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Author Topic: Dominion 101: The Village  (Read 36393 times)

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WanderingWinder

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Re: Dominion 101: The Village
« Reply #25 on: July 14, 2011, 03:40:49 pm »
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tlloyd, in both those cases, it's more of a consideration, but I think you're probably still better off with silver than village for the most part there. A little bit of testing makes me think that village/pirate ship strats are only marginally better than straight-up big money, and almost every kingdom is going to have something that helps money more than dedicated village/pirate ship. In the other example, it was probably the trashing and cursing attack that led you the victory more than the villages.

ARTjoMS

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Re: Dominion 101: The Village
« Reply #26 on: July 14, 2011, 04:21:01 pm »
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Three base card combo: village, remodel and moat with village/remodel opening is still one of the strongest strategies in dominion.
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Re: Dominion 101: The Village
« Reply #27 on: July 14, 2011, 04:59:32 pm »
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Three base card combo: village, remodel and moat with village/remodel opening is still one of the strongest strategies in dominion.
Would be interesting to know, how this shall work.

This whole discussion fits perfectly to my experiences from some games i played in the last days. There it was possible to gain villages via ironworks etc on the way. This created a completely new situation. If you are able to concentrate your buys on the other cards and get the villages for free, some of this cases where they are normally unnecassary will change.
But i agree that usually one should think twice before buying a village.
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Mean Mr Mustard

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Re: Dominion 101: The Village
« Reply #28 on: July 14, 2011, 08:04:12 pm »
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There is a reason why so many Village types are present in the game as a whole.  Of course I can't say for sure, but it seems there is a high enough ratio of them for at least one to be present on most boards.  With the extensive play testing involved I can't imagine that the village would be such a dominant theme if it was almost always inferior to silver.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Dominion 101: The Village
« Reply #29 on: July 14, 2011, 08:21:09 pm »
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I think the reasons for so many villages are threefold. 1) they're a lot of fun. Everybody likes playing high-action-count decks, while big money-esque strategies can be sorta boring. 2) Village is often useful at some point in the game. It's a very core ability to be able to have. There are lots of more complicated strategies (again, those which people most like) which really need villages to thrive. 3) Most of them have unique and significant differences from the basic village itself. Worker's sets it up with stuff like peddler, conspirator, maybe even gardens - anywhere actions and buys are at a premium. Mining gives the strategic one-shot, which overrides its village value most of the time. Native gives pseudo-trashing and combo-rific big turn potential. Farming gives good filtering, which IMO is more interesting than the village part. Fishing gives you some money, doesn't redraw itself (sometimes good), and gives you a boatload of actions. Walled... basically sucks, but I suppose if you really want to get that torturer chain going... it still basically sucks.

tlloyd

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Re: Dominion 101: The Village
« Reply #30 on: July 15, 2011, 05:11:01 am »
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A little bit of testing makes me think that village/pirate ship strats are only marginally better than straight-up big money, and almost every kingdom is going to have something that helps money more than dedicated village/pirate ship. In the other example, it was probably the trashing and cursing attack that led you the victory more than the villages.

Hard for me to see how a big money strategy can survive against a dedicated pirate ship strategy. Certainly not with 3+ players.

As for the second example, the point is that I couldn't have cursed three or four times per turn without villages. And with Mountebank, the hits keep coming even after the curses are gone, making the extra time to buy all those villages worth it.
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ehunt

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Opening Village
« Reply #31 on: July 15, 2011, 11:06:50 am »
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I've got an exception, I think, to the "don't open village" rule. (I also think it is a decidedly "dominion 107" exception and not a "dominion 101" exception, though, and agree that it's much more important to get across to new players that they should never open village than to discuss fringe cases.) By the way, I'd love to get shot down with actual evidence.

In ambassador games, when the only village on the board is a 4 cost village, I think opening with the 4 cost village and ambassador, then picking up another ambassador as soon as you can on the second round, is superior either to opening ambassador/ambassador or to ambassador/silver.  It would be great to see a simulation on this, but I don't want to program it.

The reasoning behind this is:

1. (advantage over ambassador/ambassador) If there are no 2 or 3 cost village effects, you may well be forced to decide between ambassadoring two coppers and buying a village, because you may not get to 4 coin again for a very long time. This outweighs the risk that your opponent will ambassador twice before you do.
2. (advantage over ambassador/silver) if you decidedly win the ambassador war, you will win the game, irrespective of your opponent's ability to buy five cost actions earlier

The basic strategy is to ambassador as much as possible, always ambassadoring duplicates unless it puts your total copper under 3, then to buy a silver after your deck is razor thin (e.g. is ambassador copper copper ambassador villageclone copper).

