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yuma

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Euro 2012
« on: June 08, 2012, 11:29:25 am »
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So Euro 2012 is about to kick off? Anyone as excited as I am? How do our European f.DS friends feel about their countries chances of winning?
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theory

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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2012, 11:58:07 am »
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Reaction of those in Group A:



A lot more here
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Captain_Frisk

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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2012, 12:15:45 pm »
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Is this how I do it?



I know I'm an ugly american, but football?  My second favorite sport.
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Davio

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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2012, 01:02:03 pm »
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We Europeans never get what's so exciting about American sports and vice versa.
Snooker vs. Pool, Volleyball vs. Basketball and of course, real Football vs. American (fake) Football.

Kidding aside, I love football and I'm an amateur player myself with the local beer team. I used to play in the first reserves, but then I got lazy and drank too much. GG college.

I'm very glad it has finally begun, because I was pretty bored by all the talk shows who were running out of topics.


About the current game: I like the Polish squad, they're playing pretty decent attacking football and are deservedly in the lead. The red card (second yellow) for the Greek player was a bit harsh. His two offences may have totalled one yellow card, not two, in my opinion. Onwards with the second half!

Oh, and I'm a supporter of team Orange of course, being Dutch, but I fancy the German team's chances this year. They're playing "Dutch" football which is sometimes a pleasure to watch and are always strong on tourneys.
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yuma

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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2012, 01:08:31 pm »
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About the current game: I like the Polish squad, they're playing pretty decent attacking football and are deservedly in the lead. The red card (second yellow) for the Greek player was a bit harsh. His two offences may have totalled one yellow card, not two, in my opinion. Onwards with the second half!

Very harsh indeed... Glad the game is on since Isotropic is down. Although I imagine I wouldn't play very well if I was watching a game at the same time, so maybe it is for the best.
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cherdano

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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2012, 01:13:17 pm »
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I wasn't that impressed by Poland in the first half, it was just too gad a game with many unnecessary lost balls on both sides. Maybe I should give their pressue on Greece more credit though.
The Greek coverage on the first goal - wow.
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olneyce

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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2012, 01:28:04 pm »
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That's one of the worst sending-offs I've ever seen. The first wasn't even a foul and the second was barely so.

I'm rooting against Greece, but that's just ridiculously harsh.

And now Greece has a penalty.  Preposterous!
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cherdano

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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2012, 01:35:10 pm »
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That's one of the worst sending-offs I've ever seen. The first wasn't even a foul and the second was barely so.
You mean the first yellow card? Was clearly a foul I thought, he had his elbow out and was pushing the Polish guy down. The second was very harsh, though if he gives a foul he is pretty much forced to give a card too (preventing a break with a foul).
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olneyce

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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2012, 01:43:59 pm »
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That's one of the worst sending-offs I've ever seen. The first wasn't even a foul and the second was barely so.
You mean the first yellow card? Was clearly a foul I thought, he had his elbow out and was pushing the Polish guy down. The second was very harsh, though if he gives a foul he is pretty much forced to give a card too (preventing a break with a foul).
If the first is a foul then there is a foul on virtually every single contested header in the entire game. Which, to be fair, might actually be true.  But the game isn't called that way.

To make something like that a yellow is just crazy.
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cherdano

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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2012, 01:49:34 pm »
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I think this is usually called (when the ref sees it obviously). Otherwise every contested header would become a pushing match!
I don't think this one was a yellow card by itself, but it was one foul too many.

I agree it's very very harsh, but if you make silly fouls you do risk getting cards.
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Davio

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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2012, 01:52:23 pm »
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I've seen many worse opening games.

At least this one had a lot of excitement! The football in the second half was appaling. I guess the Polish' inexperience showed and it cost them the 3 points. Greece could've even won if they had scored the penalty, that would've been something.

So, a useless draw which doesn't really help either team. Given that Russia is probably the best team in their group, they have to look to the Czech republic for a win. Good luck with that.
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lespeutere

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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2012, 02:38:15 pm »
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Well, it cost them 2 points.. ;-)
I found both teams making surprisingly many technical mistakes. I thought Poland would win it.

On 'my' team, I hear a lot of Dutch people showing their respect for the German squad - but never without mentioning they're finally playing as nicely as the Dutch used to once when they invented their 'lekker voetbal'.. ;-)
I'm betting on the Netherlands winning group B, partly because my favourite Bundesliga team seems to lose whenever I bet on them. So, I'm hoping for us to participate in the final, seeing the Netherlands, Spain (of course) and France (as a surprise) as the main competitors.
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Lekkit

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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2012, 03:35:46 pm »
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Uhm... I'm not really excited about this. However it seems like most of Sweden is, though.
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2012, 03:42:15 pm »
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Uhm... I'm not really excited about this. However it seems like most of Sweden is, though.

Same. I'm British and couldn't give a <insert favourite expletive here>.

It's like the Queen's Jubilee all over again... And then there's the Olympics to look forward to. Bad year to be British.
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Davio

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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2012, 03:44:55 pm »
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It's funny that the German and Dutch team have the same assets and problems.

Their strong suits are all in the midfield and the front.
We have Sneijder, Van der Vaart, Robben, Huntelaar and Van Persie, they have Özil, Khedira, Kroos, Schweinsteiger and Gomez.

But no one wants to be a defender anymore in the Netherlands. Now that our main central defender Mathijsen is injured, we have to look to a rookie who has played only in the Dutch competition which, barring the top 5 teams or so, is a pretty poor competition. And I think Badstuber, Metzelder and Mertesacker only get to wear a German jersey just because they are long and strong.

So it will interesting to see how these pair up. A crazy score like 5-5 may even be possible!


Sweden always had the problem that it had just too few superstars. Now they have the crazy Ibrahimovic, but he's pretty much on his own. I always liked Källstrom, but I wonder why I never see him in any Champions League games with a really good club...


Bad year to be British.
But a great year to love sports!  ;D ;D ;D
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Lekkit

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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2012, 04:11:18 pm »
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And then there's the Olympics to look forward to.

At least there's beach volleyball and fencing. ;) I fell you, though. Next year we will have a lot of merry people coming here for the Eurovision. Not really looking forward to that.
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yuma

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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2012, 05:59:50 pm »
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So, a useless draw which doesn't really help either team. Given that Russia is probably the best team in their group, they have to look to the Czech republic for a win. Good luck with that.

Russia looked really good. Alan Dzagoev is a great talent and Roman Pavlyuchenko's goal was the best I've seen in a while. Fun day of soccer, but I am hoping tomorrow will be even better.
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lespeutere

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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2012, 06:00:23 pm »
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And I think Badstuber, Metzelder and Mertesacker only get to wear a German jersey just because they are long and strong.

Gotta disagree to here.
Metzelder didn't have any chance to get a spot in this year's team.
Mertesacker is long but doesn't play like he is. Still he is overrated, in my opinion.
Badstuber is pretty good at playing the opening passes, doing that in Munich alot.
The best German halfback imho is Hummels but he's got the problem he's never transferring his incredible performances from Dortmund to the national team. Plus his style of game opening conflicts with Jogi Löw's attitude on game opening (or at least Löw seems to think that).
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Young Nick

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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2012, 06:37:21 pm »
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This thread makes me a) wish I followed soccer (football) more and b) wish that people cared about the NBA anywhere near as much as they do about soccer (football). I mean, it's a great sport to watch and play, but basketball is better in every respect, except for the amount of dead ball/commercial time. I would think there would be more APBR-metrics junkies seeing as both basketball and Dominion have so much information to analyze from a purely statistical perspective.

But don't let my griping distract this excellent sports discussion.

But if you are an NBA fan, please comment.
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theory

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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2012, 06:39:20 pm »
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There are definitely hardcore NBA stat junkies, but I'm afraid that the sports-followers and boardgameplayers demographics don't overlap that much.  And if you are interested in that I'd highly recommend this New York Times article.  (FYI Battier now plays on the Heat.)
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Young Nick

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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2012, 11:39:23 pm »
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There are definitely hardcore NBA stat junkies, but I'm afraid that the sports-followers and boardgameplayers demographics don't overlap that much.  And if you are interested in that I'd highly recommend this New York Times article.  (FYI Battier now plays on the Heat.)

