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Author Topic: Putting Your Opponent Out of His/Her Misery  (Read 17183 times)

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ashersky

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Re: Putting Your Opponent Out of His/Her Misery
« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2012, 02:20:05 pm »
0

I appreciate all the commentary on the topic, and see the valid viewpoints from many here.  The type of situation I was asking about on particular resemble games like:

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120606-130506-13ac44d7.html

I was clearly beaten, so I bought the Penultimate Border Village after having bought the last card in two other piles to open the door to a final victory for my opponent.  Instead of ending it, he/she bought another colony, which padded the lead, sure, but was unnecessary since the game could have ended there.

I seem to run into that a lot and have to lose the game myself so I can move on to another.
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Re: Putting Your Opponent Out of His/Her Misery
« Reply #26 on: June 08, 2012, 02:23:34 pm »
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It's frustrating, but I would just post the comment jonts made in the post before yours.
And if it's really THAT frustrating, resign.

jonts26

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Re: Putting Your Opponent Out of His/Her Misery
« Reply #27 on: June 08, 2012, 02:38:38 pm »
+3

So in regards to playing out a full last turn when it's unnecessary -

For megaturn engines, it's extremely satisfying when everything comes together and you just buy out the provinces and duchies or spend 30 buys on coppers with 6 goons in play. In those kinds of situations, I will sit idly by while my opponent spends an extra minute or two buying everything, even if it's painful to sit though, because I enjoy it when I'm on the good side. When it's something less impressive, like a scry/hamlet engine which will just net me a province to end it, well I might just try to end it once I draw enough cash, but I still won't mind if my opponent plays it out, because that might still be something more fun for him.

I guess I'm mostly arguing from a utilitarian point of view. I don't think my time is really any more valuable than anyone elses in the world of dominion, so a little un-enjoyment for me is more than made up for by a lot of enjoyment for my opponent. And if you're the type of person to be extremely frustrated by someone playing out their last turn, man, lighten up.
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Kahryl

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Re: Putting Your Opponent Out of His/Her Misery
« Reply #28 on: June 08, 2012, 02:45:43 pm »
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I appreciate all the commentary on the topic, and see the valid viewpoints from many here.  The type of situation I was asking about on particular resemble games like:

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120606-130506-13ac44d7.html

I was clearly beaten, so I bought the Penultimate Border Village after having bought the last card in two other piles to open the door to a final victory for my opponent.  Instead of ending it, he/she bought another colony, which padded the lead, sure, but was unnecessary since the game could have ended there.

I seem to run into that a lot and have to lose the game myself so I can move on to another.

Consider the possibility that your opponent just didn't notice the 3-pile opportunity. I'm rated 25 or so and I miss that all the time.
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jhkokst

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Re: Putting Your Opponent Out of His/Her Misery
« Reply #29 on: June 08, 2012, 03:36:17 pm »
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I definitely did not play that game well.  When I purchased my first gardens, Cadence was consistently hitting 16, and I saw the game ending soon.  Although he only had 3 minions, he was generally playing them every turn and I was playing most hands with 4 cards.  I found myself cycling minions rather than building up money from them.  Perhaps that was bad luck, but it didn't feel like it. 

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jonts26

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Re: Putting Your Opponent Out of His/Her Misery
« Reply #30 on: June 08, 2012, 04:38:24 pm »
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Scrying Pool + Minion, well sometimes it's a nombo, but if you can play the actions you draw with the pool, then you don't mind discarding with minion. When you can use Minion for the discard once per turn though, it's incredibly mean. After several pools, you can ensure a bad card on top of the deck before you minion, meaning the other guy has effectively an outpost hand to work with each turn.
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jhkokst

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Re: Putting Your Opponent Out of His/Her Misery
« Reply #31 on: June 08, 2012, 05:08:21 pm »
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Last comment - re: Cadence, I swear.

