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Author Topic: Mafia IV: Within These Estate Walls (GAME OVER - MAFIA WINS!)  (Read 330663 times)

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Insomniac

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Re: Mafia IV: Within These Estate Walls (DAY 1 START!)
« Reply #100 on: June 04, 2012, 11:21:54 am »

I suspect Robz! because mafia II carries over into mafia iv right! Also hes had like one whole hour to respond and has said nothing SCUMMY!

Just kidding.

Anyways I'm here!
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"It is one of [Insomniacs] badges of pride that he will bus anyone, at any time, and he has done it over and over on day 1. I am completely serious, it is like the biggest part of his meta." - Dsell

Axxle

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Re: Mafia IV: Within These Estate Walls (DAY 1 START!)
« Reply #101 on: June 04, 2012, 11:26:55 am »

Right now you can't really argue with many people.  I've said something and Captain Frisk has said something and that's it.  You can poke at what we've said so far and see our responses and that's probably a good thing.  You're also doing correctly by asking questions from everyone, since that will generate discussion. (remember to ask good questions though).
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Grujah

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Re: Mafia IV: Within These Estate Walls (DAY 1 START!)
« Reply #102 on: June 04, 2012, 11:29:48 am »

Well, you do seem less scummy for being helpful, but I don't believe I can assume much (if anything) solely on that.  ;D
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jotheonah

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Re: Mafia IV: Within These Estate Walls (DAY 1 START!)
« Reply #103 on: June 04, 2012, 11:33:41 am »

Let's make it our goal to be the first F.DS mafia town to lynch scum Day 1! I believe in us. We can do it.
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Galzria

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Re: Mafia IV: Within These Estate Walls (DAY 1 START!)
« Reply #104 on: June 04, 2012, 11:42:00 am »

Let's make it our goal to be the first F.DS mafia town to lynch scum Day 1! I believe in us. We can do it.

Well, if you want to find scum so much today (admirable goal, who doesn't? (aside from scum)), what are your proposed methods? What are you going to look for? I think you would agree nobody is going to jump up and down screaming "Me! Pick me! I'm scum!". So, what should we look fir?
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.

Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

Insomniac

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Re: Mafia IV: Within These Estate Walls (DAY 1 START!)
« Reply #105 on: June 04, 2012, 11:43:36 am »

Let's make it our goal to be the first F.DS mafia town to lynch scum Day 1! I believe in us. We can do it.

Well, if you want to find scum so much today (admirable goal, who doesn't? (aside from scum)), what are your proposed methods? What are you going to look for? I think you would agree nobody is going to jump up and down screaming "Me! Pick me! I'm scum!". So, what should we look fir?

Even if they did that do we LEARN anything from lynching them except if they were lying? Someone screaming I'm scum is the least likely to be beneficial as they drew the attention to themselves.
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"It is one of [Insomniacs] badges of pride that he will bus anyone, at any time, and he has done it over and over on day 1. I am completely serious, it is like the biggest part of his meta." - Dsell

Galzria

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Re: Mafia IV: Within These Estate Walls (DAY 1 START!)
« Reply #106 on: June 04, 2012, 11:48:17 am »

@Insomniac:

Are you suggesting that if somebody did scream "Pick me, I'm scum", that we should ignore them because they drew the suspicion on themselves? May I infer by that, that you believe the Mafia will be doing very little to act suspicious, and the best they can to appear town?

If that's true, will your suspicions be towards those who appear town?
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.

Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

Insomniac

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Re: Mafia IV: Within These Estate Walls (DAY 1 START!)
« Reply #107 on: June 04, 2012, 11:52:58 am »

@Insomniac:

Are you suggesting that if somebody did scream "Pick me, I'm scum", that we should ignore them because they drew the suspicion on themselves? May I infer by that, that you believe the Mafia will be doing very little to act suspicious, and the best they can to appear town?

If that's true, will your suspicions be towards those who appear town?

No. Im suggesting that after reading the article Axxle posted that if someone did scream IM SCUM. They should be ignored during the Day 1 "random voting stage" and we can come back to them later. By not lynching someone who screams IM SCUM. We can actually gain some information going into day 2.

For example in
Mafia I - There was soo much information going into day 2, who pushed for TINAS? who pushed for theory? Similarities?
Mafia II - Who pushed for Morgrim, who turned the tides toward him?

This is some information we hope to achieve, if there is reason to believe that the person who screamed scum is scum, yes lets vote for them, but lets do so after we get information otherwise we just end up back where we started and well I hate day 1 for that.
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"It is one of [Insomniacs] badges of pride that he will bus anyone, at any time, and he has done it over and over on day 1. I am completely serious, it is like the biggest part of his meta." - Dsell

jotheonah

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Re: Mafia IV: Within These Estate Walls (DAY 1 START!)
« Reply #108 on: June 04, 2012, 11:54:42 am »

Well, in that case.