This is a fantastic article, and one that I have read many times over. What I meant to say (and now I see how it was a bit confusing) was that I wish there were more basketball-savvy posters here on f.ds.  I was hoping there would be because a) basketball is so popular here and b) because both games (the sport and Dominion) lend themselves to statistical evaluation.
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lespeutere

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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #21 on: June 09, 2012, 03:14:39 am »
+1

Here is some overlapping! :-)
I have to admit that I'm 'typically' European in that I do not care about Baseball at all and am not very well informed about American Football (knowing some players though - and apart from results, some curios even make it to the big German sports sites (Alex Tanney, recently)) but I do care a lot about the NBA (more about the game than statistics, though). Last year was terrific, a group of 20 people, mostly not knowing each other, gathering at 3 o' clock in the morning at a friend's friend's place 'cause he had the league pass for the finals, unbelieving watching Dirk winning his ring, too tired to celebrate afterwards. And of course when I got up as a kid to watch Bulls vs. Jazz - I'm so happy I'm not too young to have seen MJ playing as it happened.

But actually, this is about Euro 12... ;)
So, I'm looking forward to tonight's games, seeing Netherlands and Germany as the favourites, but on the other side I'm very suspicious about both Portugal and Denmark, the former being waved off by many who only see Ronaldo, the latter being waved off by many who see there isn't anyone like Ronaldo. Who is the world's most complete striker imho. Too many people judge him by the attitude they believe he's showing. So if they can combine their incredible attacking power and act as a team they might pose a threat to Germany tonight.
As for the Danish they're typically very well organised so it will be crucial to keep this organisation up and alive long enough to make the Dutch nervous which will be very hard. And they're lacking a typical and ruthless striker as Bendtner is one of those joining the game despite his 1.95m (6ft 5in for you over there ;-)).
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Davio

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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #22 on: June 09, 2012, 03:42:08 am »
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I don't hate Basketball, but I don't love it either. I don't need to see a "goal" every 10 seconds to make a sport interesting.
Football is just the undisputed #1 sport in the Netherlands and playing it myself since I was a wee boy certainly makes it more fun for me.

I'm a midfielder myself so when I see a midfielder on TV giving a brilliant through pass, I can really enjoy it. Sometimes even more so than when someone makes a simple goal. I'm also very proud that our small nation which has only ~17 million people can compete with the big ones who have > 80 million to choose from.

I'm looking forward to tonight. Netherlands must win their game if they want to achieve anything this year, but this team is not the same as the team that got 2nd at the World Cup. Of course all the players are 2 years older and for some, it begins to show. Robben isn't as explosive as he was, Kuyt certainly doesn't add anything any more. Then we have one 18 year old rookie taking over the task that van Bronckhorst did spectacularly and a nervous rookie in the central defense.

Portugal's biggest enemy is Portugal. That's always how they look to me. Too much ego and too little team. Christiano Ronaldo firing every free kick from 50m. on goal doesn't help. I'm anxious to see if they can play more as a team this year.

Germany on the other hand, is always a team when it comes to the tourneys. One of my favourite German players is Philip Lahm. He makes up for his lack of height by good positioning and good tactical defending. I like the quiet, but hard working types. The strikers get enough attention already.

Whoever gets 2nd in this group will likely have to go against Russia. That's something every team wants to avoid.
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olneyce

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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #23 on: June 09, 2012, 03:54:08 am »
+1

I try not to do too much self-linking, but I figure it's reasonable here.  At my blog I'm doing semi-daily commentaries about the tournament.  And I have my German friend to provide the continental perspective.

http://www.heartachewithhardwork.com/

Come by, comment, argue, etc. 
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lespeutere

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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #24 on: June 09, 2012, 04:31:48 am »
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I read your last post on your blog, olneyce, and I predicted the same semi-finalists as you did.
However, Germany can't face the Netherlands in the semi-finals since they will be:
winner (1. of A vs. 2. of B) - winner (1. of C vs. 2. of D)
winner (2. of A vs. 1. of B) - winner (2. of C vs. 1. of D)
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Davio

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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #25 on: June 09, 2012, 06:32:46 am »
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I read your last post on your blog, olneyce, and I predicted the same semi-finalists as you did.
However, Germany can't face the Netherlands in the semi-finals since they will be:
winner (1. of A vs. 2. of B) - winner (1. of C vs. 2. of D)
winner (2. of A vs. 1. of B) - winner (2. of C vs. 1. of D)
This in contrast to the tourney of 2008 where it was possible for two of the same group to meet in the semis.
Indeed Spain did play Russia again which they had previously beat during the group stage.
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cherdano

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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #26 on: June 09, 2012, 07:33:52 am »
+1

Heh, I am another one in that small corner of the Venn diagram where board game fans, football fans and NBA fans live...
So while it's really sad that isotropic is down, at least it happened with the Euros on the way and and exciting game 7 to come tonight  8)
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olneyce

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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #27 on: June 09, 2012, 12:31:18 pm »
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I read your last post on your blog, olneyce, and I predicted the same semi-finalists as you did.
However, Germany can't face the Netherlands in the semi-finals since they will be:
winner (1. of A vs. 2. of B) - winner (1. of C vs. 2. of D)
winner (2. of A vs. 1. of B) - winner (2. of C vs. 1. of D)
Hmmm, it isn't even that I just assumed it had the same format as 2008.  I actually went and checked the bracket to make sure.  And I STILL got it wrong. 

Well, good.  The other system was silly.
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glengarry

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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #28 on: June 09, 2012, 01:59:21 pm »
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how good were Denmark!  this generation of Dutch players deserve a lifetime of such humblings after WC2010 fiasco.  i think that 2-hour match was my new best time posted for not checking iso :-(
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greatexpectations

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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #29 on: June 09, 2012, 02:03:02 pm »
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how good were Denmark!

uhhh...not very. they were bossed around the field most of the game. they allowed 32(!) shots, but the dutch only put 5 on frame. easily could have been 5-1.
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olneyce

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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #30 on: June 09, 2012, 02:07:00 pm »
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how good were Denmark!

uhhh...not very. they were bossed around the field most of the game. they allowed 32(!) shots, but the dutch only put 5 on frame. easily could have been 5-1.
Disagree.  I would say the game was fairly balanced.  The Dutch took a lot of bad shots.  And the Danish defenders were fantastic closing down opportunities.  I will let Robben take pot shots from 20 yards all night long.  Robben hit the post once, Huntelaar had that glorious opportunity at about 70 minutes, and RVP might have put away a couple half-chances.  But Denmark could have scored one or two more, too.

Denmark had a game plan, they executed it, and it worked.  They got a little bit lucky, but you always need a bit of luck to get 3 points.
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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #31 on: June 09, 2012, 02:33:59 pm »
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fairly balanced?  you have to be kidding me. this was a repeat of the champions league semi between barcelona and chelsea. the dutch dominated shots, possession, scoring chances, corners, everything. the danes stuck to their game plan well enough, sure, but they were thoroughly outplayed.
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lespeutere

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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #32 on: June 09, 2012, 02:40:58 pm »
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I think after some time of adjustment the Danish were mostly in control of the game. They let the Dutch have the ball, so what. Nothing happened. And once the Danish were in possession the Dutch were totally lacking any aggression to get it back. I would've gone crazy in van Marwijk's place to see even van Bommel just lingering instead of running and attacking the player in possession - apart from that one scene where he tried to send a message. We've got a saying here for that kind of a win, calling it "lucky but not undeserved".
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Davio

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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #33 on: June 09, 2012, 02:55:58 pm »
+1

I think after some time of adjustment the Danish were mostly in control of the game. They let the Dutch have the ball, so what. Nothing happened. And once the Danish were in possession the Dutch were totally lacking any aggression to get it back. I would've gone crazy in van Marwijk's place to see even van Bommel just lingering instead of running and attacking the player in possession - apart from that one scene where he tried to send a message. We've got a saying here for that kind of a win, calling it "lucky but not undeserved".
I think you saw a different game and need new eyes.  :o

The Danish were never "in control" of the game, they were just "lucky" that the Dutch couldn't find the net. The Dutch just missed the last push to get it over the line. Sure, it was easy to play the ball round, because a lot of the Dutch players had given so much in the first half and they couldn't keep it up the entire game. Huntelaar and Van der Vaart should've been put in sooner. Van der Vaart played appauling though.

The best player, in my opinion, was Sneijder. He was everywhere, giving good passes and looking for combinations.

I wouldn't go so far as calling the Danish victory "lucky", but it was certainly undeserved. I'm not blaming the Danish for anything, they couldn't help it that the Dutch kept coming and needed to defend all the time. The Dutch just sold themselves short by not converting any of their gazillion chances.

I think it just shows that the pressure may be too much for Van Persie. He's a different player with Arsenal and with the Dutch team. Robben also isn't the man he was 2 years ago. Every one knows he is coming through on the inside and whereas his shots during the World Cup were always dangerous, now he's firing everything over instead of on the goal.

I don't understand any of the opinions here that the Danish were in control and that their defense played fantastic. I really don't. It's like you don't understand football at all. It's what we call "score board journalism".

