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Author Topic: Bob's winning deck  (Read 10308 times)

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jomini

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Bob's winning deck
« on: June 02, 2012, 04:59:33 pm »
+3

Bob is playing Dominion and losing badly; each of his two opponents has a 54 VP lead on Bob. There are no VP chip cards nor any alternate VP cards (no colonies) in the kingdom; there is no black market in the kingdom. Only the duchy pile has been exhausted. All mats and play areas are empty. Bob shuffles his deck and draws a random hand, face down. At the start of his turn, Bob looks at his hand, smiles and says "Good game" assured he will win regardless of what luck happens next.

What is Bob's deck?


Notes:
The other players can have ANY cards (barring alternate VP/black market) in their hands/decks/discards; it doesn't matter they will still lose.
The other players can use their actions and buys in ANY legal fashion; it doesn't matter they will still lose.

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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: Bob's winning deck
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2012, 05:16:41 pm »
+10

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Morgrim7

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Re: Bob's winning deck
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2012, 07:17:58 pm »
0

Wait, what if they play Possesion?
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Dominion Notation: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7265.msg206246#msg206246

jomini

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Re: Bob's winning deck
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2012, 07:25:10 pm »
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Morgrim: Possession does not allow them to win.
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Morgrim7

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Re: Bob's winning deck
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2012, 07:35:31 pm »
0

Well, the cards in hand do not matter, the opponent could play the KC Masq pin.
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"Oh sweet merciful heavens.

I sit here, lost amongst the cloud, that which is the brain of the Morgrim Mod. Perhaps I will learn the inner workings of that storied mind. Perhaps I will simply go mad.

Mad, I tell you.

Maaaaaaaaaaaaad." -Voltgloss
Dominion Notation: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7265.msg206246#msg206246

Galzria

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Re: Bob's winning deck
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2012, 07:37:36 pm »
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Well, the cards in hand do not matter, the opponent could play the KC Masq pin.

Not 2 player. Don't think the pin works 3 player.
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

O

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Re: Bob's winning deck
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2012, 07:37:43 pm »
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Well, the cards in hand do not matter, the opponent could play the KC Masq pin.

3p +they both have 54 vp leads....
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Powerman

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Re: Bob's winning deck
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2012, 07:37:54 pm »
0

Um, couldn't the players just end the game before Bob gets a turn?  OR is it already Bob's turn?
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Galzria

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Re: Bob's winning deck
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2012, 07:38:46 pm »
0

I think it's Bob's turn now.
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

Morgrim7

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Re: Bob's winning deck
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2012, 07:42:27 pm »
0

Bob was holding this card:
Winner
$1 Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
When you play this, you win the gme.
This card, once drawn, may not be discarded, trashed, or passed.
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"Oh sweet merciful heavens.

I sit here, lost amongst the cloud, that which is the brain of the Morgrim Mod. Perhaps I will learn the inner workings of that storied mind. Perhaps I will simply go mad.

Mad, I tell you.

Maaaaaaaaaaaaad." -Voltgloss
Dominion Notation: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7265.msg206246#msg206246

WanderingWinder

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Re: Bob's winning deck
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2012, 07:53:09 pm »
0

Seems to me the intended solution MIGHT be 2 King's Court, 2 Saboteur, 5 highways, and several Market/Grand Market. i.e. you highway everything down, to where provinces cost 3, KC a KC a market kind of card (well you don't really need to KC these... just need 4 buys at the end) a sab a sab. So that's 6 Saboteur plays, which can knock out 6 provinces each*, which they can turn into estates (I guess), so that's 30 points down for each of them. And then you snap up 4 provinces with your one KC'ed Market, giving you a net swing of 54 points over each of them. Neat. Unfortunately, if they have provinces in their hands, it doesn't work, if you draw all your non-highways before playing all your highways, it doesn't work, and 12 provinces to knock out from them also just means it doesn't work. Which means... back to the drawing board? Except I think something similar will be right, only you need to gain a lot of the pieces partway through. So you need to have ironworks, KC, Highway, Saboteur in the kingdom. Your deck consists of... highway highway highway, KC, KC, Ironworks? And some drawing card like lab is going to help a good bit. Heck, maybe even... margrave would be nice. You'll have enough actions. And with margrave, you can knock them down to 3 cards in hand. So they get to protect less. And they could have some kind of defenses, which is going to stop a lot of stuff... well, 10 plays of masquerade can knock anything out of their hands, but you'd need nothing in your hand, and then you still need to be able to play everything, which... you just can't ensure. I'm very confused.