Ahem.

Pick me! I'm scum!

But seriously, Galz, I am at work and I shouldn't even BE posting right now. But rest assured that when I get home this evening I will put on my scumhunting hat and get to work.
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Captain_Frisk

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Re: Mafia IV: Within These Estate Walls (DAY 1 START!)
« Reply #109 on: June 04, 2012, 11:55:26 am »

Let's make it our goal to be the first F.DS mafia town to lynch scum Day 1! I believe in us. We can do it.

Isn't this always the goal? 

I'm going to do my best from refraining from discussion of that ongoing game - but I suspect it may be unavoidable.

@Grujah

As for what to do at this point - I'm a n00b too.  We have a lot longer than the other game - 21 days?!?!?

Personally - I'm a believer in early voting as I believe it to foster the release of information via voting patterns and potential roleclaims that merely "suspecting someone" does not.  We can all sit here and suspect on someone until the cows come home - but they are not going to claim a role until they gets some votes on their head.

That roleclaim is information that can be investigated as the game goes onward, and the names of the people who voted for him is interesting as well.

Reading other mafia forums, I saw voting open immediately - with 0 suspicion, so I am willing to do this as well.  Naturally because it isn't based on real suspicion, I'm likely to unvote it in the future.

"O" is a believer in random voting.  Some people don't like this - and it results in an argument every time he does it.

RobZ seems to be a believer in talking and being sure before casting votes.

Some people think that posting friendly / unsubstantial / joke posts is a sign of Scum trying to look active to the town.  Other people say that posting posts that are "helpful" is too obviously town - and thus you must be scum.

Basically:


Is the person too quiet?  - They are flying under the radar and must be scum.
Is the person posting too much drivel?    - They are trying to look active without actually helping the town - totally scummy.
Is the person posting helpful things? - This is so obviously town - that it must be scum hiding
Is the person kindof hiding in the middle of the pack? - Scum doesn't want to stand out.







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Galzria

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Re: Mafia IV: Within These Estate Walls (DAY 1 START!)
« Reply #110 on: June 04, 2012, 11:56:31 am »

@Grujah

I don't fully buy the "newb" argument anymore. There are previous games up to have read if you were really unsure of how day 1 can go, but even if you didn't feel like reading them (no problem, won't hold it against you), I've come to have too much respect for the intelligence of the members of this forum. I've read many of your posts elsewhere, and know that my thoughts on the general populace are no different individually for you.

With that said, your question regarding what roles should reveal strikes me as odd. All of the roles are in the first post to review. Which of those did you think might have reason to, and why?
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.

Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

Axxle

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Re: Mafia IV: Within These Estate Walls (DAY 1 START!)
« Reply #111 on: June 04, 2012, 11:56:53 am »

@Insomniac:

Are you suggesting that if somebody did scream "Pick me, I'm scum", that we should ignore them because they drew the suspicion on themselves? May I infer by that, that you believe the Mafia will be doing very little to act suspicious, and the best they can to appear town?

If that's true, will your suspicions be towards those who appear town?

No. Im suggesting that after reading the article Axxle posted that if someone did scream IM SCUM. They should be ignored during the Day 1 "random voting stage" and we can come back to them later.

Oh god no.  You missed the whole point of the article.  It says we need to hold everyone accountable for all their actions even in RVS.  This lets us get out of RVS much faster.
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Robz888

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Re: Mafia IV: Within These Estate Walls (DAY 1 START!)
« Reply #112 on: June 04, 2012, 11:57:04 am »

Hello everyone.

I might be able to provoke an argument this way: I am actually fine with not killing anyone on Day 1 if I don't believe we have a good chance of actually killing a mafia member. (When I argued otherwise in Mafia II, I was a member of the mafia).

I'm not voting 'No Lynch,' and I'm not saying that should be the goal--but if we run out of time, and we have no reason to suspect anyone more than anybody else... it's better to have an additional townsperson alive on Day 2 rather than mislynch. In my view, at least.
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Tables

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Re: Mafia IV: Within These Estate Walls (DAY 1 START!)
« Reply #113 on: June 04, 2012, 11:58:12 am »

I believe Axxle to be town.

Discuss.
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But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

Robz888

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Re: Mafia IV: Within These Estate Walls (DAY 1 START!)
« Reply #114 on: June 04, 2012, 11:59:41 am »

I believe Axxle to be town.

Discuss.

I have no reason to disbelieve you or your claim.
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Grujah

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Re: Mafia IV: Within These Estate Walls (DAY 1 START!)
« Reply #115 on: June 04, 2012, 12:00:05 pm »

If something I learned from BSG, I'd lynch a guy saying "I'm a scum" without breaking a sweat. (comparing it with Human playing a negative card into voting.. just because).