In particular, I really like opening walled village/ambassador, which guarantees that you will use both ambassadors on the turn that you draw them. Worker's village is also nice, since the extra buy means you don't have to choose between making your tiny, weak deck a little bit better and buying that extra curse to really rub your opponent's inferior ambassadorial skills in.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Dominion 101: The Village
« Reply #32 on: July 15, 2011, 11:19:17 am »
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Don't think so, for a couple reasons. One, you're overvaluing winning the ambassador war. You can actually lose it and do well more often than you think. Also, you want to get that second ambassador before you get the village. Otherwise, what's it for? And if you're worried you can't hit $4 again any time soon, your deck isn't doing well.
But ambassador is basically my most hated card, and I don't think I'm all that great with it, so I could be wrong. Certainly your strategy seems at least plausible.

ehunt

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Re: Dominion 101: The Village
« Reply #33 on: July 15, 2011, 11:25:59 am »
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" Also, you want to get that second ambassador before you get the village. Otherwise, what's it for? And if you're worried you can't hit $4 again any time soon, your deck isn't doing well."

Sorry, let me clarify my position. I agree with the first two sentences if you replace "that second ambassador" with any other "that second terminal action;" this is the basic reason that opening village is almost always a mistake and the point of your article.

The reason I think ambassador is different is that I think it's absolutely the case that you should ambassador duplicate coppers whenever you draw them, which means, contra the last sentence, that you really can't hope to have 4 at the end of your turn again any time soon (if you do, it's almost certainly because your ambassadors collide at some other point in your deck).
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guided

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Re: Dominion 101: The Village
« Reply #34 on: July 15, 2011, 11:45:54 am »
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If you think early buying power isn't important in Ambassador games, I would very much like to play some Ambassador games with you ;)

I find usually when Ambassador and a Village are on the board there are something like 8 other Kingdom cards available, some of which may even be important! Sometimes Gold can be pretty good too.
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painted_cow

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Re: Dominion 101: The Village
« Reply #35 on: July 15, 2011, 12:10:42 pm »
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Village can be worth an opening buy on certain Torturer boards. I don't know of any other examples where I could say Village is a strong opening.

Also Peddlers :-)

Its funny how most of the strategy threads involve Ambassador sooner or later. Ambassador+Village on board, I like never lose.

On topic: Imo Village is a very good card, since its a cantrip at least. Or just maybe I heavily dislike Silver-BigMoney-crap and love Chaindecks :-)
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guided

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Re: Dominion 101: The Village
« Reply #36 on: July 15, 2011, 12:47:12 pm »
+1

I do not think Village is a good opening just for Peddler. Worker's Village? Maybe. I've certainly tried this, with varying levels of success.
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painted_cow

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Re: Dominion 101: The Village
« Reply #37 on: July 15, 2011, 12:53:27 pm »
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Ofc it depends on the board (oh really), but imo its often better than a silver at the beginning, if you wanna go Peddlers. Add a +buy card and start your Peddler Advantage :-) Workers Village is the deluxe version, but a old school village will also do fine.
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tlloyd

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Re: Dominion 101: The Village
« Reply #38 on: July 15, 2011, 01:22:42 pm »
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Of course, this may depend on how useful Peddlers are for that particular game. If you can Remodel/Expand them or trash them for benefit, then getting the most Peddlers might be key and so the early village could be the right move. On the other hand, if you're just using the Peddlers as a free +$1, then you're probably better off with Silver.
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guided

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Re: Dominion 101: The Village
« Reply #39 on: July 15, 2011, 01:36:36 pm »
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a old school village will also do fine.
I don't agree. I don't think it's strong to open Village with the reasoning that it might be $2 plus 1 card toward the purchase of one and only one specific card that is also not very good in the early game. Best reasonably likely scenario: You open Village and another action card, play both of them at turn 3 or 4, ending with exactly $4, and you buy a Peddler. If you have more than $4 you should probably buy something else. If you can't get Peddlers to $4 you should probably buy something else.

I'm not seeing anything that convinces me this is better than opening with buying power (or some other useful action like Lookout) and getting Villages later if you legitimately need them to play an abundance of terminals. I'd probably be inclined to open Pawn or Hamlet ahead of Village if I was planning to buy Peddlers - quick access to +buy is my main consideration when considering Peddler strategies - and I don't think Pawn or Hamlet is likely to be a particularly strong opening either on most boards.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2011, 01:43:07 pm by guided »
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painted_cow

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Re: Dominion 101: The Village
« Reply #40 on: July 15, 2011, 02:06:52 pm »
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Of course, this may depend on how useful Peddlers are for that particular game. If you can Remodel/Expand them or trash them for benefit, then getting the most Peddlers might be key and so the early village could be the right move. On the other hand, if you're just using the Peddlers as a free +$1, then you're probably better off with Silver.

