copy of a card in both the BM and in the Kingdom.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Black market bane
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2012, 03:21:43 pm »
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Which begs the question: If you are using the "every card not in the Kingdom is part of the BM deck" option, and BM is in the kingdom and YW is not, how do you choose a bane? Every other card is already in the kindom/BM deck by this point.
AFAIK there's no rule that "every card not in the Kingdom is part of the BM deck", just some expectation?  Seems easy enough to just compose the BM deck last after a bane gets picked.

Also it's not totally gamebreaking to have a copy of a card in both the BM and in the Kingdom.
But you have to know that YW is in the BM before you pick a bane; otherwise, you'd need no bane. Unless you're saying to pick a bane before you pick the BM, just in case, but in that case, you're much less likely to see whatever 2/3 you set aside. All in all, it doesn't matter that much, but I don't see why the answer isn't just 'there is no bane'.

theory

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Re: Black market bane
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2012, 03:28:07 pm »
+1

Because then YW is a very different card?

If you play with every single card not in the Kingdom in the BM deck, then by definition, you'll always need a bane in every game you play.  So the BM deck is always going to be 1 smaller that it otherwise would be.
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newb246

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Re: Black market bane
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2012, 03:39:40 pm »
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To clarify my question:

The scenario I am suggesting is that you have 10 normal kingdom cards (none of them black market or yw) and in addition your 11th pile is bm which is the bane and yw is in the bm.

The crux of the question:   Each card has a reason for existing.  The yw is justified by the bm and the bm is justified by the yw.  So each card has a cause or reason but there is not sufficient reason for the entire loop
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Grujah

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Re: Black market bane
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2012, 03:43:09 pm »
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But you do not put 11th pile unless there is yw in 10 normal kingdoms.
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newb246

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Re: Black market bane
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2012, 03:54:51 pm »
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if YW is in BM, you also need a bane. 

In the simple case where BM is one of the 10 kingdom cards and YW is in the BM you would need an 11th bane pile.  My question here is if you can have a situation where the 10 normal cards are neither bm nor YW but YW is in the BM and BM is the bane, so each one justifies the other but the entire loop is unnecessary.
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: Black market bane
« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2012, 03:58:27 pm »
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No matter how many times you repeat it, it still can't happen. A bane is added if and only if there is a Young Witch. You cannot add a bane and then retroactively use that to add a Young Witch.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Black market bane
« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2012, 05:18:29 pm »
+1

Because then YW is a very different card?

If you play with every single card not in the Kingdom in the BM deck, then by definition, you'll always need a bane in every game you play.  So the BM deck is always going to be 1 smaller that it otherwise would be.

I don't find 'That makes it very different' to be a very convincing argument. The presence of tactician makes black market a very different card, but I don't see why this should make either card behave differently than they do, rules-wise. Neither here. In fact, I am fairly confident that in the rare situation where you have so may cards in the black market, even if not all the cards you own, that there aren't any 2/3s left, or the more common situation where people aren't playing with that many different sets - say I'm playing with just base and cornucopia or something - that by the rules of the game, there's no other interpretation than to have no bane. It's very similar to the 'well, if curses are always available, there must be something to do with them' kind of mindset, where you get people to just come up with weird house rules because that's all that seems to make sense to them, when really that's not what the game does.
Again, I don't really expect this to come up very often. I just don't see how you can possibly materialize your other solutions from the rule book, given that they're just not there.

Edit: more precisely, it's like the people who think that TR->feast only gains them one thing.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2012, 05:21:58 pm by WanderingWinder »
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Re: Black market bane
« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2012, 05:22:43 pm »
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As with Dominion itself, you follow a few basic rules unless told to otherwise by the cards.  After dealing out 10 non-Black Market, non-Young Witch cards you've done everything you've been asked to, so move onto the so-called "playing" phase of the game.

The closed-loop state is clearly desirable, but generally regarded as inaccessible from our component of the universe.  I believe that in the (conjectured) other component the rulebook comes with a metaFAQ with the entry "If Young Witch and Black Market are both selected, choose the Bane first—don't be silly guys."
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Black market bane
« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2012, 05:25:55 pm »
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As with Dominion itself, you follow a few basic rules unless told to otherwise by the cards.  After dealing out 10 non-Black Market, non-Young Witch cards you've done everything you've been asked to, so move onto the so-called "playing" phase of the game.

The closed-loop state is clearly desirable, but generally regarded as inaccessible from our component of the universe.  I believe that in the (conjectured) other component the rulebook comes with a metaFAQ with the entry "If Young Witch and Black Market are both selected, choose the Bane first—don't be silly guys."
Again, this doesn't help you if Young Witch is IN the black market.

AJD

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Re: Black market bane
« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2012, 05:51:28 pm »
+1

In fact, I am fairly confident that in the rare situation where you have so may cards in the black market, even if not all the cards you own, that there aren't any 2/3s left, or the more common situation where people aren't playing with that many different sets - say I'm playing with just base and cornucopia or something - that by the rules of the game, there's no other interpretation than to have no bane. It's very similar to the 'well, if curses are always available, there must be something to do with them' kind of mindset, where you get people to just come up with weird house rules because that's all that seems to make sense to them, when really that's not what the game does.

