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Author Topic: Bob's winning deck  (Read 18069 times)

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Grujah

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Re: Bob's winning deck
« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2012, 03:24:59 pm »
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his hand is KC KC Golem Golem Golem.
He gets 18 actions.
So make that 9 Bridges and 6 WharvesLabs, 2 Schemes and an Outpost.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2012, 05:33:34 pm by Grujah »
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: Bob's winning deck
« Reply #26 on: June 03, 2012, 05:23:20 pm »
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his hand is KC KC Golem Golem Golem.
He gets 18 actions.
So make that 9 Bridges and 6 Wharves, 2 Schemes and an Outpost.


Can't have Wharves or Schemes incase they draw the other actions before your Golems find them.

Edit: Although Scheme isn't a problem because it gives you an action to play any potentially drawn actions.

Not that any of this matters though, with 9 Bridges you can buy whatever the hell you want to.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2012, 05:25:21 pm by Thisisnotasmile »
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jomini

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Re: Bob's winning deck
« Reply #27 on: June 03, 2012, 10:17:24 pm »
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It appears that I did not consider the curses carefully enough when framing this puzzle. You may consider this a hard mode if you like:
Bob's deck and hand contain zero curses
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Grujah

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Re: Bob's winning deck
« Reply #28 on: June 04, 2012, 06:44:20 am »
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Hmmm.. Hard mode:
Correct me if I am wrong. Among 12 duchies, 12 provinces and 21 estates there 129 points to be gained. Even if he gained 10 IGGs and gave them each 10 curses, They would have 44 points each, and he could only have 21.
So I guess it has something like "KC Masq-ing your oponent KC Masq and Poss and then.. " don't want to go there. It hurts my head.
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Morgrim7

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Re: Bob's winning deck
« Reply #29 on: June 04, 2012, 09:51:31 am »
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Maybe the hand is KC-KC-PossessionX3?
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Bob's winning deck
« Reply #30 on: June 04, 2012, 10:00:03 am »
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Maybe the hand is KC-KC-PossessionX3?
Hardly. Grabbing the guy to your left's deck for three turns can't help him THAT much. Especially because that dude could be holding 3 all-green hands.

Morgrim7

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Re: Bob's winning deck
« Reply #31 on: June 04, 2012, 10:02:30 am »
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Maybe the hand is KC-KC-PossessionX3?
Hardly. Grabbing the guy to your left's deck for three turns can't help him THAT much. Especially because that dude could be holding 3 all-green hands.
That would be 9 turns. And with a lot of King's Courts, Ambassadors, and Masquerades it could help, sure.
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Dominion Notation: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7265.msg206246#msg206246

WanderingWinder

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Re: Bob's winning deck
« Reply #32 on: June 04, 2012, 10:04:23 am »
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Maybe the hand is KC-KC-PossessionX3?
Hardly. Grabbing the guy to your left's deck for three turns can't help him THAT much. Especially because that dude could be holding 3 all-green hands.
That would be 9 turns. And with a lot of King's Courts, Ambassadors, and Masquerades it could help, sure.
Oh look, I can't count. But point is, you don't know that he has that. Heck, you don't know that his deck isn't something like 8 coppers and the rest green cards. It's supposed to be able to be ANYTHING.

jomini

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Re: Bob's winning deck
« Reply #33 on: June 04, 2012, 10:35:49 am »
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Just to clarify, Bob must be assured a win even if his opponents have no action cards in their hands or decks at the start of his present turn.
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DStu

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Re: Bob's winning deck
« Reply #34 on: June 04, 2012, 11:13:53 am »
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Bob has 30 Curses and nothing
Alice and Eve each have 6 Duchies and 1 Province giving them 6x3+6=6x4=24VPs for a total difference of 54VPs.

Bob draws KCKC3xBridge for 10 Provinces for free, giving him 60VPs and ending the game.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Bob's winning deck
« Reply #35 on: June 04, 2012, 11:14:50 am »
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Bob has 30 Curses and nothing
Alice and Eve each have 6 Duchies and 1 Province giving them 6x3+6=6x4=24VPs for a total difference of 54VPs.

Bob draws KCKC3xBridge for 10 Provinces for free, giving him 60VPs and ending the game.

