Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1] 2  All

Author Topic: Putting Your Opponent Out of His/Her Misery  (Read 15832 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

ashersky

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2343
  • 2013/2014/2015 Mafia Mod of the Year
  • Respect: +1516
    • View Profile
Putting Your Opponent Out of His/Her Misery
« on: June 07, 2012, 09:45:38 am »
0

I have a feeling this has been answered somewhere (most likely in the mega-civility declination tread), but a scan of topics going back six months didn't yield an answer, so...

Is it poor form to not end the game when you are assured of the win?

The situation would be when you are able to buy the last province/colony/third-pile card, and either already have the lead or would be ahead after the purchase, but don't.  Whether the point counter is on/off would play into this, I suppose, since not everyone is good at keeping track of points without it.

I run into this very often--I do not like to resign and will play a game out even though I'm way behind or even mathematically eliminated.  That said, I will help move a game to conclusion buy buying out piles when I can, so when I buy the penultimate province/colony/third pile card, I am ensuring my opponent's victory.  These generally aren't cases where acheivements are in play, either.  And yet, another another Gold instead of the final Village/Estate/Curse?

Is there a community consensus on this?
Logged
f.ds Mafia Board Moderator

2013, 2014, 2015 Mafia Mod of the Year
2015 f.ds Representative, World Forum Mafia Championships
2013, 2014 Mafia Player of the Year (Tie)

11x MVP: M30, M83, ZM16, M25, M38, M61, M76, RMM5, RMM41, RMM46, M51

Captain_Frisk

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1257
  • Respect: +1262
    • View Profile
Re: Putting Your Opponent Out of His/Her Misery
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2012, 09:58:14 am »
+3

I don't know that there is a consensus, but I do consider it to be poor form to be achievement hunting instead of ending the game.

That said, I'm sure that over my 5,000+ games, you'll probably find at least a hundred where I failed to end the game early.

*Edit* - Oh how I've missed pressing the edit button.  Added the word "find" to make my last sentence readable.
Logged
I support funsockets.... taking as much time as they need to get it right.

pingpongsam

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1760
  • Shuffle iT Username: pingpongsam
  • Respect: +776
    • View Profile
Re: Putting Your Opponent Out of His/Her Misery
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2012, 10:01:40 am »
0

In my opinion it is poor form. sometimes people are not aware they can end it by buying out a pile. Other times they are actively avoiding the last province or the last pile while accumulating VP with a substantial lead and a superior deck.

I'm certain I have overdone it a few times when I was truly uncertain of the score otherwise I don't see the point in continuing to play it out when I know I've won. Winning is the goal after all.
Logged
You are the brashest scum player on f.ds.

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9549
  • Respect: +10580
    • View Profile
Re: Putting Your Opponent Out of His/Her Misery
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2012, 10:18:11 am »
+1

Here's a discussion on this from a while back: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=2261.0

In my opinion, taking any extra turns after you could have ended with a win is rude (if it's on purpose; obviously you might not see that you can end it, or might not be sure that you are winning). But taking a bunch of extra actions on your last turn before ending it, or buying a bunch of pointless Copper with your extra buys after ending it, is not.
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

Fabian

  • 2012 Swedish Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 666
  • Respect: +542
    • View Profile
Re: Putting Your Opponent Out of His/Her Misery
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2012, 10:46:06 am »
+2

It annoys me when people do it by mistake, but I try to stifle it since, well, it's a mistake.

If someone did it on purpose I would consider it a huge huge dick move.
Logged

Captain_Frisk

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1257
  • Respect: +1262
    • View Profile
Re: Putting Your Opponent Out of His/Her Misery
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2012, 11:24:13 am »
0

Here's a discussion on this from a while back: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=2261.0

In my opinion, taking any extra turns after you could have ended with a win is rude (if it's on purpose; obviously you might not see that you can end it, or might not be sure that you are winning). But taking a bunch of extra actions on your last turn before ending it, or buying a bunch of pointless Copper with your extra buys after ending it, is not.