In the end I don't think it was the Danish game plan that won them the game, it was the inability of the Dutch to convert any chances. But that was entirely the Dutch' own fault, not the Danish' accomplishment.
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yuma

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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #34 on: June 09, 2012, 03:36:37 pm »
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Both of the games today have been a disappointment. The Dutch team didn't look good. They had chances, but were mostly half chances at best. Just lacked finishing touches, crisp passes and decent crosses.

The Danish back line player very, very well. Kept the Dutch frustrated throughout the game. But I was very surprised the Dutch never got one in the goal after soooo many shots.

No one really deserved to win that game. The Dutch at their best would have easily won. But they certainly weren't at their best... No where close in fact.

As for the Germany/Portugal game. My Germany team needs a few less touches before every pass and Portugal needs a few more. Niether team is playing optimally--weird Dominion lingo just got put into a football conversation. Portugal was unlucky to not get a goal right before halftime. I don't know who will win this one at the end. A tie looks very possible. Probably the best result for Netherlands?
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cherdano

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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #35 on: June 09, 2012, 03:41:40 pm »
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I think the Danish were in control of the game - for about 15 minutes of the first half, following their goal... The Dutch had a shot hitting the post, two reasonable claims for a penalty, and half a dozens of good scoring position for van Persie. The Dutch can blame themselves for missing the scoring opportunities, but you can't call it an achievement of the Danish defense.

Sneijder was awesome. I thought both teams were better than any of teams of group A...
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Davio

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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #36 on: June 09, 2012, 03:49:37 pm »
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I agree that the Dutch at their best would have won, but it just didn't go their way tonight. And the ref was no help either, missing a couple of 'hands' situations. I feared that they would get frustrated and would start to play dumb.

They tried to keep their head and let the goal flow, but they just missed that bit of luck in the penalty area. And when they came close, they missed. They have only themselves to blame.

But I find it hard to believe it was the great Danish defending that kept them from scoring. Any one who really believes that should get their head checked.

I'll let the statistics speak:

Attempts: 28 for Holland vs. 8 for Denmark.
Attacks: 48 for Holland vs. 31 for Denmark.
Corners: 11 for Holland vs. 4 for Denmark.
Big chances: 4 for Holland vs. just the 1 (the goal) for Denmark.
Source


On with Germany vs Portugal: I expected more from this game. I know Portugal is a defensive team and most of their players (barring Ronaldo and Nani) aren't that impressive. Even Pepe is just a sledgehammer, nothing more.

I wonder what Germany will try to break the Portuguese defense.
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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #37 on: June 09, 2012, 05:36:46 pm »
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I agree with most of you. Sneijder played really impressive and Holland was really unlucky given the chances of Robben and stumbling van Persie. Ok, you need to make the goals, if you make none, you're not allowed to win. But a tie would be fair at least. Denmark only had one chance and even that was lucky. First the ball was blocked and got luckily to Krohn-Dehli and then he shot between the legs of the Dutch keeper, not fair. I agree that it was like Chelsea-Barca or like Chelsea-Munich in the Champions League.

Germany-Portugal was the least entertaining game so far. I'm half German, half Portuguese, so that was at least a special game for me. But it was really boring until the goal of Gomez. But I have to say a tie would be fair here too. Pepe's shot was very unlucky for Portugal and they had really big chances in the end. So 1-1 would be best.

Now it will get interesting. Holland has to win against Germany on Wednesday and if Denmark wins, Holland may even be out of the tournament. What a surprise!
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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #38 on: June 10, 2012, 07:47:50 am »
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Germany are my tip to win it, which is hard, being english. Lost my joy at waching the Dutcvh play after the last final which was just the most thuggish way to play I have seen for a long time!

Russia are the new Croatia in my view, dark horses that could cause upsets but not win it.

Oh and I would describe the Danes game as 'holding on' rather than playing well. They won, so they got the important things right by scoring the most goals, but they sneaked one and then held on.

Will be cheering on the irish tonight

Football clearly is my favourite sport, but I do like lots of sports, American Football is pretty good, as is Baseball. Basketball just seems dull to me, I love stats, so I would be more likely to watch the stats than the actual game going on. Just because someone scores every minute doesnt make it exciting, its like 'you have a shot, then we have a shot, then you have a shot'. The build up to the actual points scoring is far more important, which is why I like NFL in terms of US sport much more I think (probably folloowed by Ice Hockey if they showed more of it on UK TV)
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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #39 on: June 10, 2012, 08:03:21 am »
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Regarding last night's game feelings are a little ambivalent. Germany played like they used to play when they were successful: not attractive, but effective, winning despite playing badly. And the defense played better than expected (except Lahm), Hummels did a good job except for 1 or 2 situations, Boateng made life for Ronaldo as difficult as he could. And then the crossbar and Neuer heleped.
The offense - well, I'm not really willing to call it offense. Too slow, too few ideas. Just effective.

Now I'm excited to see how Spain does against this chaotic Italian squad. And I hope Ireland vs Croatia exceeds my expectations, Trappatoni teams tend to play - uhm - 'a little' defensively..
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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #40 on: June 10, 2012, 10:22:46 am »
+1

Basketball just seems dull to me, I love stats, so I would be more likely to watch the stats than the actual game going on. Just because someone scores every minute doesnt make it exciting, its like 'you have a shot, then we have a shot, then you have a shot'. The build up to the actual points scoring is far more important, which is why I like NFL in terms of US sport much more I think (probably folloowed by Ice Hockey if they showed more of it on UK TV)

But if you see a well-coached NBA team running an offense, there is a lot of build up towards creating a good shot, with various things happening at the same time. Meanwhile, defensive schemes are require more coordination than at any other sport that I understand.
Even though I had played basketball in high school, when I started watching NBA 4-5 years ago I honestly didn't see how much was going into any single possession.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2012, 10:43:21 am by cherdano »
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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #41 on: June 10, 2012, 01:14:49 pm »
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Germany are my tip to win it, which is hard, being english.

Worse than if France won ?

Well, that's fairly unlikely, but our team has gotten better. Although, arguably, it's not hard to do better than the miserable trainwreck that was the World Cup.
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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #42 on: June 10, 2012, 03:42:44 pm »
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Germany are my tip to win it, which is hard, being english.

Worse than if France won ?

Well, that's fairly unlikely, but our team has gotten better. Although, arguably, it's not hard to do better than the miserable trainwreck that was the World Cup.

Yep, definately much much worse. Too many footballing lessons handed out to the English by the Germans over the years, whereas in footballing terms France is just meh, cant even remember a time we have played any critical matches with them.
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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #43 on: June 10, 2012, 04:04:09 pm »
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I don't really care who wins.

We the Dutch have had our share of German defeats, but if they start playing as we know they can play with this team, I have no problem with them becoming European champions.

Of all the teams I've seen so far, I thought the Russians were the best. They played very well for 90 minutes, kept going AND converted it to a 4-1 win.
I liked how the Netherlands played, but if you don't score, well, it's hard to win, ey?

The Spanish were also quite impressive but you can see they're also very weak in the back.

Netherlands, Spain and Germany all have the same kind of teams: They're strongest in the midfield with players like Sneijder, Xavi, Iniesta and Özil and weak in the back. Piqué has had a bad season, Netherlands had to call on some rookies due to injuries and no other good options and Germany didn't play that good all around.

It's very hard to choose between playing well and losing and playing bad and winning. You'd rather have both, but it always seems Netherlands does the first and Germany does the latter. Let's hope this year the champion will be the one who has played the best.
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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #44 on: June 10, 2012, 04:14:07 pm »
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It's very hard to choose between playing well and losing and playing bad and winning. You'd rather have both, but it always seems Netherlands does the first and Germany does the latter. Let's hope this year the champion will be the one who has played the best.

I think you mean entertaining rather than best?

with the aim being to win games, the team that wins will be the best

[irony]And if you want entertaining, you wait till the Liverpool England take the field and Stuart Downing is marauding down the wing![/irony]
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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #45 on: June 11, 2012, 11:58:37 am »
+1

Best match so far imho was actually Spain vs Italy, since I found it very intense. And I was surprised a little by the Italians. They did a really good job at denying clear chances to the Spanish without ONLY defending around the box all game long.
Best team performance was from Russia despite their periods of rest. It will be interesting to see how they can avoid those in matches against strong teams (which they will face from the 1/4finals).
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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #46 on: June 11, 2012, 08:28:05 pm »
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Best match so far imho was actually Spain vs Italy, since I found it very intense. And I was surprised a little by the Italians. They did a really good job at denying clear chances to the Spanish without ONLY defending around the box all game long.
Best team performance was from Russia despite their periods of rest. It will be interesting to see how they can avoid those in matches against strong teams (which they will face from the 1/4finals).