Please, read the thread before posting.  ::)

DStu

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Re: Bob's winning deck
« Reply #36 on: June 04, 2012, 11:16:29 am »
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Please, read the thread before posting.  ::)
[/quote]

I thought I did. Must have been somewhere under this black lines...

Edit: OK, that was posted before. Don't get why it should be wrong. It was after he sees the hand he knows he had won. Or isn't it wrong and you are just having fun with more solutions?
« Last Edit: June 04, 2012, 11:20:30 am by DStu »
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Axxle

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Re: Bob's winning deck
« Reply #37 on: June 04, 2012, 11:19:07 am »
+1


Bob has 30 Curses and nothing
Alice and Eve each have 6 Duchies and 1 Province giving them 6x3+6=6x4=24VPs for a total difference of 54VPs.

Bob draws KCKC3xBridge for 10 Provinces for free, giving him 60VPs and ending the game.

Please, read the thread before posting.  ::)
Why? Isn't the point of spoiler tags so that people can post their own responses regardless of what other people have said?
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DStu

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Re: Bob's winning deck
« Reply #38 on: June 04, 2012, 11:22:18 am »
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Why? Isn't the point of spoiler tags so that people can post their own responses regardless of what other people have said?

Nja, probably before posting they should have a look. Anyway, I was distracted by the Ambassador things afterwards and didn't look very carefully, as jomini's post seems like it's still open? Is it? I'm puzzled...
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jomini

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Re: Bob's winning deck
« Reply #39 on: June 04, 2012, 11:36:39 am »
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I'm throwing this into spoilers because I'm not sure if folks would continue to have the current puzzle up or if I should change the initial post.

When I made the original puzzle I choose a poor way to clarify the situation without giving too much away. It was intended that this be more difficult than Bob just buys all the remaining VP for the win. My poor wording means that any solution where bob has 19 curses and can pull off a sufficiently strong mega-turn will result in a win for him. These are solutions to the puzzle, but frankly not that interesting.

A harder version of the puzzle, the one I had in mind to begin with, also includes the stipulation that Bob has no curses in his hand or deck at the start of his turn.


Let me know if you guys would like the OP changed, the spoiler tags removed, or things left as is. I've seen some fun things here that I hadn't considered so I'm fine with it either way.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Bob's winning deck
« Reply #40 on: June 04, 2012, 11:44:37 am »
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Bob has 30 Curses and nothing
Alice and Eve each have 6 Duchies and 1 Province giving them 6x3+6=6x4=24VPs for a total difference of 54VPs.

Bob draws KCKC3xBridge for 10 Provinces for free, giving him 60VPs and ending the game.

Please, read the thread before posting.  ::)
Why? Isn't the point of spoiler tags so that people can post their own responses regardless of what other people have said?
Oh hey, you can just KC/Bridge Mega-Turn.

I mean, the point of the spoiler tags is that you can think about the puzzle and try to solve it regardless of what other people have said. Not post the same things a thousand times. If that were the case, why post at all?

eHalcyon

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Re: Bob's winning deck
« Reply #41 on: June 04, 2012, 02:20:56 pm »
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Not a solution, but perhaps it can help lead to one?

There are a few ways to be 54 points behind both other players.  If Bob doesn't have any Curses at all, there aren't many ways to come back from that.

12 provinces = 72 points
12 duchies = 36 points
12 estates = 12 points

There is a total of 120 points.  Each opponent could have their starting estates while Bob has trashed his, so that means at the very least they each have 51 of the available points from the supply.  In that case, there are at most 18 points remaining in the supply for Bob to gain.

Along with this, there are 30 curses available to pass out.  If he passes them all to a single opponent, their lead drops to 24.  That means that even if Bob buys all the remaining VP, he will STILL be behind the cursed opponent, and that's without worrying about the other guy.  It's an even worse proposition if he passes out curses evenly.

Therefore the solution must involve either destroying their VP or stealing them.


---

Perhaps a solution could involve KC, Bridge and Saboteur, maybe facilitated by Golems in hand.  But the problem is that this would be stopped cold by Moat and Lighthouse.




Another idea -- the two opponents don't need the same split of VP.  One could have 9 provinces and the other a mix:

12 duchies = 36
2 provinces = 12
3+3 estates = 6
== 54


This would leave in the supply: 1 province, 9 estates, 30 curses.