WanderingWinder

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Re: Bob's winning deck
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2012, 07:58:38 pm »
0

Oh, and about the pin, they can block unless you use the outpost version. Even if you do, that's only 6 cards flying around per turn, which will empty the dude to your left, but the guy to your right still gets 4 cards. Not to mention that with duchies gone, they can run out curses and quite possibly coppers before their lead is totally wiped out, and that you have no way of getting points to end the game either, even after that pin is gone.
So, only other unblockable card that does junk to them, like masquerade, is possession. However, you can only possess the dude to your left, which means the guy to your right is going to be pretty impervious. Sure, you can make dude to your left possess dude to your right (maybe), but then he gets to decide what dude to your right does, not you. So... pretty sure Bob is an arrogant little dude who is a bit too sure of himself? (considering that it can't just be a get VP for me scheme, as there's not enough left on the board for that to work...)

O

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Re: Bob's winning deck
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2012, 07:58:42 pm »
0

Seems to me the intended solution MIGHT be 2 King's Court, 2 Saboteur, 5 highways, and several Market/Grand Market. i.e. you highway everything down, to where provinces cost 3, KC a KC a market kind of card (well you don't really need to KC these... just need 4 buys at the end) a sab a sab. So that's 6 Saboteur plays, which can knock out 6 provinces each*, which they can turn into estates (I guess), so that's 30 points down for each of them. And then you snap up 4 provinces with your one KC'ed Market, giving you a net swing of 54 points over each of them. Neat. Unfortunately, if they have provinces in their hands, it doesn't work, if you draw all your non-highways before playing all your highways, it doesn't work, and 12 provinces to knock out from them also just means it doesn't work. Which means... back to the drawing board? Except I think something similar will be right, only you need to gain a lot of the pieces partway through. So you need to have ironworks, KC, Highway, Saboteur in the kingdom. Your deck consists of... highway highway highway, KC, KC, Ironworks? And some drawing card like lab is going to help a good bit. Heck, maybe even... margrave would be nice. You'll have enough actions. And with margrave, you can knock them down to 3 cards in hand. So they get to protect less. And they could have some kind of defenses, which is going to stop a lot of stuff... well, 10 plays of masquerade can knock anything out of their hands, but you'd need nothing in your hand, and then you still need to be able to play everything, which... you just can't ensure. I'm very confused.


B-crat?
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Bob's winning deck
« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2012, 07:59:53 pm »
0

Seems to me the intended solution MIGHT be 2 King's Court, 2 Saboteur, 5 highways, and several Market/Grand Market. i.e. you highway everything down, to where provinces cost 3, KC a KC a market kind of card (well you don't really need to KC these... just need 4 buys at the end) a sab a sab. So that's 6 Saboteur plays, which can knock out 6 provinces each*, which they can turn into estates (I guess), so that's 30 points down for each of them. And then you snap up 4 provinces with your one KC'ed Market, giving you a net swing of 54 points over each of them. Neat. Unfortunately, if they have provinces in their hands, it doesn't work, if you draw all your non-highways before playing all your highways, it doesn't work, and 12 provinces to knock out from them also just means it doesn't work. Which means... back to the drawing board? Except I think something similar will be right, only you need to gain a lot of the pieces partway through. So you need to have ironworks, KC, Highway, Saboteur in the kingdom. Your deck consists of... highway highway highway, KC, KC, Ironworks? And some drawing card like lab is going to help a good bit. Heck, maybe even... margrave would be nice. You'll have enough actions. And with margrave, you can knock them down to 3 cards in hand. So they get to protect less. And they could have some kind of defenses, which is going to stop a lot of stuff... well, 10 plays of masquerade can knock anything out of their hands, but you'd need nothing in your hand, and then you still need to be able to play everything, which... you just can't ensure. I'm very confused.


