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[Graystripe77]

I've recently had a couple games against players who got mad when i used the point counter right before my last buy to see if i could win. They said I was cheating, and that the point counter should be taken away. Anyone have any opinion on this?

[Thisisnotasmile]

Here we go again.

Different people have different opinions of point counters. DougZ has done a pretty good job of altering isotropic to allow for people on both sides of the argument to play the way they like. I, personally, do not like playing with the point counter, so I prohibit it when I automatch, and do not enable it when I specify opponents. I completely understand the arguments from the other side, and so I accept that some people will use point counters. I no longer have to play with them so that is fine. Now all we need is for the use of third-party point counters to die out and isotropic will be perfect.

I would suggest that you had every right to check the point counter in the games you mention, provided we are talking about the isotropic-implemented counter, as your opponents had willingly entered into a game that used the point counter. Isotropic's interface lets you know this beforehand, so there is no argument really.

[Stoc]

Yeah, I agree 100% with TINAS.

I don't like it, and I choose not to use it. However, I appreciate the fact that Isotropic has integrated it, and given me the option to play without it. I never had any problem with people who want to use it using it, but I was miffed the first time I entered a game where the 3rd party point counter did not have a !disable option.

[rspeer]

In every online game, everywhere, there are people who would rather shout "OMG HAX" than admit that they have lost a fair game. Don't pander to them.

It reminds me of a game I played yesterday where my opponent called me a "fucking game ruiner" (and not in a joking way) because I played Possession.

I personally like the point counter. It lets you play quicker games with more endgame strategy because you don't have to be counting points all the time. I understand that there are people who don't like it, and they are welcome to make sure their games don't use it.

[drg]

If you're using one and your opponent clearly doesn't want you to use it, it's basically cheating.  If both players are happy to use it, it's fine.

[michaeljb]

If opponents really thought it was cheating, they should have said something about it at the beginning of the game. Sounds basically like what rspeer is saying, they go along with it until the end, then it's "OMG HAX." To me, that's just whining and being a sore loser.

[Elyv]

I never use it, but don't care if my opponents do. That said, even the ones with the point counter usually don't use it, oddly.

[rspeer]

How would you tell if your opponent is using the point counter? The built-in one doesn't give any indication of when you're looking at it, and the browser extension shows the current point count on the screen to the player running it. (!status is there so the other player can see it.)

[Elyv]

How would you tell if your opponent is using the point counter? The built-in one doesn't give any indication of when you're looking at it, and the browser extension shows the current point count on the screen to the player running it. (!status is there so the other player can see it.)

I've never used it, so I didn't realize that.

[danshep]

Losing due to a slight miscounting points can be disappointing to both players.

For example here: http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110610-002704-f2937260.html

My opponent called this a "Bad win". I knew my opponent had trashed his estates and thought that I hadn't managed to trash any of mine (as I'd been cursing since the game started and I couldn't get an estate+chapel draw). My engine had just kicked in, and if I had just stayed on the province run, I probably would have won, but I went for the game end thinking points were even.

Even without the tracker, I could've figured out that I wasn't going to win by looking in the trash pile and double-checking my count, but I hate to leave my opponent waiting. If I had the tracker on in that game, as simple !points (or is it !status? I've only used it a couple of times) would've let us keep going and see how the game should have ended.

I'll always have the point tracker on (unless I forget to tick it, because I'm easily distracted), because when I'm playing I often can't give 100% of my attention to the game, so taking the mechanical part of the game away and letting me focus on strategy makes the game much better.

[Kirian]

How would you tell if your opponent is using the point counter? The built-in one doesn't give any indication of when you're looking at it, and the browser extension shows the current point count on the screen to the player running it. (!status is there so the other player can see it.)

The addon, as you mention, gives you the choice to use !status if your opponent is running it.  (It can also have !disable but the addon author allowed that option to be disabled, which is one of the annoyances alluded to above.)  The built-in counter is right on the info page (last line on each player's status), and if you're not checking the info page for other things several times a game, then you're not playing well.

[WanderingWinder]

How would you tell if your opponent is using the point counter? The built-in one doesn't give any indication of when you're looking at it, and the browser extension shows the current point count on the screen to the player running it. (!status is there so the other player can see it.)

The addon, as you mention, gives you the choice to use !status if your opponent is running it.  (It can also have !disable but the addon author allowed that option to be disabled, which is one of the annoyances alluded to above.)  The built-in counter is right on the info page (last line on each player's status), and if you're not checking the info page for other things several times a game, then you're not playing well.

You could actually just memorize everything that's on the info page, with the only exception (I believe) being what's in the black market at the beginning of the game.

I don't really care so much about the point counter, though I do think that if you're using a plug-in one, it should a) be available to both players and b) be disablable (<-that should be a word). If I were being cutthroat, I would insist upon not having it. Per the rules, you can't have one. But also per the rules, you shouldn't be able to have paper or anything either, and that's really unenforceable. But mostly Isotropic has a very friendly atmosphere, and I'm fine with that. If I were being really cutthroat, I'd hide any money I wasn't playing, too. But that really bogs the game down. I imagine that I keep track of stuff better than most of my opponents, and that I could do even better if I actually concentrated hard, though again this *can* sap some of the enjoyment. Also, I'm lazy. And it seems to me that the people that use the counters often don't check them - even the built-in ones based on how badly a lot of the lower-rateds play the endgame (though some of this is just poor endgame play in general, foundation built on the PPR). That being said, I blindly took the last duchy (the third pile!) the other day rather than the last province, and lost by a point. I don't know if I've ever felt more stupid.