Agreed, Spain/Italy was fun to watch despite the 1-1 tie, on the other hand England/France was a boor. I think a lot of teams went into the first game with the philosophy of being happy with a tie. An ok, strategy but doesn't always make for the most attractive football.

I wasn't going to watch the Ukraine/Sweden game but I was glad I did. Two decent teams battling it out. Fun, but probably not that significant in the whole of the tournament.
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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #47 on: June 11, 2012, 08:48:22 pm »
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Germany are my tip to win it, which is hard, being english.

Worse than if France won ?

Well, that's fairly unlikely, but our team has gotten better. Although, arguably, it's not hard to do better than the miserable trainwreck that was the World Cup.

Yep, definately much much worse. Too many footballing lessons handed out to the English by the Germans over the years, whereas in footballing terms France is just meh, cant even remember a time we have played any critical matches with them.

That's a fair point. I'm mostly a rugby fan, so France-England always feels special to me, even though we don't have that much history in football.

By the way, that match was quite good. France played well, and we probably deserved to win I feel, but the English were solid defensively, so I guess a draw is fine. The referee was all over the place though, for both sides.
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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #48 on: June 11, 2012, 09:41:20 pm »
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France/England was boring, but it was an interesting sort of boring, if that makes sense.

There wasn't any significant tactical shift over the game.  There wasn't anything tremendously surprising.  France played cagey, possession-oriented football, while England seems to have very quickly adopted a classic Hodgson two-banks-of-four style.  That's all exactly as expected.  But it was tense, thanks to the importance of the occasion.  And maybe it's just me, but I find that sort of battle to be interesting to watch.  I understand enough about tactics to be able to actually follow what they're trying to do, but not enough that it's just totally boring to me.
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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #49 on: June 12, 2012, 03:29:36 am »
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How about that Shevchenko ey?

"I'll just hand deliver the first victory of my team with two superb headers"
What a turnaround!

Good for them, it looked like they won the final the way they were celebrating, it was very enjoyable to watch.
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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #50 on: June 12, 2012, 03:52:53 am »
+1

As you probably know, Sweden lost their game against Ukraine yesterday. Now whole of Sweden is in shock, and it's this horrible feeling of despair in the air. And I actually like it. I will probably try to avoid this thread as much as possible so that my negative feelings towards the sport doesn't ruin you fun. ;)
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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #51 on: June 12, 2012, 04:05:52 am »
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As you probably know, Sweden lost their game against Ukraine yesterday. Now whole of Sweden is in shock, and it's this horrible feeling of despair in the air. And I actually like it. I will probably try to avoid this thread as much as possible so that my negative feelings towards the sport doesn't ruin you fun. ;)
Sweden will still reach the next round I think, mostly because England is incredibly weak this year, and France... well, they played okayish, but without being really dangerous.
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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #52 on: June 12, 2012, 04:52:46 am »
+1

Tomorrow, the Netherlands will destroy the Germans!
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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #53 on: June 12, 2012, 05:00:55 am »
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Tomorrow, the Netherlands will destroy the Germans!
In terms of how often they tried to score and didn't?
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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #54 on: June 12, 2012, 05:03:49 am »
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we perform better against better teams.
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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #55 on: June 12, 2012, 04:49:05 pm »
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France/England was boring, but it was an interesting sort of boring, if that makes sense.

There wasn't any significant tactical shift over the game.  There wasn't anything tremendously surprising.  France played cagey, possession-oriented football, while England seems to have very quickly adopted a classic Hodgson two-banks-of-four style.  That's all exactly as expected.  But it was tense, thanks to the importance of the occasion.  And maybe it's just me, but I find that sort of battle to be interesting to watch.  I understand enough about tactics to be able to actually follow what they're trying to do, but not enough that it's just totally boring to me.

A bit like how I enjoy watch the snooker when its a long safety game exchange rather than someone just coming in and clearing up off one good pot!

And I think England played alright to be honest, dull, but alright. We will cause problems for teams not quite as skilful as France to break down, we just need to create a few more chances of our own and more importantly, take them when they come up. I think if we play like that against Sweeeden and Ukraine then we should get through the group.
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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #56 on: June 12, 2012, 04:54:41 pm »
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we perform better against better teams.
Sorry to break the news to you, but I don't think the Germans have played very well so far...
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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #57 on: June 12, 2012, 05:03:00 pm »
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No, they didn't. But I think you can't deny that Germany is a stronger opponent than Denmark. I'm really looking forward to this game.

Nice games today, especially Russia - Poland, a game which went forth and back, no play in the midfield. Both played very well, but I still don't think any of both will be European Champion. They had so many good opportunities, so only one goal isn't enough.
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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #58 on: June 12, 2012, 05:12:01 pm »
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France/England was boring, but it was an interesting sort of boring, if that makes sense.

There wasn't any significant tactical shift over the game.  There wasn't anything tremendously surprising.  France played cagey, possession-oriented football, while England seems to have very quickly adopted a classic Hodgson two-banks-of-four style.  That's all exactly as expected.  But it was tense, thanks to the importance of the occasion.  And maybe it's just me, but I find that sort of battle to be interesting to watch.  I understand enough about tactics to be able to actually follow what they're trying to do, but not enough that it's just totally boring to me.

That makes complete sense. I watched the entire game and enjoyed it, but it wasn't what I would call entertaining football. I think that is the sort of game that my American friends would hate, but enjoyed it despite it lacking the shine.

I was hoping for a tactical shift by either team. But both seemed content with playing for a draw and hoping for the other team to have a mental collapse and allow a score for the win late.
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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #59 on: June 12, 2012, 05:13:33 pm »
0

France/England was boring, but it was an interesting sort of boring, if that makes sense.

There wasn't any significant tactical shift over the game.  There wasn't anything tremendously surprising.  France played cagey, possession-oriented football, while England seems to have very quickly adopted a classic Hodgson two-banks-of-four style.  That's all exactly as expected.  But it was tense, thanks to the importance of the occasion.  And maybe it's just me, but I find that sort of battle to be interesting to watch.  I understand enough about tactics to be able to actually follow what they're trying to do, but not enough that it's just totally boring to me.

That makes complete sense. I watched the entire game and enjoyed it, but it wasn't what I would call entertaining football. I think that is the sort of game that my American friends would hate, but enjoyed it despite it lacking the shine.

I was hoping for a tactical shift by either team. But both seemed content with playing for a draw and hoping for the other team to have a mental collapse and allow a score for the win late.

If you think that was enjoyable, you must LOVE Cricket, that can go for 5 days and still come out a draw!
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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #60 on: June 13, 2012, 01:53:20 pm »
+1

So, I've only watched maybe four games from this. But the Denmark-Portugal game, if the last third of it was an accurate indication, was absolutely thrilling. The kind of thing that has me shouting for people I have no connection to basically whatsoever.

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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #61 on: June 13, 2012, 01:55:14 pm »
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So, I've only watched maybe four games from this. But the Denmark-Portugal game, if the last third of it was an accurate indication, was absolutely thrilling. The kind of thing that has me shouting for people I have no connection to basically whatsoever.

Yeah, I was cheering on the Danes for some reason. Probably because I saw them as the weakest from the group so in the long run its better for England, plus I love an underdog!

Hopefully Holland win tonight and all teams end up on 3 points going into the last game!
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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #62 on: June 13, 2012, 03:09:46 pm »
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That was a damn pretty goal Germany just scored.  Still can't believe RVP missed that early chance.
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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #63 on: June 13, 2012, 03:22:44 pm »
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Wow the Dutch defense is playing pathetically.  This is embarrassing.
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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #64 on: June 13, 2012, 04:21:14 pm »
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So, I've only watched maybe four games from this. But the Denmark-Portugal game, if the last third of it was an accurate indication, was absolutely thrilling. The kind of thing that has me shouting for people I have no connection to basically whatsoever.

Hopefully your watching this one as well! Been pretty darn good since the Dutch woke up!
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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #65 on: June 13, 2012, 04:33:06 pm »
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So, I've only watched maybe four games from this. But the Denmark-Portugal game, if the last third of it was an accurate indication, was absolutely thrilling. The kind of thing that has me shouting for people I have no connection to basically whatsoever.

Hopefully your watching this one as well! Been pretty darn good since the Dutch woke up!
Walking over behind my coworker every 5 minutes for a 3 minute glimpse. Well, and I caught most of the first half, which did not have me all that enthused. Unfortunately, I can't straight watch it, now that it's gotten interesting :(

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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #66 on: June 13, 2012, 04:36:18 pm »
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The ending minutes of a soccer game are like the ending minutes of a basketball game -- painfully tedious regardless of the score.  The occasional last-minute heroics don't make up for the fact that almost all games go out with a whimper instead of a bang.