Again, I don't really expect this to come up very often. I just don't see how you can possibly materialize your other solutions from the rule book, given that they're just not there.

I actually don't see how you're reaching this conclusion. Let's follow the rules and see what we get:

1. Black Market's in the kingdom! What do we do?
—Make a Black Market deck out of one copy of each Kingdom card not in the Supply. Okay, in they all go.
2. Hey, that means Young Witch is in the Black Market deck! What do we do?
—Add an extra Kingdom card pile costing $2 or $3 to the supply.
3. Okay, where do we find this Kingdom card pile?
—Well, some $2 and $3 cards are in the kingdom already; obviously can't use those, since they wouldn't be "extra".
—Looks like we'll have to choose a $2 or $3 card that's not in the kingdom already.
4. All right, I found one! Wait a minute, there's only nine cards here.
—Oh, right, the tenth one is already in the Black Market deck.
5. Well, Young Witch says we have to add this Kingdom pile to the supply. Kingdom piles have ten cards in them (or eight or twelve if they're Victory cards). So go get that tenth card out of the Black Market deck and put it back in the Kingdom.

Note this argument has interesting consequences in a two-player game if Tunnel or Great Hall is the bane.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2012, 01:23:54 pm by AJD »
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danno

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Re: Black market bane
« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2012, 06:53:15 pm »
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I agree with WanderingWinder here. Consider the following:

Quote
2. Hey, that means Young Witch is in the Black Market deck! What do we do?
—Add an extra Kingdom card pile costing $2 or $3 to the supply.

The Setup rules state "Young Witch: This card causes there to be an extra pile in the
Supply, called the Bane pile;". I'd read this as indicating that the bane pile only exists IF "Young Witch" is in the Kingdom. The Black Market DECK is not part of the Kingdom. Hence, no bane pile.

This raises the question, what happens if Tournament is purchased from the Black Market deck? Are the prizes "brought into the game". I would assume yes.

Cheers

Dan
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Black market bane
« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2012, 07:10:47 pm »
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I agree with WanderingWinder here. Consider the following:

Quote
2. Hey, that means Young Witch is in the Black Market deck! What do we do?
—Add an extra Kingdom card pile costing $2 or $3 to the supply.

The Setup rules state "Young Witch: This card causes there to be an extra pile in the
Supply, called the Bane pile;". I'd read this as indicating that the bane pile only exists IF "Young Witch" is in the Kingdom. The Black Market DECK is not part of the Kingdom. Hence, no bane pile.

This raises the question, what happens if Tournament is purchased from the Black Market deck? Are the prizes "brought into the game". I would assume yes.

Cheers

Dan

That's not at question. YW in BM -> you need a bane. The only doubt is if YW is in the black market AND there are no 2/3s left to mark as a bane, given that they're all already in the game or in the BM.

kilgoretrout103

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Re: Black market bane
« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2012, 08:04:38 pm »
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In fact, I am fairly confident that in the rare situation where you have so may cards in the black market, even if not all the cards you own, that there aren't any 2/3s left, or the more common situation where people aren't playing with that many different sets - say I'm playing with just base and cornucopia or something - that by the rules of the game, there's no other interpretation than to have no bane. It's very similar to the 'well, if curses are always available, there must be something to do with them' kind of mindset, where you get people to just come up with weird house rules because that's all that seems to make sense to them, when really that's not what the game does.

Again, I don't really expect this to come up very often. I just don't see how you can possibly materialize your other solutions from the rule book, given that they're just not there.

I actually don't see how you're reaching this conclusion. Let's follow the rules and see what we get:

1. Black Market's in the kingdom! What do we do?
—Make a Black Market deck out of one copy of each Kingdom card not in the Supply. Okay, in they all go.
2. Hey, that means Young Witch is in the Black Market deck! What do we do?
—Add an extra Kingdom card pile costing $2 or $3 to the supply.
3. Okay, where do we find this Kingdom card pile?
—Well, some $2 and $3 cards are in the kingdom already; obviously can't use those, since they wouldn't be "extra".
—Looks like we'll have to choose a $2 or $3 card that's not in the kingdom already.
4. All right, I found one! Wait a minute, there's only nine cards here.
—Oh, right, the tenth one is already in the Black Market deck.
5. Well, Young Witch says we have to add this Kingdom pile to the supply. Kingdom piles have ten cards in them (or eight or twleve if they're Victory cards). So go get that tenth card out of the Black Market deck and put it back in the Kingdom.

Note this argument has interesting consequences in a two-player game if Tunnel or Great Hall is the bane.

This makes perfect sense to me. Nothing in the Cornucopia rules insert or the rules insert that comes with Black Market says you can't take the "extra Kingdom card pile" from the Black Market deck.
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Re: Black market bane
« Reply #24 on: June 11, 2012, 08:45:03 pm »
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More like this:
1) Hey, lets play Dominion! PDEGSCC are out, now to choose the kingdom cards...
2) Ok, Black Market, and the BM deck… and YW in the BM deck… an another pile… presto!
3) Hey, wait, Hamlet i in the BM deck and in th supply, and BM's rules sa cards that are not in the supply… lets put in Lighthouse instead.
4) Hey, why did you open double Chancellor when Sea Hag is on the board?
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