He kicked my @$$.  I guess I felt that it was clear that he was winning pre-sabing me, hence the reason I posted in this thread.  I'll concede that it was not as obvious to him, because he wasn't playing my hands.  But to me, it did feel as if it was being dragged out.  Perhaps I should have resigned.
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Captain_Frisk

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Re: Putting Your Opponent Out of His/Her Misery
« Reply #32 on: June 08, 2012, 05:15:24 pm »
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In regards to not ending the game when you can win:

Hanlon's razor - Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

In researching that quote for Mafia III - it's apparently really attributed to Napolean!

I can say for sure -

The  # of times that I have failed to end a game because I failed to notice it (or was unsure) divided by the # Of times I kept playing because I either wanted to play with my shiny engine, or wanted to screw my opponent over is not a number, and that includes games against some opponents who I will leave nameless.

Even those players, I don't think they would intentionally do it.
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Tombolo

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Re: Putting Your Opponent Out of His/Her Misery
« Reply #33 on: June 25, 2012, 07:58:23 pm »
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And then there's this game:
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201206/25/game-20120625-094217-c68b77b2.html

I probably should've just resigned but decided to be nice.  He never said anything though, and in retrospect I regret my decision.
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ashersky

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Re: Putting Your Opponent Out of His/Her Misery
« Reply #34 on: November 12, 2012, 06:27:34 am »
+1

Not to resurrect my own topic, but man this is still frustrating.

It's like you are in a sword fight, and your opponent disarms you.  But instead of the noble beheading, he stabs you in both kidneys with daggers, then seals the wounds with fire, allowing all that waste that would have been filtered by those kidneys to now slowly fill your abdomen and poison you painfully, slowly from the inside.

Just three-pile, for mercy's sake.  Put me out of my misery.  If you are ranked higher than me, you do not fail to notice the opportunity to win.  Never.
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ipofanes

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Re: Putting Your Opponent Out of His/Her Misery
« Reply #35 on: November 12, 2012, 07:18:01 am »
+1

There's always resigning.

Except there isn't. You cannot resign during your opponent insisting on playing each Horse Trader and Border Village he drew with the Scrying Pool, only to resurrect them with the next Scrying Pool until the cows come home, instead of picking up the last Pearl Diver and be done with it.
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: Putting Your Opponent Out of His/Her Misery
« Reply #36 on: November 12, 2012, 03:31:08 pm »
+1

There's always resigning.

Except there isn't. You cannot resign during your opponent insisting on playing each Horse Trader and Border Village he drew with the Scrying Pool, only to resurrect them with the next Scrying Pool until the cows come home, instead of picking up the last Pearl Diver and be done with it.

You can hit the exit link on the bottom of the page. It'll resign for you when your turn comes up.
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ashersky

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Re: Putting Your Opponent Out of His/Her Misery
« Reply #37 on: November 12, 2012, 04:30:38 pm »
+1

There's always resigning.

Except there isn't. You cannot resign during your opponent insisting on playing each Horse Trader and Border Village he drew with the Scrying Pool, only to resurrect them with the next Scrying Pool until the cows come home, instead of picking up the last Pearl Diver and be done with it.

You can hit the exit link on the bottom of the page. It'll resign for you when your turn comes up.

This is true.  But then I feel that exiting/resigning is generally disrespectful to your opponent if the game has been otherwise civil and of a normal speed.  I know some will resign once the game is lost, even if it isn't endable on the current turn--that's not a great policy, either.
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ConMan

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Re: Putting Your Opponent Out of His/Her Misery
« Reply #38 on: November 12, 2012, 05:36:24 pm »
+2

If I know I can win, I'll take the win rather than dragging it out. On the other side of things, if I know I can't win - my opponent has gotten half the points in the game or my engine is completely unable to fire - I will post an acknowledgement and resign because I figure both of us have better things to do with our time than watching the inevitable.
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Re: Putting Your Opponent Out of His/Her Misery
« Reply #39 on: November 12, 2012, 05:53:35 pm »
+1

If I know I can win, I'll take the win rather than dragging it out. On the other side of things, if I know I can't win - my opponent has gotten half the points in the game or my engine is completely unable to fire - I will post an acknowledgement and resign because I figure both of us have better things to do with our time than watching the inevitable.
Exactly. Saying GG and then exiting is a better way to quit than just exiting.

