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Author Topic: The Over-hard Counter  (Read 7294 times)

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WanderingWinder

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The Over-hard Counter
« on: June 04, 2012, 04:40:10 pm »
+3

Now we know there are soft counters and there are hard counters. And then there are what I call over-hard counters to attacks, i.e. it's actually beneficial to me that you attacked me. One obvious case is watchtower vs. Torturer. If I want to keep my hand, I just trash that curse. If I want to be able to increase my card draw because I have a couple junk cards in my hand, I can actually use your attack to help me there.

Anyway, probably the best-known of these, which I've heard as 'the perfect counter' and 'too good a counter' is Horse Traders to minion. And it's really good. But, oftentimes, you need to do something a little more, because HT+money is not such a hot strategy. So actually fairly often you end up buying both minions and HT - they work decently well together, especially with some villages thrown in. Here is a game which was very satisfying to play, where I used scheme to up the ante on the HT goodness, getting six card hands and a nice HT benefit over... and over... and over again, and notching one of the more satisfying wins of my 'career'.

jonts26

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Re: The Over-hard Counter
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2012, 06:55:44 pm »
+2

Often Menagerie for Militia/Goons (NOT Ghost Ship)
Trader for cursing attacks
Maybe Peddler for Swindler (once peddlers run out and you need a way to get a lot of peddlers)
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carstimon

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Re: The Over-hard Counter
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2012, 12:19:21 am »
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When I read this I thought, "but wasn't there something wrong with using scheme in minion games?"

...Oh, right.
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sitnaltax

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Re: The Over-hard Counter
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2012, 01:06:08 am »
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I remember a game where several times I was sitting with Jack of all Trades in my hand, hoping my opponent would Ghost Ship me so I could topdeck a victory card, discard it, and get a replacement. I think it hit twice, which was enough.
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gorgonstar

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Re: The Over-hard Counter
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2012, 01:42:13 am »
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Moat can be pretty fun against minion, especially in a multi-player game.  If you like your hand reveal a moat and keep it.  If your hand is trash don't reveal the moat and draw 4 new cards.  This is especially effective if there are cursing attacks in the game, since it is easy for you hand to be pure junk.  In a multi-player game there can be multiple attacks every round so buying a moat makes a lot of sense.

Here's a 3p game where my 5 moats defend well against minion, goons and sea hag.
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120516-145904-aa5acdbd.html
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GendoIkari

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Re: The Over-hard Counter
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2012, 03:43:13 pm »
+2

Well HT in general is an over-hard counter to a lot of attacks. Once Curses run out, every play of Familiar, Witch, etc, helps you if you have one in hand. Secret Chamber, too, though less so.
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Farb

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Re: The Over-hard Counter
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2012, 08:04:53 pm »
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Secret Chamber vs. Mountebank. 

Opp plays Mountebank, reveal Secret Chamber, put Secret chamber back on deck and put a curse or 2 in hand, then discard curse. Maybe not Overhard, but fun nonetheless.
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eHalcyon

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Re: The Over-hard Counter
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2012, 09:50:22 pm »
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Secret Chamber vs. Mountebank. 

Opp plays Mountebank, reveal Secret Chamber, put Secret chamber back on deck and put a curse or 2 in hand, then discard curse. Maybe not Overhard, but fun nonetheless.

That doesn't help you though.  This topic is looking for counters such that getting attacked can end up actually benefiting you.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: The Over-hard Counter
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2012, 10:03:03 pm »
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Actually, the topic was to talk about the game in the OP. But people have been using it to list a bunch of over-hard counters. Now, secret chamber sorta can be over-hard, in that you can mess with your shuffle/deck distribution, but... eh, not really.
HT is nice for attacks that don't actually do anything at some point, as mentioned.
Watchtower is over-hard to torturer.
Actually, I think HT to minion, Watchtower torturer, multiple HTs to any discard attack, and trader to ambassador/cursers are the only truly over-hard things, in that they stop the attack totally and give a benefit. The others are... over-soft? In that they can somtimes help out more than the attack hurts, but they don't stop the attacks effectiveness.

theory

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Re: The Over-hard Counter
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2012, 10:35:33 pm »
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JoaT vs Ghost Ship, as mentioned above
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DG