Perhaps Bob can put his opponents into a Bureaucrat pin, eventually forcing the players to pass VP cards with Masquerade.  You will gain much more than the other opponent since the player passing to you is passing Province while the other is passing Estates and Duchies.  Maybe you can work some curses in there as well.

But again, this is blocked by Moat and Lighthouse.

I'm really not sure how to do this when attacks are blocked.
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: Bob's winning deck
« Reply #42 on: June 04, 2012, 03:32:30 pm »
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Maybe if you specify enough kingdom cards for an elaborate pin, you don't need to worry about Moat/Lighthouse
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O

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Re: Bob's winning deck
« Reply #43 on: June 04, 2012, 05:16:58 pm »
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Bob is playing Dominion and losing badly; each of his two opponents has a 54 VP lead on Bob. There are no VP chip cards nor any alternate VP cards (no colonies) in the kingdom; there is no black market in the kingdom. Only the duchy pile has been exhausted. All mats and play areas are empty. Bob shuffles his deck and draws a random hand, face down. At the start of his turn, Bob looks at his hand, smiles and says "Good game" assured he will win regardless of what luck happens next.

What is Bob's deck?


Notes:
The other players can have ANY cards (barring alternate VP/black market) in their hands/decks/discards; it doesn't matter they will still lose.
The other players can use their actions and buys in ANY legal fashion; it doesn't matter they will still lose.




I don't really understand how any of this precludes the simple KC-KC-Outpost-Masquerade from pinning them down, given sufficient coppers are still in play (or we're using an arbitrarily large copper stack)
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Bob's winning deck
« Reply #44 on: June 04, 2012, 05:28:17 pm »
0

Bob is playing Dominion and losing badly; each of his two opponents has a 54 VP lead on Bob. There are no VP chip cards nor any alternate VP cards (no colonies) in the kingdom; there is no black market in the kingdom. Only the duchy pile has been exhausted. All mats and play areas are empty. Bob shuffles his deck and draws a random hand, face down. At the start of his turn, Bob looks at his hand, smiles and says "Good game" assured he will win regardless of what luck happens next.

What is Bob's deck?


Notes:
The other players can have ANY cards (barring alternate VP/black market) in their hands/decks/discards; it doesn't matter they will still lose.
The other players can use their actions and buys in ANY legal fashion; it doesn't matter they will still lose.




I don't really understand how any of this precludes the simple KC-KC-Outpost-Masquerade from pinning them down, given sufficient coppers are still in play (or we're using an arbitrarily large copper stack)

Having three players does that.

O

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Re: Bob's winning deck
« Reply #45 on: June 04, 2012, 05:28:53 pm »
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Bob is playing Dominion and losing badly; each of his two opponents has a 54 VP lead on Bob. There are no VP chip cards nor any alternate VP cards (no colonies) in the kingdom; there is no black market in the kingdom. Only the duchy pile has been exhausted. All mats and play areas are empty. Bob shuffles his deck and draws a random hand, face down. At the start of his turn, Bob looks at his hand, smiles and says "Good game" assured he will win regardless of what luck happens next.

What is Bob's deck?


Notes:
The other players can have ANY cards (barring alternate VP/black market) in their hands/decks/discards; it doesn't matter they will still lose.
The other players can use their actions and buys in ANY legal fashion; it doesn't matter they will still lose.




I don't really understand how any of this precludes the simple KC-KC-Outpost-Masquerade from pinning them down, given sufficient coppers are still in play (or we're using an arbitrarily large copper stack)

Having three players does that.
[/quote

doh.
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Axxle

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Re: Bob's winning deck
« Reply #46 on: June 04, 2012, 05:43:52 pm »
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Bob is playing Dominion and losing badly; each of his two opponents has a 54 VP lead on Bob. There are no VP chip cards nor any alternate VP cards (no colonies) in the kingdom; there is no black market in the kingdom. Only the duchy pile has been exhausted. All mats and play areas are empty. Bob shuffles his deck and draws a random hand, face down. At the start of his turn, Bob looks at his hand, smiles and says "Good game" assured he will win regardless of what luck happens next.

What is Bob's deck?


Notes:
The other players can have ANY cards (barring alternate VP/black market) in their hands/decks/discards; it doesn't matter they will still lose.
The other players can use their actions and buys in ANY legal fashion; it doesn't matter they will still lose.