Agreed, but if I'm about to go off on another KC / scrying pool madness turn, if I have an option to simply buy the last province and win (and I notice) - I'll do that.  Might as well save us both 3 minutes.
Logged
I support funsockets.... taking as much time as they need to get it right.

Kahryl

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 323
  • Respect: +155
    • View Profile
Re: Putting Your Opponent Out of His/Her Misery
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2012, 04:02:29 pm »
0

It is definitely poor form. Extending the game is fine if you're maximizing your chance to win - for example, relentlessly village/torturing your opponent even after he's way behind is okay. But if you pass up a chance to end the game in your favor in order to max your score or something, that is a dick move. Always end the game in your favor if you have the chance.

I don't like to resign - I think if someone has set up a win he deserves to see it through completely - but I would definitely resign if I think he were intentionally stretching the game for no strategically valid reason.
Logged

Eevee

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1010
  • Shuffle iT Username: Eevee
  • A wild Eevee appears!
  • Respect: +865
    • View Profile
Re: Putting Your Opponent Out of His/Her Misery
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2012, 04:18:02 pm »
+4

Doing it accidentally is just poor play. Doing it on purpose is poor etiquette for sure.
Logged

rls22

  • Ambassador
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 32
  • Respect: +9
    • View Profile
Re: Putting Your Opponent Out of His/Her Misery
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2012, 04:22:49 pm »
+2

But taking a bunch of extra actions on your last turn before ending it, or buying a bunch of pointless Copper with your extra buys after ending it, is not.

I'm not sure I agree with this fully.  I mean, buying extra stuff with your extra buys is fine (e.g., a Province and a Duchy, if you only needed the Province to win).  But, at least a few times, I've been on the receiving end of someone who played out "a bunch of extra actions" when they had enough $ near the start of their turn to buy the last province and end it.  My philosophy tends to be, if you unnecessarily prolong the game on your last turn by more than 5-10 seconds, I will be (silently) annoyed with you.  I understand how tempting it is to want to play with your fun engine deck just one more turn (it's certainly tempting for me too), but begin respectful of your opponent's time is a good thing.
Logged

O

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 836
  • Respect: +605
    • View Profile
Re: Putting Your Opponent Out of His/Her Misery
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2012, 04:26:58 pm »
+5

I think finishing your final turn is often helpful in postgame analysis ("But you were only two points ahead in the end!" "Yea, I chose not to play that KC-KC-BridgeX3 I could have drawn").

Taking 1-2 extra turns when there's a clear way to win is slightly rude. Taking an extra turn instead of spending two minutes figuring out the optimal combination of Haggler gains and Border Village buys.. I really don't mind.
Logged

Kahryl

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 323
  • Respect: +155
    • View Profile
Re: Putting Your Opponent Out of His/Her Misery
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2012, 04:30:38 pm »
0

I think completing your turn even if it's unnecessary is fine. Wraps up the game more cleanly. And I'm not forced to slog through another turn of my own just to extend his enjoyment which is the main thing that would annoy me.
Logged

ecq

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 224
  • Respect: +162
    • View Profile
Re: Putting Your Opponent Out of His/Her Misery
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2012, 04:37:44 pm »
0

It's a very nice gesture to end your last turn ASAP, even if you have more actions to play.  It's annoying to sit through 2 minutes of engine wankery when the other guy could end it immediately.

It's less of a big deal to me when people don't end things on their turn when they could.  If they don't see it, there could a tiny chance I can still pull off a win.  If there's no chance for me to win, I resign, so there's no extra waiting.  I definitely don't think it's bad form to resign in a situation when they should have won outright the previous turn.
Logged

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9549
  • Respect: +10580
    • View Profile
Re: Putting Your Opponent Out of His/Her Misery
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2012, 04:59:25 pm »
+1

Here's a discussion on this from a while back: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=2261.0

In my opinion, taking any extra turns after you could have ended with a win is rude (if it's on purpose; obviously you might not see that you can end it, or might not be sure that you are winning). But taking a bunch of extra actions on your last turn before ending it, or buying a bunch of pointless Copper with your extra buys after ending it, is not.

