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WanderingWinder

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Thief
« on: June 09, 2012, 11:23:39 am »
+6

(Note: This article is dealing with 2-player dominion. Thief is a lot better, and in many ways a different animal, in the multi-player game; as a quick note, a concept like thief-gardens is a real thing there. And it keeps getting better with more players - while generally still not being super-strong).

Thief is a card that consistently gets tossed up as one of the very worst kingdom cards in 2-player dominion. It was voted THE worst $4 card in Qvist's rankings. According to CouncilRoom, it is one of the least-bought cards, it has the WORST 'win rate with' and one of the best 'win rate without'.
And you know, it is really bad. It sucks.

BUT, it's not SO bad. I certainly don't think it's the worst card in the game, or the worst card at its price-point even (we're looking at you, scout, in both instances). And there are situations where it's handy, or even downright good. Let's explore.


A little bit about the card first. Noble Brigand looks just like an improved version - and largely, it is just that, a much-improved version. The exceptions are when you can steal some more exotic treasures - platinum, cache, venture, bank, and especially something like fool's gold or Ill-gotten gains. These give thief a bit of a leg-up. But hey, it's still not great without some major help.
At what point in the game do you want thief? Well, that's sorta tricky. The problem is that buy thief, reshuffle thief into deck, play thief and steal nice treasure, reshuffle that treasure into your deck, play that treasure... well, it takes quite a while. A lot longer than just buying the treasure.So you need to steal some multiple things to make it worth it. Which means buy it early. But on the other hand, you need to actually hit those good treasures, and at the beginning of the game... you're coming up copper an awful lot. To answer the question, it depends on why you want the thief. Which brings us to...

But in which games do you want thief at all? (It's not many).
First of all, let's say the board is really bad. I mean REALLY bad. I mean like, there is nothing going on, you're buying... literally big money. Thief helps you out here. Thief+big money is better than big money. And you want the thief... right away. You may come up copper a good bit early, but a) trashing their copper is bad, but not THAT bad in pure BM; keep in mind that their economy is largely copper-based at this point; b)if you are able to snag an early silver, it's pretty massive against a BM opponent. It helps you a good bit, but you have to look at it as an attack, too. But okay, these boards are super rare...

Probably the best-known case of good thieves is in super-trimmed money decks. If your opponent has chapeled down to the point where silver and gold are a significant portion of their deck, they are ripe for attack - it can cripple their economies, which are dependent on only a few cards (meaning that stealing one is a big blow), and you get a nice benefit in the process. Of course, it's very rare to get a good opponent caught in chapel-big money...

More likely, you have a mediocre-ish board with some pretty good alternate VP. Let's say duke. Thief is pretty excellent here, because it gives you longevity, which you need for the long game, and because you both actually want those coppers. Here is a game with Duke and Silk Road where I use thief to good effect. Here's another one where I use thief to help out with a Harem/Silk Road strategy.

Perhaps the most important role for thief is attacking coppers in those rare situations where they are very important. If your opponent is using moneylender for some form of big money, this is an even better situation for thief than chapel-thinned decks. Moreover, thief can really eat into aptohecary-based strategies and some coppersmith-based strategies, and presumably counting house-based strategies. Again, this doesn't come up that often, but you need to keep your eyes on thief when those strategies are around, because it can be a very hard counter.

Finally, thief can be useful in engines where some treasures are still important. My #1 exhibit for this article is this game against Marin. Both of us build up nice engines, and then we both get thieves. Now, the thieves don't look like they do THAT much (though they are mildly helpful), but their big function here is to limit the treasures either of us want to buy. In an engine like this, where you can really draw everything, you often want to expand, just a little bit, your buying power with some treasures. But the prospect of thief is going to put slight dampers on that. In this situation, the stolen treasure helps them, too, and helps them immediately. Of course, you don't have the greatest chances to hit, but it can be a strong consideration anyway - and one both of us saw fit to go for.

Works with:
Opponents who have very few actions
Opponents' trashing, particularly copper-trashing
Alternate VP
Copper-philic strategies

Doesn't work with:
Virtual money
Most actions, which are better.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2012, 01:06:24 pm by WanderingWinder »
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ycz6

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Re: Thief
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2012, 12:56:53 pm »
+2

Here's another one where I beat rrenaud using a smattering of generally terrible cards, including thief, while at the same time accumulating all 10 curses from him...
I think you linked the wrong game, you didn't buy any thieves in that one.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Thief
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2012, 01:06:42 pm »
0

Here's another one where I beat rrenaud using a smattering of generally terrible cards, including thief, while at the same time accumulating all 10 curses from him...
I think you linked the wrong game, you didn't buy any thieves in that one.
Yes, curious....
Switched examples there.

blueblimp

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Re: Thief
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2012, 01:57:12 pm »
0

Couple things I'd like some opinions about in the article (positive or negative):

When is it worth getting Thief in a Fool's Gold game? It seems definitely good if the opponent is trashing a lot, because then you'll hit FG pretty often. But is it any good if the opponent is not trashing?