I think hockey is the one sport that manages to ensure exciting endings.
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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #67 on: June 13, 2012, 04:41:02 pm »
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Wow the Dutch defense is playing pathetically.  This is embarrassing.
Tell me about it.

I am ashaded of and mad at our team.

No one seemed to want to take the team by their hand. Even with 2-0 behind, no one seemed to be in a hurry.
I'm a football player myself and whenever we're down, even if it's 6-0, I keep spurring our troops on.
Once we were 4-0 down after the first half and still won 5-4.

The bad play is only part of what bothered me, the seeming lack of interest and effort bothered me more.

In those games, the star players should rise up and lead the soldiers into battle.
Where was Sneijder? He was so good the first match, how could he be so bad?

With play like this, we shouldn't have won the match and moreover, we shouldn't make it into the quarter-finals.
I'm sad to say this, but being a true sportsman, I have to tip my hat to the better team and that wasn't Holland.

A fluke goal by Van Persie made it look like we were back in the game, but I never had a feeling the 2-2 was around the corner.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 04:43:21 pm by Davio »
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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #68 on: June 13, 2012, 04:42:37 pm »
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Im not sure I quite agree with that, a lot of basketball matches the last few minutes is just insurmountable odds for the losing team. Actually thats true of nearly all sports in that the very last section you are pretty sure who has won barring crazy circumstances.

Where often in football, its usually 1 goal in it. And when that goal goes in its amazing.

The last 5 minutes of this game were crucial, if the Dutch could have broken through then the whole group dynamics would have changed!

Not sure if you follow the premiership, but the whole season was won by Manchester City in the last 5 minutes during injury time, snatching it away from Man U who were already celebrating it as won.

Again, Man U's win in the Cl final over Bayern Munich in 1999

It doesnt happen often, but when it does it more than makes up for the last 5 minutes of all the other games where somebody runs it to the corner.

Its the fact of footballs unpredictibility that gives it its worldwild appear I feel, that rubbish teams can, and do, beat stronger teams because all of the games are close
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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #69 on: June 13, 2012, 04:46:12 pm »
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That was a damn pretty goal Germany just scored.  Still can't believe RVP missed that early chance.
I thought he barely got to the ball, this didn't look easy to me.
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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #70 on: June 13, 2012, 04:48:44 pm »
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I feel a bit sorry for the Danes, looks like they will have to beat Germany to progress now, after shocking Holland in the first game and coming so close to a draw in the Portugal game.
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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #71 on: June 13, 2012, 04:50:17 pm »
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Im not sure I quite agree with that, a lot of basketball matches the last few minutes is just insurmountable odds for the losing team. Actually thats true of nearly all sports in that the very last section you are pretty sure who has won barring crazy circumstances.

Where often in football, its usually 1 goal in it. And when that goal goes in its amazing.

The last 5 minutes of this game were crucial, if the Dutch could have broken through then the whole group dynamics would have changed!

Not sure if you follow the premiership, but the whole season was won by Manchester City in the last 5 minutes during injury time, snatching it away from Man U who were already celebrating it as won.

Again, Man U's win in the Cl final over Bayern Munich in 1999

It doesnt happen often, but when it does it more than makes up for the last 5 minutes of all the other games where somebody runs it to the corner.

Its the fact of footballs unpredictibility that gives it its worldwild appear I feel, that rubbish teams can, and do, beat stronger teams because all of the games are close
Oh, I know it does happen.  I saw the Man City goal that clinched the Premiership, and there are those other last-minute goals as well.

The problem is that 90% of the time, even when the game is close, the ending is boring because one team can effectively play keepaway.  In other words, games are very rarely tense even when they should be.  Once in a while it is, but I think that those are exciting mostly because of the scoring, not because they are rare.

Contrast with hockey -- it's rarer that there is a 1-goal difference, but when there is, it is guaranteed to be tense down to the wire because the losing team can pull their goaltender for a 6-on-5 advantage.
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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #72 on: June 13, 2012, 04:52:50 pm »
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The ending minutes of a soccer game are like the ending minutes of a basketball game -- painfully tedious regardless of the score.  The occasional last-minute heroics don't make up for the fact that almost all games go out with a whimper instead of a bang.

I think hockey is the one sport that manages to ensure exciting endings.
Funny, I thought the last few minutes of the Denmark-Portugal game were extremely interesting. And when I went to the MLS cup a few years back, it was really interesting at the end. Granted, I think you almost need a 1 goal deficit to make this be so interesting.
But it's really great to see the goalkeeper coming up past midfield. :)

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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #73 on: June 13, 2012, 04:57:31 pm »
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Im not sure I quite agree with that, a lot of basketball matches the last few minutes is just insurmountable odds for the losing team. Actually thats true of nearly all sports in that the very last section you are pretty sure who has won barring crazy circumstances.

Where often in football, its usually 1 goal in it. And when that goal goes in its amazing.

The last 5 minutes of this game were crucial, if the Dutch could have broken through then the whole group dynamics would have changed!

Not sure if you follow the premiership, but the whole season was won by Manchester City in the last 5 minutes during injury time, snatching it away from Man U who were already celebrating it as won.

Again, Man U's win in the Cl final over Bayern Munich in 1999

It doesnt happen often, but when it does it more than makes up for the last 5 minutes of all the other games where somebody runs it to the corner.

Its the fact of footballs unpredictibility that gives it its worldwild appear I feel, that rubbish teams can, and do, beat stronger teams because all of the games are close
Oh, I know it does happen.  I saw the Man City goal that clinched the Premiership, and there are those other last-minute goals as well.

The problem is that 90% of the time, even when the game is close, the ending is boring because one team can effectively play keepaway.  In other words, games are very rarely tense even when they should be.  Once in a while it is, but I think that those are exciting mostly because of the scoring, not because they are rare.

Contrast with hockey -- it's rarer that there is a 1-goal difference, but when there is, it is guaranteed to be tense down to the wire because the losing team can pull their goaltender for a 6-on-5 advantage.

Even if 90% of games the one team has been playing keepaway then there is still the chance for a mistake if there is only a goal in it. Plus if its 1-1 then rarely is one team settling for a draw!

6 on 5 advantage in Hockey? You're still 5 players short *winks*
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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #74 on: June 13, 2012, 05:02:59 pm »
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The problem is that 90% of the time, even when the game is close, the ending is boring because one team can effectively play keepaway.  In other words, games are very rarely tense even when they should be.  Once in a while it is, but I think that those are exciting mostly because of the scoring, not because they are rare.
Believe me, if you are really rooting for a team, you are still worried every second of the last ten minutes, even if the Dutch didn't get possession more than a few seconds for two or three times...

(Still exhausted from the game.)
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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #75 on: June 13, 2012, 05:10:51 pm »
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I can't believe us Dutchies still have a chance to go through.

With the round robin there are so many times that the third game doesn't matter.
Now the Germans will undoubtedly start with their substitions and I don't blame them.
If you can save some energy of your players, you might as well do so.

And in first games no one wants to lose, leading to boring drawish games.

I'm for a total knock-out stage, just put the #1 of the qualification against #16 etc.
This makes for more tense games and you have to go all out when you're down.

Sure, this is less interesting commercially, but I don't care about commerce, I care about sports.
I'm a football enthusiast though nothing beats playing it yourself.

I can get really fed up by seeing a bunch of millionaires doing absolutely nothing and complaining that it's so tough to be a footballer.
Try working a night shift pouring asphalt or something.
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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #76 on: June 13, 2012, 05:13:02 pm »
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I can't believe us Dutchies still have a chance to go through.

With the round robin there are so many times that the third game doesn't matter.
Now the Germans will undoubtedly start with their substitions and I don't blame them.
If you can save some energy of your players, you might as well do so.

And in first games no one wants to lose, leading to boring drawish games.

I'm for a total knock-out stage, just put the #1 of the qualification against #16 etc.
This makes for more tense games and you have to go all out when you're down.

Sure, this is less interesting commercially, but I don't care about commerce, I care about sports.
I'm a football enthusiast though nothing beats playing it yourself.

I can get really fed up by seeing a bunch of millionaires doing absolutely nothing and complaining that it's so tough to be a footballer.
Try working a night shift pouring asphalt or something.
You know, I'm surprised. Maybe this high-class football is something different, but my general reaction when not liking the format of a sport is to want MORE of it, not less.