You dont need such cards like Remodel/Expand/Bishop etc. to make Peddlers useful. Imo they are just icing on the cake.

a old school village will also do fine.
I don't agree. I don't think it's strong to open Village with the reasoning that it might be $2 plus 1 card toward the purchase of one and only one specific card that is also not very good in the early game. Best reasonably likely scenario: You open Village and another action card, play both of them at turn 3 or 4, ending with exactly $4, and you buy a Peddler. If you have more than $4 you should probably buy something else. If you can't get Peddlers to $4 you should probably buy something else.

In most Peddler setup you dont neccessarely need to get to 5 or 6. Focus on getting enough cantrips or better (Lookout is of better than village. It should just show, that a village/cantrip is really important for getting Peddlers). I dont care, if I only get to 3$, then just buy another cantrip. Some turns later it will work and reward you with like 2-3 Peddlers. In Peddler setups cards like Silver/Gold are overvalued imo. Just make sure to draw most of the deck in each turn and you will do fine without them. Pawn+Hamlet are ofc better, as I said above.

If I see a setup with Peddlers, a +buy and some sort of cheap cantrup and my opponents opens with Silver I feel like "okay, gg dude...another 8:2 Peddler advantage win". 
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Dominion 101: The Village
« Reply #41 on: July 15, 2011, 03:19:08 pm »
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Painted_Cow, I don't understand how you can say that. I'd very much like to play some Village+Peddler games with you. Also, luck is such a huge thing, I don't understand how you can 'almost never lose' on ANY board. With village and ambassador cards, CouncilRoom shows that you've lost 4 of your last 16. So you've done well, but not that much better than your ~2/3 overall win rate.

HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Dominion 101: The Village
« Reply #42 on: July 15, 2011, 05:18:09 pm »
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First, I want to thank you for the article. The ensuing discussion is some of the most interesting stuff on this forum. I have a couple comments I want to contribute to the discussion.

The answer is opportunity cost. Basically every time you buy a village, you've wasted at least $3 and a buy; you could have bought, if nothing else, silver. And most decks need silver early on to ramp up to buying 5s and 6s and eventually provinces.
This should probably be bolded or something, as it's the most important point in the article, and explains the exceptions people are mentioning. In the remodel into village/smithy or the mass peddler strategy, you *don't* need silver early on to ramp up to buying 5s and 6s.

In the "first game" set, the 5s are really weak (market and mine), so it's fine to live in the 3-4 range and go for village/smithy. In this case, the silver doesn't help that much, since you can get to 3-4 even without silver. So even though the village may do nothing for the first couple shuffles, it's not like the opportunity cost was really that great. Then the fact that you started buying villages early allows you to reach critical density of them sooner (around turn 8-9), at which point you can draw your whole deck to buy a gold or two, and then go green without ever needing silver. It's worth noting that while pure village/smithy is pretty bad as you mention, this type of strategy becomes much better in the presence of trashing, +buys, and/or gains, as highlighted in this example.

Similarly, silvers don't really help in peddler setups. Given that you have at least an extra buy, any cantrip is worth $2*(number of buys) for the purposes of buying peddlers, which is what you're going for anyway. Your goal is to get at least half of the peddlers by turn 7-8, at which point you'll have enough money from actions to go straight into gold and green without silver.

I still have a *very* hard time convincing myself to buy a village when I don't have enough terminals for it to be immediately useful, but there are definitely times when it should be considered -- specifically when the opportunity cost is actually quite low, and the potential future benefit is great.

And a note on walled village: The special aspect of walled village is that it's really not meant for these typical draw-your-whole-deck village/smithy-type strategies. (In these strategies, it's basically the same as a regular village.) The special thing they do is sit in your hand until you get a terminal collision, which they resolve. They are for when you have too many terminals and want to avoid collision. Here they work much better than regular villages, since you don't need to draw the village along with the collision -- you already have it in your hand, waiting.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2011, 05:27:32 pm by HiveMindEmulator »
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painted_cow

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Re: Dominion 101: The Village
« Reply #43 on: July 15, 2011, 05:56:07 pm »
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Painted_Cow, I don't understand how you can say that. I'd very much like to play some Village+Peddler games with you. Also, luck is such a huge thing, I don't understand how you can 'almost never lose' on ANY board. With village and ambassador cards, CouncilRoom shows that you've lost 4 of your last 16. So you've done well, but not that much better than your ~2/3 overall win rate.