Agreed, but if I'm about to go off on another KC / scrying pool madness turn, if I have an option to simply buy the last province and win (and I notice) - I'll do that.  Might as well save us both 3 minutes.

Quite an odd strategy that you are playing if your hand is KC, Scrying Pool, Gold, Gold, Silver.
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

Captain_Frisk

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1257
  • Respect: +1262
    • View Profile
Re: Putting Your Opponent Out of His/Her Misery
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2012, 05:34:29 pm »
0

Here's a discussion on this from a while back: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=2261.0

In my opinion, taking any extra turns after you could have ended with a win is rude (if it's on purpose; obviously you might not see that you can end it, or might not be sure that you are winning). But taking a bunch of extra actions on your last turn before ending it, or buying a bunch of pointless Copper with your extra buys after ending it, is not.

Agreed, but if I'm about to go off on another KC / scrying pool madness turn, if I have an option to simply buy the last province and win (and I notice) - I'll do that.  Might as well save us both 3 minutes.

Quite an odd strategy that you are playing if your hand is KC, Scrying Pool, Gold, Gold, Silver.

Hows this?  KC, HorseTraders, Scrying Pool, X, X
Logged
I support funsockets.... taking as much time as they need to get it right.

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9549
  • Respect: +10580
    • View Profile
Re: Putting Your Opponent Out of His/Her Misery
« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2012, 06:44:15 pm »
0

Here's a discussion on this from a while back: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=2261.0

In my opinion, taking any extra turns after you could have ended with a win is rude (if it's on purpose; obviously you might not see that you can end it, or might not be sure that you are winning). But taking a bunch of extra actions on your last turn before ending it, or buying a bunch of pointless Copper with your extra buys after ending it, is not.

Agreed, but if I'm about to go off on another KC / scrying pool madness turn, if I have an option to simply buy the last province and win (and I notice) - I'll do that.  Might as well save us both 3 minutes.

Quite an odd strategy that you are playing if your hand is KC, Scrying Pool, Gold, Gold, Silver.

Hows this?  KC, HorseTraders, Scrying Pool, X, X

Touché. I also lol that in that hand (depending on the cards that are X, I suppose), playing KC-Scrying Pool could cost you the game. Just playing Scrying Pool is safe, though.
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

DG

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4074
  • Respect: +2624
    • View Profile
Re: Putting Your Opponent Out of His/Her Misery
« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2012, 07:23:15 pm »
0

I don't think there's a consensus but you should probably try to finish games quickly once they're won. I think I recently told an opponent "if you don't reveal your province when I play my next tournament, I'll be able to end the game this turn" and sure enough no province was shown :).
Logged

DStu

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2627
  • Respect: +1490
    • View Profile
Re: Putting Your Opponent Out of His/Her Misery
« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2012, 08:46:14 am »
+4

I also liked finishing my last turn, even if I could end it before, but this game reminds me not to.
Logged

jhkokst

  • Pearl Diver
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13
  • Respect: +3
    • View Profile
Re: Putting Your Opponent Out of His/Her Misery
« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2012, 12:25:20 pm »
0

This thread compelled me to sign up and make my first post.  I'm level 29 on isotropic - competent, but not great.  I know when I make bad plays, when I'm lucky, and when my opponent is outplaying me etc.

I had this game the other day, that I thought exemplified poor form/etiquette on behalf of my opponent. It was the first time I really felt this way. http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120605-133551-e301ffed.html

I went minions, he went with a more elaborate engine involving KC (edit - I was wrong, no KC, just SP), scrying pool, and some other various cards.  By turn 15 or so, my deck ran out of steam and I began to focus on buying gardens.  At this point I did have a point lead.  However my opponents deck was finally clicking, and he was capable of purchasing 2 provinces a turn and running them out, perhaps with a garden or duchy ( or 2 to ensure his win, but a significant margin).  However, instead, on turn 17, he buys 3 sabatuers and proceeds to extend the game, trashing my deck each turn.  Effective - incredibly, but I also thought it was incredibly rude.  His turns took forever (scrying pool/KC), and then he would close each turn by trashing 3 of my cards.  He doesn't even end the game draining the provinces...