But ashersky has a point: Don't just mess around with a secure win and only 1 Province left. Just end it already.
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ipofanes

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Re: Putting Your Opponent Out of His/Her Misery
« Reply #40 on: November 13, 2012, 02:38:44 am »
+1

There's always resigning.

Except there isn't. You cannot resign during your opponent insisting on playing each Horse Trader and Border Village he drew with the Scrying Pool, only to resurrect them with the next Scrying Pool until the cows come home, instead of picking up the last Pearl Diver and be done with it.

You can hit the exit link on the bottom of the page. It'll resign for you when your turn comes up.

Thanks. Didn't know that. But my first statement still holds.

Much has been written about resigning. As a former chess and go player, I've never seen the point of not resigning when you've lost.
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Re: Putting Your Opponent Out of His/Her Misery
« Reply #41 on: November 13, 2012, 08:38:31 am »
+1

As a former chess and go player, I've never seen the point of not resigning when you've lost.

i think there is much that can be learned by playing out the game. watching and learning from what your opponent does, observing how your deck played out, practicing adjusting strategies while behind, etc.
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Davio

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Re: Putting Your Opponent Out of His/Her Misery
« Reply #42 on: November 13, 2012, 09:04:56 am »
+1

As a former chess and go player, I've never seen the point of not resigning when you've lost.

i think there is much that can be learned by playing out the game. watching and learning from what your opponent does, observing how your deck played out, practicing adjusting strategies while behind, etc.
Maybe there should be an option once a player has won mathematically (or will be able to do so during his current turn): "John wins, play on?" to which players can either answer yes or no. Game only continues if all players answer yes.

Still, I can somewhat understand it if you've built a beautiful engine that you want to enjoy it to the fullest so you'll play your entire turn to get as most points as possible. Heck, there are lots of players that don't check the score so they only know they've won or lost after their last turn. It doesn't make sense to start from a hand with $2, play 20 actions and buy 1 Pearl Diver to end the game though.

I don't find it to be a big problem in reality. Once I've drawn my deck, I'll stop playing useless - not providing any money -cantrips, like Lab, Great Hall, etc.
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ipofanes

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Re: Putting Your Opponent Out of His/Her Misery
« Reply #43 on: November 13, 2012, 09:43:04 am »
+1


Still, I can somewhat understand it if you've built a beautiful engine that you want to enjoy it to the fullest so you'll play your entire turn to get as most points as possible.
In which case I find resigning mildly annoying at times, but defendable.

It is a bit like a go match with full handicap against a much stronger player. I tend to resign during midgame even if I am not behind yet, but the dan will overtake me in the endgame with ease.

Heck, there are lots of players that don't check the score so they only know they've won or lost after their last turn.

In which case resigning is the appropriate answer.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Putting Your Opponent Out of His/Her Misery
« Reply #44 on: November 13, 2012, 09:55:15 am »
+1

There's always resigning.

Except there isn't. You cannot resign during your opponent insisting on playing each Horse Trader and Border Village he drew with the Scrying Pool, only to resurrect them with the next Scrying Pool until the cows come home, instead of picking up the last Pearl Diver and be done with it.

You can hit the exit link on the bottom of the page. It'll resign for you when your turn comes up.

I'm not sure, but does doing this give up your first-turn advantage for the next game though? Seems it would...
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zahlman

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Re: Putting Your Opponent Out of His/Her Misery
« Reply #45 on: November 13, 2012, 11:35:12 am »
+2

Maybe there should be an option once a player has won mathematically (or will be able to do so during his current turn): "John wins, play on?" to which players can either answer yes or no. Game only continues if all players answer yes.