Hey WanderingWinder, I looked it up myself now and it feels pretty much the way it felt when playing: Village+Ambassador: 14 wins : 3 losses. Village+Peddler 8:2. This is much better than my overall winrate.

I know, that this is not a 10:0 perfect record, but as you said there is much luck involved. Therefor I still feel really good on any board with Village+Ambassador.

I dont say, that Village is a perfect card in any Peddler deck (like Market, Workers Village, Pawn etc), only that it is better than Silver in the beginning.

Overall your article is quite good, I just wanted to point these extra ideas out. Under most circumstances Villages is a Bad Opener, but it gets better afterwards. I could throw a "undervalued" on it :-)
« Last Edit: July 15, 2011, 06:16:41 pm by painted_cow »
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tlloyd

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Re: Dominion 101: The Village
« Reply #44 on: July 16, 2011, 01:49:44 pm »
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Of course, this may depend on how useful Peddlers are for that particular game. If you can Remodel/Expand them or trash them for benefit, then getting the most Peddlers might be key and so the early village could be the right move. On the other hand, if you're just using the Peddlers as a free +$1, then you're probably better off with Silver.

You dont need such cards like Remodel/Expand/Bishop etc. to make Peddlers useful. Imo they are just icing on the cake.


Without those cards, Peddlers are just icing. And if you bypass silvers and golds for villages just so that you can get Peddlers, then you've got all icing and no cake. So unless there's a way to take advantage of the Peddler's $8 cost, you should really pick them up only as icing on the cake--i.e. when you've reduced the Peddler to $0 or $2 and have a spare buy.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2011, 04:14:27 am by tlloyd »
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timchen

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Re: Dominion 101: The Village
« Reply #45 on: July 16, 2011, 05:56:10 pm »
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Interesting, as I found the most common situation where village is desired is that when deck thinning is possible. Without deck thinning village is usually marginal unless in highly uncommon setups(ie, village+smithy+remodel). That is, u only get a village in mid game when you have $3-$4 but not interested in yet another silver.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Dominion 101: The Village
« Reply #46 on: July 17, 2011, 10:24:03 am »
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I basically agree with that timchen.

guided

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Re: Dominion 101: The Village
« Reply #47 on: July 18, 2011, 12:13:23 am »
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Hey WanderingWinder, I looked it up myself now and it feels pretty much the way it felt when playing: Village+Ambassador: 14 wins : 3 losses. Village+Peddler 8:2. This is much better than my overall winrate.
I looked up your record last week, and while you seem to be very good in both Village games and Peddler games as a general rule, there wasn't much support for the idea of opening Village in Peddler games. I only saw 3 Village openings from you, and only 2 games (one won, one lost) where the other player didn't also open Village.


edit: Oh and here's one where you opened Silver/Silver and won against somebody who opened with Village ;) http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110526-164117-79031150.html
« Last Edit: July 18, 2011, 12:29:47 am by guided »
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painted_cow

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Re: Dominion 101: The Village
« Reply #48 on: July 18, 2011, 09:06:56 am »
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I looked up your record last week, and while you seem to be very good in both Village games and Peddler games as a general rule, there wasn't much support for the idea of opening Village in Peddler games. I only saw 3 Village openings from you, and only 2 games (one won, one lost) where the other player didn't also open Village.


edit: Oh and here's one where you opened Silver/Silver and won against somebody who opened with Village ;) http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110526-164117-79031150.html

As I already said, the Village is far from perfect opener, even in Peddler games. Often there are bettern cantrips/trashers, etc. Therfor I myself open with Village really seldom, when it it available at all. I only think, that it should work better with other actions than generic Silver for Peddlers.

When I looked up my Peddler+Village games I were pretty sure, that someone would quote this game with double Silver Opening :-) This game is very old imo, a date on the logs would be good for this. Also Festival+Library is more dominant is this setup, therfor double silver.

But guided, you are absolutely right, that some logs cant give much support on these things, cause they are too old, to be played good by me or they lagg the combination of these cards in the openings.

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WanderingWinder

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Re: Dominion 101: The Village
« Reply #49 on: July 18, 2011, 10:26:13 am »
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You can tell what date a game was played by looking in the URL. That particular game was from 26 May of this year, less than two months ago.
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