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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #77 on: June 13, 2012, 05:23:18 pm »
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Actually, I had the same feeling about the Dutch in their first match. They never really attacked the ball which is why I said the Danish were in control of the game. Of course, against Denmark there were more chances created, but still it didn't feel like there was a real chance to win the game.
Eventually it was exhausting as cherdano said, you cannot be sure against van Persie, Huntelaar, Sneijder etc with a difference of 1 goal only.
Again, the German offense was mostly effective, not spectacular. There was an improvement of Schweinsteiger and mostly of Lahm. Khedira did a good job again, not very noticeable, but that's kind of a compliment for a 6er. Podolski was certainly disappointing with regard to his offense, but he did a pretty good job defensively, better than we are used to.

After all, it was deserved, I think, so now it's going to be really interesting to see who advances in this group B.
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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #78 on: June 13, 2012, 05:54:10 pm »
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Tomorrow, the Netherlands will destroy the Germans!

So, yeah, That went great. Now we only have to score two goals more than Portugal, that is only 200% more of what we have scored now, and Germany has to win!
Easy money!!
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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #79 on: June 14, 2012, 03:01:39 am »
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In al honesty from what we've seen so far, no team other than Germany deserves to advance.
Germany has played well those two games. Maybe not spectacular, but I noticed that everytime they had the ball their supporting midfielders - Schweinsteiger especially - participated in the attack.

And when they were on the defense they played very compact, every player - even the striker - was behind the ball when Holland was passing it around in their defense. This made it very hard for the Dutch to find a breakthrough.

Portugal, Denmark and Netherlands have all played appauling.
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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #80 on: June 14, 2012, 04:30:02 am »
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Portugal, Denmark and Netherlands have all played appauling.

I don't think this is quite fair. Netherlands played well against Denmark.

Portugal's offense works really well whenever they manage to avoid getting Ronaldo involved too much.

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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #81 on: June 14, 2012, 05:22:15 am »
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Portugal, Denmark and Netherlands have all played appauling.

I don't think this is quite fair. Netherlands played well against Denmark.

Portugal's offense works really well whenever they manage to avoid getting Ronaldo involved too much.
Netherlands played well against Denmark, but not at the level we know they can.
They just dropped the ball completely against Germany. It was almost as if they had no interest whatsoever in winning.
I know it's tough when you're behind, but come on, instead of sulking around on the pitch, you should put some effort into it.

Portugal doesn't have a team. They have 11 individualists. There are so many wrong passes where you can clearly see they just don't understand each other. And Ronaldo fires every free kick into the stands or in the wall.

Denmark just lacks quality. Their goals comee from defensive errors rather than their offensive creativity. They just play boring.

The overall quality in this Euro is a bit lacking. I don't mind going back to 8 teams rather than 16.
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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #82 on: June 14, 2012, 05:51:04 am »
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The overall quality in this Euro is a bit lacking. I don't mind going back to 8 teams rather than 16.

I'm not sure whether it's a matter of the number of teams. Even Netherlands didn't play well last night, Germany struggled in their first, much like Spain etc.
I think there are two main reasons:
First, the tournament takes place after a looong season (I know what you US guys will come up with now, or those handball players here in Germany, but still), Bayern Munich's got 13 players in the Euro 12 - and they played the CL final just a month ago. Spanish and English teams have even more matches in their home leagues, and so on.
Second, and maybe even more important, there is some evolution with respect to tactics and it might just be that matches are not that spectacular to watch at this stage of 'football evolution'. Spain dominated 2008 and 2010 (playing without any strikers was just one more step in thinking the concept to the end, imho; I'm wondering what they would've done with Villa ready to play) but other teams have adapted to that. It is not that surprising they start struggling when Barcelona does, too (well, on a high level, but still it feels like they are).

And a last comment: Euro 2016 will be with 24 teams (like world cups until '94).
They saying goes, some people needed some votes - they got them from small countries which lacked chances to take part in these tournaments so far.
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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #83 on: June 14, 2012, 06:23:51 am »
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Well, there is no doubt in my mind that the UEFA and FIFA are corrupt through and through and they don't care a bit about football, just their old pockets.

When Platini was appointed I thought he had some good ideas about the sport, but it turns out he's just another pocketfiller. Whether these orginzations make you like that or just brings it out, I don't know.

24 teams will be a monstrocity. We will get games like Slovenia - Montenegro, ugh.


There is only so much you can do with tactics. In the end, personal qualities are just as important and these qualities are the reason I enjoy football. I love watching Xavi and Iniesta receiving passes, because they have the ball under control within 1 second. I looked at Van Persie last night and the ball kept bouncing away. You just don't have that kind of time against a decent defense.

We have to realize that this is not the same team as at the World Cup. Sure, 9 players in the starting 11 were the same, but they're all 2 years older and when the best players don't bring it, it really shows how weak we are in the back. None of our defenders and defending midfielders are top class. It's all in the front. And when we don't get the ball to the front, we can't really bring the excitement.


I do think the football calendar is too full for most of these players, especially those in the English competition.
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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #84 on: June 15, 2012, 06:01:37 pm »
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GROUP A:

Russia (4) v Greece (1), Czech Republic (3) v Poland (2)

No team is definitely through, no team is definitely out.

RUSSIA WIN, CZECH REPUBLIC WIN OR DRAW: Russia winners, Czech Republic runners-up.

RUSSIA WIN, CZECH REPUBLIC LOSE: Russia winners, Poland runners-up.

RUSSIA DRAW, CZECH REPUBLIC WIN: Czech Republic winners, Russia runners-up.

RUSSIA DRAW, CZECH REPUBLIC DRAW: Russia winners, Czech Republic runners-up.

RUSSIA DRAW, CZECH REPUBLIC LOSE: Russia and Poland qualify. If Poland's winning margin is less than 3, Russia are group winners; if it is more than 3, Poland are group winners. If Poland beat the Czechs by exactly 3 goals, it comes down to goals scored overall. (Currently Russia have 5, Poland 2.)

RUSSIA LOSE, CZECH REPUBLIC WIN: Czech Republic winners, Greece runners-up.

RUSSIA LOSE, CZECH REPUBLIC DRAW: Poland are out and the other three teams are tied on four points, with the Czech Republic's goal difference fixed at -2. Before this game, Russia's was +3 and Greece's -1, so if Greece win by:
1 or 2 goals: Russia winners, Greece runners-up (separated by goals scored in the latter case).
3 to 5 goals: Greece winners, Russia runners-up (again, goals scored keeps Russia ahead of the Czech Republic in the latter case).
6 or more goals: Greece winners, Czech Republic runners-up.

RUSSIA LOSE, CZECH REPUBLIC LOSE: Poland winners, Greece runners-up.

GROUP B:

Germany (6) v Denmark (3); Portugal (3) v Netherlands (0)

No team is definitely through; no team is definitely out.

GERMANY WIN, PORTUGAL WIN OR DRAW: Germany winners, Portugal runners-up.

GERMANY WIN, PORTUGAL LOSE: Germany winners. All other teams tied on 3 points;
...Netherlands win by 2 or more goals: Netherlands runners-up.
...Netherlands win by 1 goal and score 2 or more: Portugal runnners-up.
...Netherlands win 1-0: it comes down to overall goal difference in the group. If Germany beat Denmark by...
...more than 1 goal, Portugal are runners-up.
...one goal with Denmark scoring, Denmark are runners-up on goals scored.
...1-0, it goes to coefficients.

GERMANY DRAW, PORTUGAL WIN OR DRAW: Germany winners, Portugal runners-up.

GERMANY DRAW, PORTUGAL LOSE:
Germany winners, Denmark runners-up.

GERMANY LOSE, PORTUGAL WIN:
Netherlands are eliminated. The other three teams are tied on 6 points. If Denmark beat Germany by:
more than one goal, Denmark are winners, Portugal runners-up.
1-0: Denmark and Portugal qualify. Portugal win the group unless their win against Netherlands is precisely 1-0, in which case it goes to coefficients.
2-1: Denmark winners, Portugal runners-up.
3-2: Denmark winners. Portugal runners-up if they beat Netherlands by more than one goal, or by 1 goal with a 3-2 or greater scoreline. Germany will be runners-up if Portugal win 1-0. If Portugal win 2-1, it goes to coefficients.
4-3 or greater scoreline: Denmark winners, Germany runners-up.

GERMANY LOSE, PORTUGAL DRAW OR LOSE: Denmark winners, Germany runners-up.

GROUP C:

Spain (4) v Croatia (4), Italy (2) v Republic of Ireland (0).

No teams are definitely through, Republic of Ireland are definitely out.

SPAIN WIN, ITALY WIN: Spain winners, Italy runners-up.

SPAIN WIN, ITALY DRAW OR LOSE: Spain winners, Croatia runners-up.