I can understand someone wanting to finish their last turn, or buying extra VPs during there last buy to ensure their win.  But making a conscious decision to prolong a game in order to trash your opponents deck...that kinda pushed me to the edge.  He said he was "playing it safe"...but there were many quicker ways to play it safe.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2012, 12:31:24 pm by jhkokst »
Logged

pingpongsam

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1760
  • Shuffle iT Username: pingpongsam
  • Respect: +776
    • View Profile
Re: Putting Your Opponent Out of His/Her Misery
« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2012, 12:26:55 pm »
0

I always use veto mode.

It used to be for Possession. Today it is for Scrying Pool.

And to go further off-topic; I like to veto out the actions. Folks who will tear you a new one in an engine game tend to really flounder with a lack of actions.
Logged
You are the brashest scum player on f.ds.

Cadence20

  • Herbalist
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6
  • Respect: +3
    • View Profile
Re: Putting Your Opponent Out of His/Her Misery
« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2012, 01:31:55 pm »
0

This thread compelled me to sign up and make my first post.  I'm level 29 on isotropic - competent, but not great.  I know when I make bad plays, when I'm lucky, and when my opponent is outplaying me etc.

I had this game the other day, that I thought exemplified poor form/etiquette on behalf of my opponent. It was the first time I really felt this way. http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120605-133551-e301ffed.html

I went minions, he went with a more elaborate engine involving KC (edit - I was wrong, no KC, just SP), scrying pool, and some other various cards.  By turn 15 or so, my deck ran out of steam and I began to focus on buying gardens.  At this point I did have a point lead.  However my opponents deck was finally clicking, and he was capable of purchasing 2 provinces a turn and running them out, perhaps with a garden or duchy ( or 2 to ensure his win, but a significant margin).  However, instead, on turn 17, he buys 3 sabatuers and proceeds to extend the game, trashing my deck each turn.  Effective - incredibly, but I also thought it was incredibly rude.  His turns took forever (scrying pool/KC), and then he would close each turn by trashing 3 of my cards.  He doesn't even end the game draining the provinces...

I can understand someone wanting to finish their last turn, or buying extra VPs during there last buy to ensure their win.  But making a conscious decision to prolong a game in order to trash your opponents deck...that kinda pushed me to the edge.  He said he was "playing it safe"...but there were many quicker ways to play it safe.

That opponent was me first of all.

You accused me of dragging out the game by buying 3 saboteurs. Keep in mind that at that point in the game you were up 2 provinces to none, and had more minions than me (7 to 3). I was absolutely making sure I would win the game.

I could've bought two provinces instead of 3 saboteurs but that would put us at even with me at a minion disadvantage.

Look at the final graph - I was only ahead in score for the final 3 turns (and I was buying out the provinces when possible, though there was one turn where I made a mistake and played a terminal before my +action cards). I felt you were being overly sensitive, considering you were ahead for almost all of the game.
Logged

jhkokst

  • Pearl Diver
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13
  • Respect: +3
    • View Profile
Re: Putting Your Opponent Out of His/Her Misery
« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2012, 01:45:15 pm »
0

I don't want to turn this discussion into an argument between the two of us.  But I think it is unfair to associate a point lead with who was actually in the dominant position.  You were choosing to buy more pools, more nobles, and more engine cards, and your engine was finally popping.  Your light houses resulted in constant hand defense, and you were pulling 16+ coin per turn.  I was barely making 4 -6 coin per turn, despite my minions, hence my choice to go gardens.  Had you drained the provinces instead of buying saboteurs, you would have had 36 points + your nobles + whatever other VP you had chosen to buy.  You probably could have cleaned the provinces in 3 -4 turns and picked up a few duchys to boot. Please note that most of my points at the end of the game were my gardens and estates, which were only the end result of you sabing my other victory points and minions.  I was lucky to even muster that much.  The odds of me getting all of the gardens to maximize points were slim to none.  Perhaps it wasn't clear to you, but you had the game won prior to the sabateurs.  Maybe because my deck was losing steam, only I realized this...hence my reaction when your strategy shifted to wrecking my deck.  I thought it was superfluous.



