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[Obi Wan Bonogi]

Is this a settled matter or still up for discussion regarding future events?

[Kirian]

Is Jay the guy that insists tournaments be 3 player?

I believe he wanted 4 player and DXV fought for 3p.

DXV believes that only 2P is competitive and still had to fight hard to bargain Jay down to 3P.  (Jay here is Jay Tummelson, CEO(?) of Rio Grande Games.)

DXV believes that 2 players is the *most* skill-based number of players, obv., but there's always skill.

DXV did not fight Jay at all to get it to be 3 players. Jay just immediately went to 3, though preferring 4.

Fair enough, I was misremembering, and couldn't find the other thread.

[Rav950]

I think the 4p preference is more a matter of logistics than anything else. To accommodate 12 players in 3p, you'd need 4 setups. In 4p, you'd need 3. Its fewer Dominion sets to supply to accommodate the same number of people. If players are forced to sit due to lack of seat availability, that exacerbates the issue.

While playing Dominion online doesn't have the same problems, it is a very significant consideration for live tournaments.

[Personman]

For what it's worth (I'm currently a finalist in the online qualifier) I utterly loathe 4p and 3p, and I know that other top players feel the same. Of course they are still skill based, but the game is so short that there is no time to do most things that might demonstrate skill, and turn order.. well, just look at the councilroom stats for turn order. I've run simulations, and with straight big money, first player wins nearly 50% of the time in 3 and 4p games (I think it might have actually been >50% for 3p).

It is a logistical problem, and that's why all serious play should be done online! This has the added advantage of enabling other features that are appropriate for competitive play, like a point counter. (This paragraph brought to you by my own personal opinions that I am well aware are not held by all community members. My primary point stands aside from this.)

[Rav950]

For what it's worth (I'm currently a finalist in the online qualifier) I utterly loathe 4p and 3p, and I know that other top players feel the same. Of course they are still skill based, but the game is so short that there is no time to do most things that might demonstrate skill, and turn order.. well, just look at the councilroom stats for turn order. I've run simulations, and with straight big money, first player wins nearly 50% of the time in 3 and 4p games (I think it might have actually been >50% for 3p).

It is a logistical problem, and that's why all serious play should be done online! This has the added advantage of enabling other features that are appropriate for competitive play, like a point counter. (This paragraph brought to you by my own personal opinions that I am well aware are not held by all community members. My primary point stands aside from this.)

I have no idea how Jay will come down on this for certain, I'm looking forward to meeting with him in 2 weeks.

[Davio]

I don't loathe 3p games, in fact, in real life, I prefer them to 2p games.

It's not like all strategy goes right out the window when you include more than 2 players. You just have to adjust and you can't control all of your opponents and the ending any more like in 2p. The PPR becomes very hard to observe and you can never force the other guy NOT to take the PP because it could let #3 win over you.

In fact, I've had it happen in a game in the Dutch championships a year ago that I was duking it out with the player to my left and the opponent to my right bought the PP, letting me take the win with the last one.

You just have to concentrate on maximizing your own VP to get yourself in the best possible position for sudden game ends. Like regular Dominion, you don't want to start out buying Estates, but you can't wait forever either.

[Rav950]

Good discussions with Jay and finalists yesterday, hammering out proposal details with Jay. So far I think we're both on the same page in terms of how the qualifier series will operate, and there will be opportunity (possibly more than one) for online participation.

I've been advised of the controversies that arose during the finals here, but it sounds like it was largely an unforeseen condition that could have been corrected early on if it was taken into account and shouldn't be an issue going forward.

I'm really looking forward to developing the qualifier series and working with this and other Dominion playing communities to help it become the best experience possible.

[questioneer]

I recently gave Jay my rules and procedures of how we do it in the Detroit Qualifier which went extremely well.  He might not have looked at his email yet so maybe ask him to check it.

I think you will find these very helpful.  I believe people should adopt a similar system and make it universal.  Sooner or later, its best to come up with some Official Tourny rules and such.

BTW we are moving the Qualifier from MichiCon to U-Con in the SE Mich area.  They are the largest Con in the state and have the best ad/website reach in the state as well.  We're very excited to see this particular Qualifier grow to one of the best.  U-Con is held a little earlier than MichiCon though (November versus June) so we may be advertising pretty soon- hopefully at GenCon this year.

[Beyond Awesome]

I agree. Having official tourney rules makes things a lot better and more fair.

[rickert]

As someone who Rio Grande had assigned to the tournament last year at GenCon to help with card rulings and tournament management, I will say that every decision made in that tournament was for the benefit of the entire tourney even if it meant one person felt unfairly treated.

[Rav950]

Just an update for the sake of an update, Jay and I are revisiting this after GenCon; he's had too much going on to put much time or thought into this since the finals. So hopefully more to talk about after this week.

[whaleyland]

I agree. Having official tourney rules makes things a lot better and more fair.

Do you have a link to the 2012 Tournament rules? I have the 2011 rules but wanted to see how the expansion set arrangement has changed since last year. Next year, I assume, will be the big change with all the planned expansions presumably released by then, but I'd still like to see this year's setup to modify my Dominion Annotated Rules properly in the Tournament section. Thanks!

[Rav950]

Unfortunately, I haven't been able to get any word from Jay for a few weeks now. Possibly he's busy with other business. I'll continue trying to reach him.

[Rav950]

Unfortunately, I haven't been able to get any word from Jay for a few weeks now. Possibly he's busy with other business. I'll continue trying to reach him.

I'm not terribly optimistic at this point. I think Jay has pressed ahead with his own plans for 2013. He might have had a better offer, or might be satisfied with existing turnout. Anyhow, good luck to the DS Forum players in 2013!