SPAIN DRAW, ITALY WIN: Spain, Croatia and Italy all tie on 5 points. If the Spain-Croatia scoreline is:

0-0: Italy winners, Spain runners-up.
1-1: All rests on the Italy-Republic of Ireland game. If Italy win by:
...1 goal: Spain winners, Croatia runners-up.
...2 goals: Spain winners. If Italy win ...2-0, Croatia are runners-up. If Italy win 4-2 or any higher scoreline, Italy are runners-up. If Italy win 3-1, it goes to coefficients.
...3 goals: Spain winners, Italy runners-up.
...4 goals: Spain and Italy qualify. If Italy win 4-0, it goes to coefficients; otherwise, Italy winners, Spain runners-up.
...5 goals or more: Italy winners, Spain runners-up.
2-2 or any higher-scoring draw: Spain winners, Croatia runners-up.

SPAIN DRAW, ITALY DRAW OR LOSE: Spain winners, Croatia runners-up.

SPAIN LOSE, ITALY WIN: Croatia winners, Italy runners-up.

SPAIN LOSE, ITALY LOSE OR DRAW: Croatia winners, Spain runners-up.

GROUP D:

England (4) v Ukraine (3); France (4) v Sweden (0)

No team are definitely through; Sweden are definitely out.

ENGLAND WIN, FRANCE WIN: England and France qualify. If France match or better England's winning margin, France are group winners. If England better France's winning margin by two goals or more, England are group winners.
If England's winning margin is exactly one more than France's, it comes down to goals scored: if England score at least as many as France, England are group winners; if France score at least two more than England, France are group winners. If France score exactly one more than England, it goes to coefficients.

ENGLAND WIN, FRANCE DRAW OR LOSE: England winners, France runners-up.

ENGLAND DRAW, FRANCE WIN OR DRAW:
France winners, England runners-up.

ENGLAND DRAW, FRANCE LOSE:
England winners, France runners-up.

ENGLAND LOSE, FRANCE WIN:
France winners, Ukraine runners-up.

ENGLAND LOSE, FRANCE DRAW:
Ukraine winners, France runners-up.

ENGLAND LOSE, FRANCE LOSE: Ukraine winners. If Ukraine match or better Sweden's winning margin, France are group runners-up. If Sweden better Ukraine's winning margin by two goals or more, England are group runners-up.
If Sweden's winning margin is exactly one more than Ukraine's, it comes down to goals scored: if England score at least as many as France, England are group runners-up; if France score at least two more than England, France are group runners-up. If France score exactly one more than England, it goes to coefficients.
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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #85 on: June 15, 2012, 06:16:17 pm »
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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #86 on: June 15, 2012, 07:14:06 pm »
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Phew, thats all i can say. A crazy 15 minutes after half time and they were all over us, but we came good when the pressure was on.
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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #87 on: June 16, 2012, 05:36:23 pm »
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HOW are the Russians not qualifying from that group! Unbelievable!
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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #88 on: June 16, 2012, 05:53:12 pm »
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Greece being in the quarterfinals is just awesome, for obvious reasons. I wasn't really invested in them until now, but I really want them to go farther now, even though/partly because it's extremely unlikely.
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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #89 on: June 16, 2012, 06:04:39 pm »
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Greece being in the quarterfinals is just awesome, for obvious reasons. I wasn't really invested in them until now, but I really want them to go farther now, even though/partly because it's extremely unlikely.

Or: Argh 2004 all over again, hehe

I really wanted Poland to go through with Russia
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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #90 on: June 17, 2012, 12:15:11 am »
+1

Greece being in the quarterfinals is just awesome, for obvious reasons. I wasn't really invested in them until now, but I really want them to go farther now, even though/partly because it's extremely unlikely.
Strenuously disagree.  They're probably my least favorite team in world football.
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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #91 on: June 17, 2012, 12:54:49 am »
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Is that anything like strenuously objecting?
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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #92 on: June 17, 2012, 02:18:45 am »
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Is that anything like strenuously objecting?
Oh yes.  I've found that strenuous disagreement is precisely as effective in internet posts as it is in the court of law.
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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #93 on: June 17, 2012, 04:05:56 am »
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Well yeah, they're not a pleasant team to see play. It's just kind of a great story for Greece to do well in the Euro, considering the current situation of Greece.

I don't really want 2004 again, but still, I like the idea of Greece exceeding expectations this year.
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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #94 on: June 17, 2012, 04:43:07 am »
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Greece being in the quarterfinals is just awesome, for obvious reasons. I wasn't really invested in them until now, but I really want them to go farther now, even though/partly because it's extremely unlikely.

Or: Argh 2004 all over again, hehe

2004 was Germany:Netherlands 1:1, so maybe not all over again.
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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #95 on: June 17, 2012, 05:00:45 am »
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I really like Greece qualifying, because now all the "oh, they are not playing the Correct Type Of Football (TM)"-people are going to start complaining how bad this is for football, which I always find funny.

Playing football is about winning games, and Greece are (sometimes) extremely good at using their (not very good) players to do that effectively, which is impressive.

In the same way Chelsea deserved to win the Champions League final, because they defended well, and were effective. In general (barring mistakes by the referee) the team that wins almost always deserves it, for all sufficiently good definitions of "deserve to win".
« Last Edit: June 17, 2012, 05:32:50 am by Turambar »
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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #96 on: June 17, 2012, 05:13:21 am »
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I agree with the above statement, however the best football is not always the most entertaining football

And as long as it doesnt directly affect England then I want to see the most entertaining from other countries, and that means anyone but Greece!
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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #97 on: June 17, 2012, 05:14:47 am »
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Watching Greece play makes my eyes bleed.

Oh well, even if they win the Euro, they'll probably lose the Euro.  ::)
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cherdano

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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #98 on: June 17, 2012, 06:42:31 am »
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Best comment on Greece (by a Spanish friend of mine, on facebook):
"I am not sure if being German I would like to play against Greece on Friday."
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cherdano

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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #99 on: June 17, 2012, 06:46:04 am »
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In the same way Chelsea deserved to win the Champions League final, because they defended well, and were effective. In general (barring mistakes by the referee) the team that wins almost always deserves it, for all sufficiently good definitions of "deserve to win".

Soccer is inherently very random, just because it is decided by so few goals. If team A plays team B, and A will score 1.5 goals on averages versus B's 1.0 goals, then B will win occasionally. Even if teams A and B play equally well all the time.
So if B wins on one of those occasions, did B "deserve to win"? I didn't see the match Russia-Greece, but based on what I saw of the two teams before, I would have consider Russia the team A and Greece the team B. I would be very happy to bet on Russia in a rematch. Would you be willing to bet on Greece, based on the game you saw?

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Davio

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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #100 on: June 17, 2012, 07:44:45 am »
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A comment I once read about European football (rough translation): "There are no dwarves anymore."

In earlier times you could consistently beat a lesser team by more than 5 goals difference. Nowadays, even smaller teams can organize a decent defense and stall out for as long as possible.

Just keep all of your guys on your own half behind the ball.

I don't like defensive games while they obviously hold some appeal in a Euro game sense. I like to watch Spain as they attack with everyone except Piqué and Puyol. I like the Dutch school of football with combinations and possession. However, you need appropriate players to go on the offensive. It's very hot nowadays for left and right backs to join the attack and give a crossball. This is fine if your backs are Roberto Carlos and Cafu, not if they're 18 year old Willems and bad playing van der Wiel.

You can't blame Greece for playing the way they do, though, they just can't do it any better. Is it Greece's fault that Russia didn't score a goal? Of course not, but I would have liked to see more of Russia and less of Greece. If I'm to invest 90 minutes of my life watching a football game I'd rather see a team trying to score a goal than a team trying to not let one through and hope for a lucky moment on the other side.
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Davio

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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #101 on: June 17, 2012, 04:33:15 pm »
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I'm not sad to see Holland leave the tournament.

If anything has become clear this Euro it's that we need some fresh blood. The coach has stayed on too long. Van der Vaart, Sneijder and Robben are playing in their 4th tournament already. It seems some wear and tear has come over this team. Unfortunately the rookies are not yet ready to play on this level.

We had a good run with 2nd at the World Cup, time to rebuild.
Our youth team is on their way to their own Euro 2013 in Israel and we'll see what those guys will bring in the coming years.

I'm not mad that we're out, we didn't deserve to go through. I AM mad that it was so bland. No one stood up or was ready to put an extra foot in front of the other. We're going out with a bang puff.