I don't really understand how any of this precludes the simple KC-KC-Outpost-Masquerade from pinning them down, given sufficient coppers are still in play (or we're using an arbitrarily large copper stack)

Having three players does that.
Does KC-KC-Militia-Outpost-Masquerade work? Or does KC not stay out with Outpost?
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O

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Re: Bob's winning deck
« Reply #47 on: June 04, 2012, 05:44:25 pm »
+1

Bob is playing Dominion and losing badly; each of his two opponents has a 54 VP lead on Bob. There are no VP chip cards nor any alternate VP cards (no colonies) in the kingdom; there is no black market in the kingdom. Only the duchy pile has been exhausted. All mats and play areas are empty. Bob shuffles his deck and draws a random hand, face down. At the start of his turn, Bob looks at his hand, smiles and says "Good game" assured he will win regardless of what luck happens next.

What is Bob's deck?


Notes:
The other players can have ANY cards (barring alternate VP/black market) in their hands/decks/discards; it doesn't matter they will still lose.
The other players can use their actions and buys in ANY legal fashion; it doesn't matter they will still lose.




I don't really understand how any of this precludes the simple KC-KC-Outpost-Masquerade from pinning them down, given sufficient coppers are still in play (or we're using an arbitrarily large copper stack)

Having three players does that.
Does KC-KC-Militia-Outpost-Masquerade work? Or does KC not stay out with Outpost?

Moat.
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Axxle

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Re: Bob's winning deck
« Reply #48 on: June 04, 2012, 05:45:23 pm »
0

Bob is playing Dominion and losing badly; each of his two opponents has a 54 VP lead on Bob. There are no VP chip cards nor any alternate VP cards (no colonies) in the kingdom; there is no black market in the kingdom. Only the duchy pile has been exhausted. All mats and play areas are empty. Bob shuffles his deck and draws a random hand, face down. At the start of his turn, Bob looks at his hand, smiles and says "Good game" assured he will win regardless of what luck happens next.

What is Bob's deck?


Notes:
The other players can have ANY cards (barring alternate VP/black market) in their hands/decks/discards; it doesn't matter they will still lose.
The other players can use their actions and buys in ANY legal fashion; it doesn't matter they will still lose.




I don't really understand how any of this precludes the simple KC-KC-Outpost-Masquerade from pinning them down, given sufficient coppers are still in play (or we're using an arbitrarily large copper stack)

Having three players does that.
Does KC-KC-Militia-Outpost-Masquerade work? Or does KC not stay out with Outpost?

Moat.
doh.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Bob's winning deck
« Reply #49 on: June 04, 2012, 06:02:16 pm »
0

Bob is playing Dominion and losing badly; each of his two opponents has a 54 VP lead on Bob. There are no VP chip cards nor any alternate VP cards (no colonies) in the kingdom; there is no black market in the kingdom. Only the duchy pile has been exhausted. All mats and play areas are empty. Bob shuffles his deck and draws a random hand, face down. At the start of his turn, Bob looks at his hand, smiles and says "Good game" assured he will win regardless of what luck happens next.

What is Bob's deck?


Notes:
The other players can have ANY cards (barring alternate VP/black market) in their hands/decks/discards; it doesn't matter they will still lose.
The other players can use their actions and buys in ANY legal fashion; it doesn't matter they will still lose.




I don't really understand how any of this precludes the simple KC-KC-Outpost-Masquerade from pinning them down, given sufficient coppers are still in play (or we're using an arbitrarily large copper stack)

Having three players does that.
Does KC-KC-Militia-Outpost-Masquerade work? Or does KC not stay out with Outpost?

Moat.
doh.
Actually, it doesn't work anyway, BECAUSE KC stays out with outpost. I play KC-KC-Militia-Outpost-Masq. Ok, So delete three cards left in hand of guy on my right. Guy on left gives his 3 cards to guy on right. Now I take my outpost turn. I have KC-Militia-outpost, and I can't pin you, because if I KC the militia, there's nothing left for me to play the masq with, and if I play KC the masq, I have to pass my militia.
HOWEVER, you could fix that if you're able to get a haven down just right. It needs to be that you draw the militia out of the haven on your normal turns, then play haven to set aside militia on your outpost turns, before KCing masq.
But that still fails to moat.
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