Also, is it worth keeping Thief pins in mind? I'm thinking of situations where your opponent goes for a treasure strategy, you go for an engine (ideally with King's Court support), but there is no +buy or other slowing attacks. Even once your engine is going, you can't possibly buy the VP fast enough to out-race, so you must shut down your opponent's buying ability with multiple Thief plays.
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dondon151

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Re: Thief
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2012, 02:02:15 pm »
0

Also, is it worth keeping Thief pins in mind? I'm thinking of situations where your opponent goes for a treasure strategy, you go for an engine (ideally with King's Court support), but there is no +buy or other slowing attacks.

I think that you'd really need +buy to build an engine that can pin with Thief. Preferably some weak +buy card like Woodcutter. Thief pin engines are really slow to build up, need a lot of support, and don't tend to cripple your opponent immediately. You need to be able to get started when your opponent has less than 4 Provinces, otherwise there's still a chance that he can fight back and win on points. It's perfectly reasonable that your opponent can squeeze out that 4th Province, and maybe even get lucky enough for a 5th.
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blueblimp

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Re: Thief
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2012, 02:07:26 pm »
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The thing is, if there is +buy, surely it's usually going to be better to just try to get a lot of money and megaturn rather than trying to trash all your opponent's treasure, since it takes a long time to complete the pin. I don't know if I've ever gotten a Thief pin to work, basically for this reason.
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kn1tt3r

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Re: Thief
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2012, 02:08:56 pm »
+3

Good article overall, but I think especially for Thief it is important to really talk about multiplayer and not just mention it in the introduction. I mean, it would just be a paragraph more and it's really important for this specific card - so why not put it into the article?
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dondon151

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Re: Thief
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2012, 02:15:25 pm »
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The thing is, if there is +buy, surely it's usually going to be better to just try to get a lot of money and megaturn rather than trying to trash all your opponent's treasure, since it takes a long time to complete the pin. I don't know if I've ever gotten a Thief pin to work, basically for this reason.

Well, this is assuming that your opponent isn't building the same engine that you are...

It's also pretty hard to megaturn with a money based strategy. You'd need pretty ample support, too, and if those cards are in the kingdom, then a Thief pin probably isn't viable.

As an example, I recall one multiplayer game where I went straight BM with Watchtower, Wharf, and Bank, and annihilated the piles before my opponent could get a Bazaar, Wharf, Thief engine running. That's an obvious losing strategy. On the other hand, in the regional qualifier, there was a game where I would have come out on top after using a Thief + Saboteur pin if I didn't hit the time limit for the round. In that game my opponents ignored Minions (I have no idea why; let's just pretend that they didn't exist because they didn't help me very much, either) and I whittled down their decks with TR-Lab for support and Woodcutter for the +buy.

The one other thing that you can consider is that if you're planning on using the Thief to pin your opponents, you don't need to buy treasure, either.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Thief
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2012, 02:16:29 pm »
0

Good article overall, but I think especially for Thief it is important to really talk about multiplayer and not just mention it in the introduction. I mean, it would just be a paragraph more and it's really important for this specific card - so why not put it into the article?
Because it wouldn't be a paragraph more - it would be an entirely separate article. Actually, it would be multiple more articles. One for each number of players. And I don't feel qualified to write such an article.

chwhite

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Re: Thief
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2012, 02:29:27 pm »
+1

I no longer claim that Thief is always and completely useless, but I still do think it's the worst card in the game.  The big thing for me when it comes to Thief versus Scout is that Thief is terminal.  So it has a much higher bar to pass for you to actually buy it- Scout can be a "why the hell not" pickup if you've got an engine and you're greening and you have an extra $4, but you always need to watch out for your terminal slots, so Thief needs to be more proactive and useful to just reach the same level of quality.  There are certainly going to be games where Thief is not necessarily a negative-value buy, if the board dictates engine that still needs Gold for instance, but the chance that it can justify itself over the other terminals out is almost always so slim. 

And the presence of virtual +Coin just kills Thief dead.  (Though Fool's Gold does give it a huge boost- using Thief as a counter to Fool's Gold rushes is, I bet, going to be by far its most consistent good use in 2p).

A couple possibly-relevant games:

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120502-145759-ba8210b2.html : Here's a good example of trying to use Thief as a pin card, where NinjaBus builds a big engine with Thief-KC-Woodcutter and other stuff that attempts to take away all my cash before I can cross the 43 (actually 47 with Great Hall) point threshold.  It... doesn't quite work, but it was a valiant effort.  I was forced to conclude that Thief pins are at least theoretically possible, but they're so so hard to set up.

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110706-175505-0d1c2520.html : Here's my canonical example of "Multiplayer isn't good enough reason to go Thief".  I get four Golds stolen and still win going away with Vault-BM.  Granted, Vault does work as a counter, but it still relies on having Gold in your deck to make Province.

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120525-030018-fcfe67fe.html : And here's the one and only one time Thief was actually a crucial part of my strategy.  There was Colony, AND there was enough Actions, AND all our Coppers were gone, AND there was Bishop, which likes to crunch stuff, so getting it for a 20% or so shot at sniping Platina was actually worth it.