B-crat?
Thought of that, but firstly, you have to be able to get 5 plays down every turn AND have them have 5 green cards in hand, which I don't think you can force? But also, even so, how do you win after that. But the bigger problem is moat.

O

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Re: Bob's winning deck
« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2012, 08:02:30 pm »
0

I meant b-crat for saboteur, but yea, moat exists.
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Powerman

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Re: Bob's winning deck
« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2012, 08:11:57 pm »
+2

So, the total points out is 21 for 21 estates, 36 for 12 duchies, 72 for 12 provinces, and -20 for 20 curses.  Assuming Bob has 19 curses (-19) each of his opponents needs 35 points.  One has 10 duchies and 5 estates, the other has 3 Provinces, 2 Duchies and 11 estates.  Bob's hand is KC-KC-Bridge-Bridge-Bridge, and because it's his turn he knows he can simply buy 9 Provinces and an estate and eek out a 1 point win?

Of course, I hope this is wrong because that would be no fun :(
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Bob's winning deck
« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2012, 08:18:02 pm »
0

I guess the way you can do it is to repeatedly set up this situation: I somehow have only a masquerade in hand and a KC and native village in draw deck and play a golem, KC first, playing the masquerade, trashing everything, then pick up cards you have hidden on the native village mat. After clearing out their hands, you then still have to do whatever massive attack thing. I guess this is possible, maybe, but it seems extremely difficult to be able to orchestrate. For one thing, where are your four golems coming from? I guess you could already have them. Mind is bending to try to work out whether this actually works, but I just realized I don't care *that* much. If it does, pretty nice puzzle though, except for Powerman's cook ;)
(I guess I should explain - in chess puzzles, solutions that work but which aren't the intended solution of the puzzle-writer (typically they're not nearly as pretty and often quite ugly indeed) are called cooks)[/quote]

WanderingWinder

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Re: Bob's winning deck
« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2012, 08:19:43 pm »
0

So, the total points out is 21 for 21 estates, 36 for 12 duchies, 72 for 12 provinces, and -20 for 20 curses.  Assuming Bob has 19 curses (-19) each of his opponents needs 35 points.  One has 10 duchies and 5 estates, the other has 3 Provinces, 2 Duchies and 11 estates.  Bob's hand is KC-KC-Bridge-Bridge-Bridge, and because it's his turn he knows he can simply buy 9 Provinces and an estate and eek out a 1 point win?

Of course, I hope this is wrong because that would be no fun :(
Can't be that, because if he has 19 curses, how can he be sure to not draw those off of 'a random hand'. So I guess not so much of a cook as I thought....

Galzria

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Re: Bob's winning deck
« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2012, 08:25:13 pm »
0

WW, it doesn't say that when he shuffles his deck that he knows that he's won, it says that after he looks at his hand, he knows that he's won.

So while it says he dealt randomly to himself, the fact that he didn't know he would win until after he had looked at his hand suggests that it doesn't have to work no mater what he's dealt

... Right? Or am I misreading it?
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

Tonks77

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Re: Bob's winning deck
« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2012, 08:31:12 pm »
0


Points Before:
Bob has 18 curses and 3 estates --> -15 Points
Each of his opponents has 6 Duchies, 3 Provinces and 3 Estates --> 39 Points

Because opponents had played Councilrooms before his new 7-card-hand is:
KC-KC-KC-KC-Councilroom-Councilroom-Councilroom, enabling him to draw all of his remaing deck, including 18 curses, 3 ambassadors, 3 bridges and enough KC (too lazy to calclulate how many are needed, but it should work). He than KC-ambassadors all of his curses to his opponents (9 each), leaving them with 30 Points. Through KC-KC-Bridge-Bridge-Bridge he can buy the remaining 6 Provinces and 12 estates (he has plenty of +buys from councilrooms and bridges, winning by 48-30-30.