[Teproc]

I use the point tracker (the isotropic included one) because I'm too lazy to count complicated VPs (Vineyards typically), but I do think it is varying from the original game of Dominion. Then my laziness comes in and I play with it anyway. But I understand people requesting not to play with it.

The good thing at least is that now that the log only show the latest turns, it isn't hhypocritical to disable point counter (as before, you could simply do a quick CTRL F for simple VPs).

[shark_bait]

In my opinion, I don't like using the point counter.  When playing with friends, they don't allow me to go through my deck and count up every single green card before I decide to buy the last province.  Why should I have that luxury when playing isotropic?  However, if someone wants to have a counter for VP chips, go for it, those don't remain hidden during play.

[Auroch]

To the original question, Yes.

and @shark: The number of VP chips you have is already on the info page.

[variance]

I use the point counter because without it I cannot keep score.  I feel it is cheating since I would lose alot more without it.  I should stop using it so I learn how to keep track myself and improve my game.

[painted_cow]

In games without garden I dont really care for point counter or not. I only dislike this in garden games, where you can precisely plan on how to end on piles etc., which you cant do in a real game.

[keithjgrant]

In games without garden I dont really care for point counter or not. I only dislike this in garden games, where you can precisely plan on how to end on piles etc., which you cant do in a real game.

Ooh, good point.

[Stoc]

I think a lot of people are more 'scared' of keeping track than they really should be. For many, many games it's as easy as looking at the number of provinces remaining combined with the knowledge of how many you yourself have bought.

VP chips are on the info page.
Fairgrounds are pretty easy to calculate on the fly using the #s remaining in the kingdom piles.
For gardens, you can see the number of cards remaining in your draw pile on the info page (and I believe the rules allow you to count your draw deck at anytime). Just wait for a reshuffle and count the draw deck + 5 for your current hand.
Vinyards are probably the hardest, but still very doable... and it doesn't come up all that often.

[Kuildeous]

In games without garden I dont really care for point counter or not. I only dislike this in garden games, where you can precisely plan on how to end on piles etc., which you cant do in a real game.

I believe that technically you could, if you count your deck. That is legal (I believe) and is even a requirement during play if anyone should ever actually use a Philosopher's Stone.

But, counting your deck out every few turns would get very annoying (one reason I never buy Philosopher's Stone), and I'd be pretty miffed if my opponent did that.

[painted_cow]

I know, that you can count your deck and look the info page after reshuffle, but this doesnt really help, when the opponent also have gardens (can you count them in real life?) etc. Also in gardendecks you can sometimes
wait long for a reshuffle. With the +buys in such decks its quite difficult to find the right point for an ending according to the additional points gained in some turns by reaching the next 10 card-mark.

[Mean Mr Mustard]

I think the system is fine.  I use a counter but view it a crutch.  I allow my opponents to disable it, and my game has improved by playing those few who do use the !disable command.

I was fairly certain that others were using hidden counters and that is why I started using one myself.

[chwhite]

I don't use the counter, but I also don't mind playing with people who do.  It's usually not that hard to keep track of points unless you have things like Gardens or Fairgrounds or lots of VP chips, and if my opponent(s) know and I don't, then I just look at it as an extra little challenge.

I do think that it is poor form to have a counter which is both a) unannounced, and b) not disable-able, because that's inconsiderate to the people who feel strongly about not playing with point counters.  But that's really just a matter of general principle, and it doesn't bother me as such.

[HLennartz]

I don't think it's cheating at all. To me calling it that is completely absurd, like saying that "playing while wearing glasses" or "paying attention to your opponent's buys" is cheating.

Point counters don't give any special access to hidden knowledge. What people buy is open knowledge; point counters just help you remember it better. Before the Dominion point counter existed, I used to always track point counts via buys/trashing in a Notepad window opened right next to the browser. It didn't even make my opponent wait longer, since I did it on his turn. The point counter just makes this process more convenient.

Personally, I think point counters greatly improve the Dominion experience by focusing more on strategy, in a more Chess-like way, not on memorization.

[Saucery]

Memorization is part of the skill of dominion in the same way that card counting is in most card-based games. I also absolutely think having a card tracker which tells you what's left in your deck would be cheating and the point counter is virtually the same thing.

The fact that both players are using it, or that a player can cheat on his own regardless because it's an online game, doesn't change what it is.

[rrenaud]

I refuse to get sucked into this argument again .

[WanderingWinder]

Before the Dominion point counter existed, I used to always track point counts via buys/trashing in a Notepad window opened right next to the browser. It didn't even make my opponent wait longer, since I did it on his turn. The point counter just makes this process more convenient.

Personally, I think point counters greatly improve the Dominion experience by focusing more on strategy, in a more Chess-like way, not on memorization.

Point counters are illegal under the official, published rules, and what you were doing is as well. If everybody agrees to this variant though, again, I don't have any problem with it - the point is for everyone to have fun and enjoy their experience.
I must point out though, that there is A LOT of memorization in chess.

[rspeer]

Saucery. "Cheating" is a very strong accusation to cast so lightly, and here it makes no sense.

All players know before the game whether there will be a point counter, and when it's available, it's available to every player. It can't possibly be cheating if every player in the game agrees to it. It's called a "house rule".

[Saucery]

Might as well start off with 4 golds; as long as everyone does it it's fine right? If you don't like the term cheating how about 'playing fun mode'.

[rspeer]

Do you honestly not know what a house rule is? If everyone agreed it was more fun to play with 4 golds in the starting deck, then it is within their right to play that way. Your example is silly (intentionally, I suspect) because we know that game wouldn't actually be more fun.

[theory]

We've seen this topic go far enough.  It's been hashed and rehashed on BGG endlessly to no useful benefit.

Locked.