You should probably add an example of Thief in Fool's Gold rush games, it's one of the two situations that Thief is genuinely and consistently strong (the other being multiplayer Gardens of course).
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Thief
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2012, 02:41:03 pm »
0

Couple things I'd like some opinions about in the article (positive or negative):

When is it worth getting Thief in a Fool's Gold game? It seems definitely good if the opponent is trashing a lot, because then you'll hit FG pretty often. But is it any good if the opponent is not trashing?

Also, is it worth keeping Thief pins in mind? I'm thinking of situations where your opponent goes for a treasure strategy, you go for an engine (ideally with King's Court support), but there is no +buy or other slowing attacks. Even once your engine is going, you can't possibly buy the VP fast enough to out-race, so you must shut down your opponent's buying ability with multiple Thief plays.
Fool's gold: not without trashing. In the early going, you really want to pound those fool's gold buys. And so, you can steal some FG, but it's not SO probable. And the copper trashing you give them is relatively a bigger deal. If they're trashing though, then yeah, it's good. Not the greatest thing ever, but good.

Thief pins: They can come up in some exotic cases, primarily with KC somehow. But I find that it's usually not that big a deal. I mean, if I can build such an engine, I usually go for such an engine. Because usually, in order to get an effective pin, you need something a la KC. If I'm so without virtual coin, a big money deck (and I'm assuming you have draw here, because you've built an engine) will be too quick generally. And so, sometimes, the thief can be helpful, like in my game with Marin, but I don't think a full-blown pin comes up all so often. Also keep in mind that such engines are often the kinds of decks where you don't want loads of treasure. So you might not want those silvers you get, which really hurts thief's value.

-Stef-

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Re: Thief
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2012, 03:07:36 pm »
+2

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120116-141618-00fdd73c.html

That's an example of a "sort of thief pin". At a board that's not too strong I want to build a Scrying Pool engine, and my opponent doesn't. He gets quite some provinces before I start doing anything, and at that point can't really rush him for the remaining provinces. Fortunately, a thief a turn (or 2, 3, 4) slows him down enough to make up with bishop. This would never have worked if he went for some sort of golden deck with bishop himself, but then again that would have allowed my Pool engine to be up & running a lot sooner.

However, I think this needs a pretty rare set of conditions...
1) some engine possibility, but not that good (see 4). lousy +actions, lousy +buy, lousy +draw
(well at some point the pool is uber draw but that takes time)
2) throne room / KC
3) Scrying Pool / spy / oracle already in the deck
4) an opponent going for BM
5) an alternate VP / saboteur
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jomini

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Re: Thief
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2012, 04:32:55 pm »
+1

The only time I've had good luck with thief pins is working with Spy, Oracle, or Scrying pool. It did seem odd to me to see a thief article that doesn't mention those as possible enablers. If your opponent doesn't have virtual cash and you can discard the dross you'd rather not steal; you have much better odds of hitting the important cards (like plat). Is there a particular reason you don't mention the most likely enablers here? I admit I rarely play thief enough to know, and it is pretty rare for me to say "hey I could go spy/thief".
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axlemn

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Re: Thief
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2012, 09:26:33 pm »
0

I have never successfully employed such a Spy/Thief strategy, but I've lost to its variants before.  I don't remember if any of them were straight up thief-spy, though.  Does buying spies over silver actually work in single-player? 

Most actions, which are better.

Best line.  I like how we're in a phase where most of the recently written articles are about cards that fit that description. 
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lespeutere

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Re: Thief
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2012, 10:22:48 am »
+1

I agree with -Stef- and jomini spying cards should be mentioned as enablers.
And then I'd like to add a little comment concerning the structure:
When you start writing
But hey, it's still not great without some major help.
I would've expected the section about in what games you may be wanting to buy it coming here. Instead you go on with when in a game you want to get it. This should be changed somehow (reversing paragraphs might work already) imho.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Thief
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2012, 02:23:21 pm »
0

I agree with -Stef- and jomini spying cards should be mentioned as enablers.
And then I'd like to add a little comment concerning the structure:
When you start writing
But hey, it's still not great without some major help.
I would've expected the section about in what games you may be wanting to buy it coming here. Instead you go on with when in a game you want to get it. This should be changed somehow (reversing paragraphs might work already) imho.
Actually, this is before the 'when in the game do you want it' section. The reason I'm okay with the way it is, because I do think it's important to emphasize what you are emphasizing is the '(It's not many)' answer after my 'in what games do you want it' section.

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Re: Thief
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2012, 03:20:25 pm »
0

Here's my one memorable game where Thief really shined. I fell behind early in the Fool's Gold / City / Province race, but was able to Thief away key Fool's Golds to slow down Rabid enough for the win: http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120513-062243-52f95e3d.html
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Re: Thief
« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2012, 04:21:52 pm »
0

Another Thief pin: http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111213-213545-d55615f1.html

It's pretty rare that they're worthwhile, though. 
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