There are probably relatively few boards on which this can easily be proven by a computer algorithm.

Anyway, just wanted to note that I sometimes have to take a couple of extra turns in spots where I'm pretty sure I have a lock, but where I'm aware that certain surprises could come up if I "almost end" it now. City games and Goons are probably the most obvious cases.

That said, I do check the score all the time, and sometimes I'll be sitting there seemingly forever at the beginning of my Buy phase on a late-game turn, because I have to calculate whether I can actually pile out and also grab enough VP, and also decide, if I can't, whether I want to just take as many VP as possible, do something funky with the PPR (or PPPR, etc.), get more engine components and let the other guy bring it close enough to ending that I can end it, etc. etc. Some games are just deep like that.

Quote
I don't find it to be a big problem in reality. Once I've drawn my deck, I'll stop playing useless - not providing any money -cantrips, like Lab, Great Hall, etc.

Yeah, I have an issue with that sometimes... "oh yeah BTW I still have 5 more Scrying Pools, I still want you to keep that Curse".

It is a bit like a go match with full handicap against a much stronger player. I tend to resign during midgame even if I am not behind yet, but the dan will overtake me in the endgame with ease.

Since we're on the topic and Go players are hard to find: speaking from personal experience, it is totally possible to get to shodan without really doing that "counting" thing. :)
« Last Edit: November 13, 2012, 11:36:49 am by zahlman »
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Putting Your Opponent Out of His/Her Misery
« Reply #46 on: November 13, 2012, 04:55:20 pm »
+1

There's always resigning.

Except there isn't. You cannot resign during your opponent insisting on playing each Horse Trader and Border Village he drew with the Scrying Pool, only to resurrect them with the next Scrying Pool until the cows come home, instead of picking up the last Pearl Diver and be done with it.

You can hit the exit link on the bottom of the page. It'll resign for you when your turn comes up.

I'm not sure, but does doing this give up your first-turn advantage for the next game though? Seems it would...

Hitting Exit does give up that advantage.
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ipofanes

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Re: Putting Your Opponent Out of His/Her Misery
« Reply #47 on: November 14, 2012, 05:29:45 am »
+1

Since we're on the topic and Go players are hard to find: speaking from personal experience, it is totally possible to get to shodan without really doing that "counting" thing. :)

That's what I love about the game, you can get very far playing on a whim if you have a good eye for shape and much experience what works and what doesn't. I don't know if you can reach actually shodan without even really doing that "reading" thing, but 5k is not a problem (according to my personal experience). I'd suspect that unnecessary gote for that group in the corner which was alive anyway is going to bite if it happens too often.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2012, 05:31:09 am by ipofanes »
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zahlman

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Re: Putting Your Opponent Out of His/Her Misery
« Reply #48 on: November 14, 2012, 03:06:27 pm »
+1

Since we're on the topic and Go players are hard to find: speaking from personal experience, it is totally possible to get to shodan without really doing that "counting" thing. :)

That's what I love about the game, you can get very far playing on a whim if you have a good eye for shape and much experience what works and what doesn't. I don't know if you can reach actually shodan without even really doing that "reading" thing, but 5k is not a problem (according to my personal experience). I'd suspect that unnecessary gote for that group in the corner which was alive anyway is going to bite if it happens too often.

I can't say I know, but I will say that the time I don't spend counting is time I spend reading. And with sufficient training, you'd be amazed what you can read in 10 or 20s :)
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ycz6

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Re: Putting Your Opponent Out of His/Her Misery
« Reply #49 on: November 20, 2012, 05:58:06 pm »
0

The only time I really get annoyed at an opponent's last-turn engine wankery is when the engine contains a card like Oracle or Margrave, where I have to make decisions repeatedly during the turn.
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