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Re: The Over-hard Counter
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2012, 07:09:24 am »
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Tunnel can be a hard counter to many attacks.
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jotheonah

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Re: The Over-hard Counter
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2012, 08:09:11 am »
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Well, obv. Trader vs Mountebank is especially brutal. It leads to the question "Is it worth it to buy a Mountebank that has a chance of giving my opponent 2 silvers?"
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WanderingWinder

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Re: The Over-hard Counter
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2012, 08:09:30 am »
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JoaT vs Ghost Ship, as mentioned above
JoaT isn't going to be over-hard again, by the definition I say in post 8. Often it's better than not being attacked. But not always (my hand is JoaT, gold, gold, silver, silver, and I get GSed. I now can't filter what was the top card of my deck before - I WILL draw it, and maybe miss my colony for it).

Tunnel can be a hard counter to many attacks.
Clearly you don't have the same definition of hard counter that I do. By mine, tunnel is never hard.

DG

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Re: The Over-hard Counter
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2012, 08:14:06 am »
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Quote
And then there are what I call over-hard counters to attacks, i.e. it's actually beneficial to me that you attacked me.

If I've got a deck of copper, estates, and a tunnel then that's a hard counter to a thief.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: The Over-hard Counter
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2012, 08:20:15 am »
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Quote
And then there are what I call over-hard counters to attacks, i.e. it's actually beneficial to me that you attacked me.

If I've got a deck of copper, estates, and a tunnel then that's a hard counter to a thief.
No, it's an 'over-soft' counter (that's what I call it in reply 8). It certainly doesn't stop the thief attack, ever, though it can give you a benefit from it greater than the negative side that attack.

GendoIkari

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Re: The Over-hard Counter
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2012, 11:41:09 am »
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Nothing vs Thief or Pirate ship is an over-hard counter. You usually benefit from the opponent playing them! ;D
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WanderingWinder

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Re: The Over-hard Counter
« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2012, 11:48:11 am »
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Nothing vs Thief or Pirate ship is an over-hard counter. You usually benefit from the opponent playing them! ;D
No. No it's not. It doesn't stop the attack, so it can't be hard, and actually... you do realize that these aren't totally worthless cards, right? Like, on a board with nothing on it but these cards and money, you play BM-thief... actually buying some thieves.

DStu

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Re: The Over-hard Counter
« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2012, 11:49:49 am »
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Nothing vs Thief or Pirate ship is an over-hard counter. You usually benefit from the opponent playing them! ;D
No. No it's not. It doesn't stop the attack, so it can't be hard,
I bet you don't get them convinced of your notion of "hard".
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WanderingWinder

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Re: The Over-hard Counter
« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2012, 12:02:11 pm »
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But that's what a hard counter is... apart form my more fanciful 'over-hard' and significantly more fanciful 'over-soft'....

axlemn

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Re: The Over-hard Counter
« Reply #19 on: June 09, 2012, 09:18:29 pm »
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Overly-hard counters are difficult to find... 

Library to ghost ship?  There are some rare times when you're better off passing your library to the next hand or you have a dead action you'd like to skip over.  Like another library.  And it literally never hurts. 

Debatably goons / attacks to possession.
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DStu

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Re: The Over-hard Counter
« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2012, 02:43:00 am »
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No terminal can be overhard because it costs you the action.
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Lekkit

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Re: The Over-hard Counter
« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2012, 06:29:32 am »
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I guess Tactician is Borderline to over-hard counter to Ghost Ship.
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cherdano

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Re: The Over-hard Counter
« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2012, 06:45:47 am »
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I don't want to get into the semantics over "overhard", but there are many counters that are good enough that you get a net benefit from being attacked.
Fool's gold or treasure against ghost ship. Library to militia/goons. Combination of secret chamber + scrying pool against scrying pool (or spy). Sometimes menagerie against milita/goons.

I don't think they are that rare.
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brokoli

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Re: The Over-hard Counter
« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2012, 07:15:27 am »
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Fool's gold or treasure against ghost ship.

Fool's gold against margrave, rather...
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qmech

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Re: The Over-hard Counter
« Reply #24 on: June 11, 2012, 05:29:05 pm »
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Either can be good.  The technique with Ghost Ships is to push Fool's Golds back until they usefully collide.
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