Logged

Robz888

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2641
  • Shuffle iT Username: Robz888
  • Respect: +3381
    • View Profile
Re: Putting Your Opponent Out of His/Her Misery
« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2012, 02:06:51 pm »
+3

I don't want to turn this discussion into an argument between the two of us.  But I think it is unfair to associate a point lead with who was actually in the dominant position.  You were choosing to buy more pools, more nobles, and more engine cards, and your engine was finally popping.  Your light houses resulted in constant hand defense, and you were pulling 16+ coin per turn.  I was barely making 4 -6 coin per turn, despite my minions, hence my choice to go gardens.  Had you drained the provinces instead of buying saboteurs, you would have had 36 points + your nobles + whatever other VP you had chosen to buy.  You probably could have cleaned the provinces in 3 -4 turns and picked up a few duchys to boot. Please note that most of my points at the end of the game were my gardens and estates, which were only the end result of you sabing my other victory points and minions.  I was lucky to even muster that much.  The odds of me getting all of the gardens to maximize points were slim to none.  Perhaps it wasn't clear to you, but you had the game won prior to the sabateurs.  Maybe because my deck was losing steam, only I realized this...hence my reaction when your strategy shifted to wrecking my deck.  I thought it was superfluous.

It looks to me like Cadence was just trying to win the game and took a reasonable approach to doing so. It's frustrating watching your opponent play a Scrying Pool deck when you don't, but... it's definitely legitimate.

I agree it's frustrating when an opponent extends the game for no reason. But the object is to win, not to win in the nicest way possible. Cadence's end-game strategy, brutal as it was, seems sound to me. And even if it wasn't a sound strategy, it was done for strategic reasons, not for spite.
Logged
I have been forced to accept that lackluster play is a town tell for you.

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4380
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: Putting Your Opponent Out of His/Her Misery
« Reply #22 on: June 08, 2012, 02:11:12 pm »
+1

So, I don't have a problem with just about anything in this area, except not ending the game in a win on a given turn, when you could do that, on that given turn. i.e. if there's some like 'well you can buy out the last 3 labs over the next 3 turns' to end it, forget it; 3 turns is a long time, even if I'm up a lot. I will continue to build my lead, if I think that gives me best winning chances. And it's very hard to have any kind of evidence that somebody thinks that they're buying more VP for some reason other than to increase their chances of winning. Indeed, even in most of the 'they could have ended it this turn' scenarios, I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they didn't realize that they could do that. Except when they play a mega-engine and with like 30 buys and a billion money, don't buy the last province, but just sit on you.
tl;dr - I give the benefit of the doubt.

olneyce

  • 2011 DS Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 245
  • Respect: +210
    • View Profile
Re: Putting Your Opponent Out of His/Her Misery
« Reply #23 on: June 08, 2012, 02:17:24 pm »
0

I'm really perplexed by your strategy in the linked game.  Why buy Gardens when you have a Minion deck???  Gardens wants bloated decks and Minion wants exactly the opposite.  I guess you had some unlucky distribution and didn't get to use your Minions for money a few times.  But it seems like once you have a Spice Merchant you can trash your deck down, buy two Lighthouses and get up to $8 pretty regularly.  And, you can have a revolving Lighthouse play which means most turns you can't get hit by the attacks.
Logged

jonts26

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2746
  • Shuffle iT Username: jonts
  • Respect: +3665
    • View Profile
Re: Putting Your Opponent Out of His/Her Misery
« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2012, 02:19:04 pm »
+5

In regards to not ending the game when you can win:

Hanlon's razor - Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2  All
 

Page created in 0.055 seconds with 21 queries.