Edit: Fixed 2 typos
« Last Edit: June 02, 2012, 08:41:24 pm by Tonks77 »
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Bob's winning deck
« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2012, 08:31:50 pm »
0

WW, it doesn't say that when he shuffles his deck that he knows that he's won, it says that after he looks at his hand, he knows that he's won.

So while it says he dealt randomly to himself, the fact that he didn't know he would win until after he had looked at his hand suggests that it doesn't have to work no mater what he's dealt

... Right? Or am I misreading it?
If you're reading the puzzle right, it's a much more boring puzzle....

Powerman

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Re: Bob's winning deck
« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2012, 08:32:30 pm »
0

WW, it doesn't say that when he shuffles his deck that he knows that he's won, it says that after he looks at his hand, he knows that he's won.

So while it says he dealt randomly to himself, the fact that he didn't know he would win until after he had looked at his hand suggests that it doesn't have to work no mater what he's dealt

... Right? Or am I misreading it?

Those were my thoughts as well.
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Morgrim7

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Re: Bob's winning deck
« Reply #22 on: June 02, 2012, 08:44:19 pm »
0


Points Before:
Bob has 18 curses and 3 estates --> -15 Points
Each of his opponents has 6 Duchies, 3 Provinces and 3 Estates --> 39 Points

Because opponents had played Councilrooms before his new 7-card-hand is:
KC-KC-KC-KC-Councilroom-Councilroom-Councilroom, enabling him to draw all of his remaing deck, including 18 curses, 3 ambassadors, 3 bridges and enough KC (too lazy to calclulate how many are needed, but it should work). He than KC-ambassadors all of his curses to his opponents (9 each), leaving them with 30 Points. Through KC-KC-Bridge-Bridge-Bridge he can buy the remaining 6 Provinces and 12 estates (he has plenty of +buys from councilrooms and bridges, winning by 48-30-30.


Edit: Fixed 2 typos
This is not immune to attacks.
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"Oh sweet merciful heavens.

I sit here, lost amongst the cloud, that which is the brain of the Morgrim Mod. Perhaps I will learn the inner workings of that storied mind. Perhaps I will simply go mad.

Mad, I tell you.

Maaaaaaaaaaaaad." -Voltgloss
Dominion Notation: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7265.msg206246#msg206246

Tonks77

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Re: Bob's winning deck
« Reply #23 on: June 02, 2012, 09:07:59 pm »
0


Points Before:
Bob has 18 curses and 3 estates --> -15 Points
Each of his opponents has 6 Duchies, 3 Provinces and 3 Estates --> 39 Points

Because opponents had played Councilrooms before his new 7-card-hand is:
KC-KC-KC-KC-Councilroom-Councilroom-Councilroom, enabling him to draw all of his remaing deck, including 18 curses, 3 ambassadors, 3 bridges and enough KC (too lazy to calclulate how many are needed, but it should work). He than KC-ambassadors all of his curses to his opponents (9 each), leaving them with 30 Points. Through KC-KC-Bridge-Bridge-Bridge he can buy the remaining 6 Provinces and 12 estates (he has plenty of +buys from councilrooms and bridges, winning by 48-30-30.


Edit: Fixed 2 typos
This is not immune to attacks.

At the start of his turn, Bob looks at his hand, smiles and says "Good game" assured he will win regardless of what luck happens next.

As Bob sees this hand at the start of his turn, we can assume there were no discard attacks before his turn. I don't know which attacks should happen to him after that, because after his turn the game is over. And even if his opponents manage to defend against his ambassadored curses, they will still have no more than 39 points.
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jomini

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Re: Bob's winning deck
« Reply #24 on: June 03, 2012, 03:05:59 pm »
0

Tonks: your solution does not work because it can be stopped if the opponents have moats in hand

General clarifications:
1. Your solution must work for any hands the opponents could have. If they have moats in hand, Bob still must be assured a victory without attacks working.
2. Bob drew his hand face down and did nothing to change it until his turn. So it is a normal 5 card hand.
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