In other news: I finally finished the baby's room today. It's only football.  ;)
« Last Edit: June 17, 2012, 04:37:25 pm by Davio »
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greatexpectations

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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #102 on: June 17, 2012, 04:38:34 pm »
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that was an absolute mess by the dutch. they dominated the game until they scored and then they fell to pieces.  i think they do need some new blood as well.  i was shocked van marwijk didn't make any subs other than afellay.  would have been nice to see some younger guys, or at least give kuyt a chance to run around.

i'm glad the dutch didn't make it through as well. wouldn't have had much success in the later rounds anyway.
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Qvist

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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #103 on: June 17, 2012, 04:46:39 pm »
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Yeah, the Netherlands didn't deserve to proceed in the tournament, still I'm pretty shocked how they got out of the tournament: not a single point! And they are the world champion runner-up! They have a great team, great individual players (which are very important in their own national teams), but didn't played like a team. I don't know if they need new players, but they definitely need to play as a team.

I'm glad that Germany and Portugal are in the quarter finals. Portugal is really great to watch, just like Spain, although I'm not sure how far they can come. Germany really plays like a team together. So I think Germany and Spain are still the favourites for winning this tournament.
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yuma

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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #104 on: June 21, 2012, 09:53:06 am »
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So the quarterfinals start today right.  Here are my predictions for the tournament:

Czech Republic vs Portugal - Portugal

Spain vs France - Spain

Germany vs Greece - Germany

England vs Italy - Italy

Semifinals:
Portugal vs Spain - Spain
Germany vs Italy - Germany

Finals:
Germany vs Spain

Germany 2-1

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Davio

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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #105 on: June 21, 2012, 09:59:23 am »
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Czech vs Portugal

The Czech wil be hard pressed without Rosicky (medium injury) and I look for Portugal to put one past the goalie.
Portugal can be dangerous when they play as a team instead of 11 individuals and the last game vs Netherlands they regrouped very well after the 1-0. So: Portugal


Germany vs Greece

Germany, for the love of football, don't let the Greeks get a repeat of '04.


England vs Italy

England, they have surprised me this tournament. They seem to score easily although they're a bit unfortunate in the back. Italy just doesn't have the scoring power I think, but it's hard to call this one. The English never seem to go the distance anymore.


Spain vs France

Spain, their team is just a tad better than the French.


I agree with Yuma on the rest though, so Spain vs Germany in the finals and Germany winning.
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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #106 on: June 21, 2012, 02:20:56 pm »
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Czech vs Portugal

The Czech wil be hard pressed without Rosicky (medium injury) and I look for Portugal to put one past the goalie.
Portugal can be dangerous when they play as a team instead of 11 individuals and the last game vs Netherlands they regrouped very well after the 1-0. So: Portugal

Agree

Quote
Germany vs Greece

Germany, for the love of football, don't let the Greeks get a repeat of '04.
Agree, unless of course ...

Quote
England vs Italy

England, they have surprised me this tournament. They seem to score easily although they're a bit unfortunate in the back. Italy just doesn't have the scoring power I think, but it's hard to call this one. The English never seem to go the distance anymore.

Thats different to the mood here in England, we have looked really solid apart from a couple of lapses that cost us goals. However nobody is confident we can see where the goals are going to come from. Rooney is back and first choice striker and he looked woefully out of form against Ukraine, just lucky they gave us an easy one.

I can see this going to penalties, and we have gone out 5 out of 7 of the last tournaments in penalties I believe, or something stupid.

However, heart says we win this.


Quote
Spain vs France

Spain, their team is just a tad better than the French.


I agree with Yuma on the rest though, so Spain vs Germany in the finals and Germany winning.

Agree
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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #107 on: June 21, 2012, 05:21:53 pm »
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I think Italy should beat England. England was fine but not great in groups, and Italy impressed me against Spain. Also, it's the kind of team that plays better in high-stakes matches.

Speaking of which, I don't want to completely rule out a french win... but yeah, it's pretty damn unlikely. We do like playing against arrogant teams though, and Spain is certainly that.

Also, Portugal won. Ronaldo was good. Yawn.
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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #108 on: June 22, 2012, 03:13:02 am »
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lespeutere

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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #109 on: June 22, 2012, 05:21:29 am »
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Didn't see yesterday's match, unfortunately, but was not surprised by the outcome. Ronaldo provokes all the hate, but he doesn't deserve it. He finally starts to score in important international matches. In league matches he's been so impressive the last couple of years which makes me disagree with all those guys denying his playing ability. In my opinion he is at least as complete a player as Messi. I spent 8 months in England 4 years ago when he played for United and could follow the premiership more closely than most people here in Germany who talk rubbish about him.
For tonight I'm publicly betting against Germany (since when I bet on my favourite team, they'll lose - that's how Dortmund won the Bundesliga the last 2 years, actually: me betting against them in important (read: all) matches). Hoping for something different, though, obviously.

I think England - Italy will go to penalties - and then it's Italy, of course. England's just so aweful when it comes down to getting this ball in from 11 m.
So might France - Spain do, and there I just hope for France (because I predicted them as cup winners - based on their good performances in the last friedly matches). Hope got less and less, though..

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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #110 on: June 22, 2012, 07:47:46 am »
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Oh I think he deserves it.  He kind of relishes his villainous role -- no one hates him because he's bad, people hate him because he welcomes their hate.  Think LeBron James, except with absolutely zero desire to make people like him.
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lespeutere

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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #111 on: June 22, 2012, 09:19:59 am »
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Quote
His talent is, quite clearly, the central reason he is so despised by those who cannot call him their own.

Over the years I've more and more come to the conclusion that he's acting like Mourinho is, i.e. focusing most of peoples' attention on him so that the team/other players can work more focused.
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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #112 on: June 22, 2012, 09:43:57 am »
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A lot of these footballers suffer from the same pampering.
Nobody in their group dares to speak against the star out of fear of losing his share of the money that is being generated.

I see it with the Dutch players. They've become too cocky. Affelay has a big mouth because he plays at Barcelona, even though he's been injured most of the year and otherwise never plays. Robben is just an idiot and I wouldn't mind if he never plays for Holland again.

These stars are so used to being the center of their own universe that when they get together in the same room, they collide. Sometimes with cosmic consequences.

Luckily for Ronaldo, he's the only real star in the team. The others know about his qualities and accept it. If the rest of the team is willing to do this, it's no problem. If Pepe or Nani tries to speak up, some problems may arise.

I have to give credit to the Portuguese though, they seem focused. Something else I've noticed is that they seem to make less fouls than previous tournaments. Their team always used to play with a knife between their teeth, but it seems lessened. I don't know if the good results made them act more calm, but I like it. Of course sometimes someone will still act up, but it hasn't bothered me to this day.
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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #113 on: June 28, 2012, 08:46:27 pm »
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Today's match was my two ancestral homelands battling it out. I have a grandparent from both Germany and Italy.

It was a much more lively match than the Spain/Portugal game, thank goodness, and I was extremely surprised by the Italians.

They have improved much over the past bit. I have been skeptical of them ever since they lost to the US a few months back--granted without a few key players--but in that game they looked tired, worn down and ragged. But not in the semi-final.

It is too bad. I was looking forward to seeing Germany vs Spain. Italy could win it all, Spain looked weaker than usual in their last two games.
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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #114 on: June 29, 2012, 03:35:05 am »
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Just...loved.. watching...Pirlo.

Being a midfielder myself I know how hard it can be in practice, but he makes it seem so simple.
With one or two touches he can create a lot of time for himself and he always knows where the opponents are and how he can shake them off.

Man of the match imho. Of course Balotelli scored two goals, but I just like hard working midfielders better than lazy strikers.  :D
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lespeutere

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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #115 on: June 29, 2012, 08:04:23 am »
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They just deserved it. Played a lot smarter than we did.
So now I hope they can make it vs Spain.
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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #116 on: June 29, 2012, 08:25:38 am »
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Buffoon was pretty angry at his team after the match, and I think he's right -- Italy missed at least 3-4 easy easy chances in the second half. 
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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #117 on: June 29, 2012, 08:28:22 am »
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Buffoon was pretty angry at his team after the match, and I think he's right -- Italy missed at least 3-4 easy easy chances in the second half.
I liked this comment:
Quote from: Buffon
"When you can score seven goals against Germany, you have to score seven because if they come back to 2-2 they'll beat you 10-2 in extra-time.
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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #118 on: June 29, 2012, 09:00:37 am »
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UGH, im willing to bet Italy-Spain will be a snore fest

Although interestingly, has there ever been a major final where both goalkeepers were the captains?
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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #119 on: July 01, 2012, 05:29:38 pm »
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UGH, im willing to bet Italy-Spain will be a snore fest
I hope you didn't put any money on this bet  ;)
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Re: Euro 2012
« Reply #120 on: July 02, 2012, 11:58:50 am »
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Nope, but I didn't find it THAT thrilling, was quite one sided, especially after Italy went a man down.

Although if Italy could have score right after the break it would have been a lot different....
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