It's a terrible move, if you are town it makes no absolutely no sense to do it (maaaybe if somehow you are trying to protect a power role you know/are sure of and who is being endangered), it is a scummy move to sow discontent, as I said, wouldn't break a sweat.

(this was an answer to up to Insomniac's post, I'd have to read other posts later and respond).
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Insomniac

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Re: Mafia IV: Within These Estate Walls (DAY 1 START!)
« Reply #116 on: June 04, 2012, 12:00:16 pm »

@Insomniac:

Are you suggesting that if somebody did scream "Pick me, I'm scum", that we should ignore them because they drew the suspicion on themselves? May I infer by that, that you believe the Mafia will be doing very little to act suspicious, and the best they can to appear town?

If that's true, will your suspicions be towards those who appear town?

I'm not saying they aren't accountable for what they say at all.

I'm saying that if we all hammered jotheonah right now for saying "I'm scum" we wouldn't gain information. We'd see if he's town or mafia but we would have no real information on anyone else. So I'm hoping that we would ACTUALLY wait to hammer jotheonah or actually move to day 2 until we have information.

No. Im suggesting that after reading the article Axxle posted that if someone did scream IM SCUM. They should be ignored during the Day 1 "random voting stage" and we can come back to them later.

Oh god no.  You missed the whole point of the article.  It says we need to hold everyone accountable for all their actions even in RVS.  This lets us get out of RVS much faster.
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"It is one of [Insomniacs] badges of pride that he will bus anyone, at any time, and he has done it over and over on day 1. I am completely serious, it is like the biggest part of his meta." - Dsell

Insomniac

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Re: Mafia IV: Within These Estate Walls (DAY 1 START!)
« Reply #117 on: June 04, 2012, 12:04:15 pm »

@Insomniac:

Are you suggesting that if somebody did scream "Pick me, I'm scum", that we should ignore them because they drew the suspicion on themselves? May I infer by that, that you believe the Mafia will be doing very little to act suspicious, and the best they can to appear town?

If that's true, will your suspicions be towards those who appear town?

I'm not saying they aren't accountable for what they say at all.

I'm saying that if we all hammered jotheonah right now for saying "I'm scum" we wouldn't gain information. We'd see if he's town or mafia but we would have no real information on anyone else. So I'm hoping that we would ACTUALLY wait to hammer jotheonah or actually move to day 2 until we have information.

No. Im suggesting that after reading the article Axxle posted that if someone did scream IM SCUM. They should be ignored during the Day 1 "random voting stage" and we can come back to them later.

Oh god no.  You missed the whole point of the article.  It says we need to hold everyone accountable for all their actions even in RVS.  This lets us get out of RVS much faster.

Ok so for whatever reason my answer got removed.

I'm not saying they aren't accountable for that what Im saying is.

Say jotheonah jumps up and says "I'M SCUM!" which he did already jokingly. I'm not saying we shouldn't kill him, I'm also not saying he isn't responsible for his actions. What I AM saying is that if we lynch him right now we have no new information on day 2 except whether or not he was lying. We still have no better idea where the mafia is which is information I'd like to have going forward. I'm not even saying he shouldn't be lynched day 1 for his claim. But I AM suggesting that the longer day 1 is drawn out the better it is for the town.
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Robz888

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Re: Mafia IV: Within These Estate Walls (DAY 1 START!)
« Reply #118 on: June 04, 2012, 12:09:48 pm »

Say jotheonah jumps up and says "I'M SCUM!" which he did already jokingly. I'm not saying we shouldn't kill him, I'm also not saying he isn't responsible for his actions. What I AM saying is that if we lynch him right now we have no new information on day 2 except whether or not he was lying. We still have no better idea where the mafia is which is information I'd like to have going forward. I'm not even saying he shouldn't be lynched day 1 for his claim. But I AM suggesting that the longer day 1 is drawn out the better it is for the town.

Yeah, but we aren't just lynching to gain information. We are lynching to kill the mafia. Presumably we thought he was mafia, which was why we voted for him (in this imaginary scenario).

Personally, I'm starting to sour on people voting for any reason other than "I find it more likely than not that this person is mafia."

Here are some of the ones I don't like:

"Well, we have to kill SOMEONE."
"This person is being unhelpful."

The voting for somebody who has been too quiet is also okay, because it just isn't fair if the mafia could get away with not talking at all.
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Galzria

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Re: Mafia IV: Within These Estate Walls (DAY 1 START!)
« Reply #119 on: June 04, 2012, 12:10:35 pm »

@Insomniac

"It seems to me that the longer day 1 is drawn out, the more it helps the town"

Could you elaborate? I'm inclined to disagree to an extent. I don't think we should lynch quickly, but confusion is the tool Mafia use best, and the longer the have to burrow their holes, make friends, and divide, confuse, and separate townies the better it'll be for them. People can be blind to their beliefs, and it becomes increasingly easy for Mafia to exploit that.
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.

Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

jotheonah

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Re: Mafia IV: Within These Estate Walls (DAY 1 START!)
« Reply #120 on: June 04, 2012, 12:13:30 pm »

Say jotheonah jumps up and says "I'M SCUM!" which he did already jokingly. I'm not saying we shouldn't kill him, I'm also not saying he isn't responsible for his actions. What I AM saying is that if we lynch him right now we have no new information on day 2 except whether or not he was lying. We still have no better idea where the mafia is which is information I'd like to have going forward. I'm not even saying he shouldn't be lynched day 1 for his claim. But I AM suggesting that the longer day 1 is drawn out the better it is for the town.

Yeah, but we aren't just lynching to gain information. We are lynching to kill the mafia. Presumably we thought he was mafia, which was why we voted for him (in this imaginary scenario).

Personally, I'm starting to sour on people voting for any reason other than "I find it more likely than not that this person is mafia."

Here are some of the ones I don't like:

"Well, we have to kill SOMEONE."
"This person is being unhelpful."

The voting for somebody who has been too quiet is also okay, because it just isn't fair if the mafia could get away with not talking at all.

This (the too quiet thing) is called a policy lynch, and it seems to be an accepted practice in the mafiascum community. Which is not to say it's good, but it does make a certain sense.
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Galzria

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Re: Mafia IV: Within These Estate Walls (DAY 1 START!)
« Reply #121 on: June 04, 2012, 12:15:37 pm »

Well, in that case.

Ahem.

Pick me! I'm scum!

But seriously, Galz, I am at work and I shouldn't even BE posting right now. But rest assured that when I get home this evening I will put on my scumhunting hat and get to work.

No problem J, just don't forget the question. I am curious.
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.

Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

Tables

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Re: Mafia IV: Within These Estate Walls (DAY 1 START!)
« Reply #122 on: June 04, 2012, 12:17:26 pm »

The longer day 1 draws out, the more posts and information there is available to be analysed. The more posts there are, the easier it is to spot where the mafia might be, and to scumhunt effectively. We don't need to use all 3 weeks, of course, but ending the day early because we can is a sure-fire way to losing (Look at Mafia II: Morgrim ended the day early, which stopped me finishing my note taking before the end of the day, which after starting in the night had left me very suspicious of three people, two of which were mafia).

Robz: Voting for someone who's been too quiet is often a mafia move as much as anything. Mafia players rarely want to just sit there in silence, and are if anything more likely to get prods from their teammates to be more active. As a way to get them to talk, well, sure, but as a target for lynching... it's a bad move. It's essentially justifying a random vote.
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But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

Insomniac

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Re: Mafia IV: Within These Estate Walls (DAY 1 START!)
« Reply #123 on: June 04, 2012, 12:19:58 pm »

@Galz. Sure. Say with no other information we lynch jotheonah right now for saying I'm scum. How do we have any information on day 2 that we didn't have in the RVS? Maybe we hit mafia maybe we didn't. (I'm suggesting that the next 8 posts contain nothing other than a vote for J).

Now suppose that day 1 goes longer and consists of 5 pages or something, now we have some REAL information, we have accusations defenses, bandwagons and voting order, who voted where, when and why.

You'll notice that in Mafia I one of my main reasons for suspecting Robz was that he was the penultimate on Morgrim, pushed hard for morgrim all day and set up Volt as a fall guy (with the permission thing)

@Robz: I'm aware we aren't just lynching for information, and I wouldn't vote for anyone who didnt seem scummy, but I do think we should try to have real information day 1 before just ending it.

@Tables: I have no reason to believe or disbelieve this claim yet.

@ALL: The main misconception is that I don't think someone screaming lynch me is important to target right away, if they're mafia thats fine but who are they working with and why did they throw themselves under a bus


Pre-Post Edit:Tables is effectively saying what I am. We don't need to use all 21 days but we dont need to fast close it either we need the information we can get to scumhunt.
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"It is one of [Insomniacs] badges of pride that he will bus anyone, at any time, and he has done it over and over on day 1. I am completely serious, it is like the biggest part of his meta." - Dsell

Grujah

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Re: Mafia IV: Within These Estate Walls (DAY 1 START!)
« Reply #124 on: June 04, 2012, 12:20:29 pm »

@G - it deosn't have much to do with me being smart or not; I cannot think of any game that I regularly play in which you can just jump in without playing before without a) being exceptionally intelligent b) being overinformed on everything about the game and c) having experience in similar games. I do have c), and I am not 'that' smart, I believe I'm lacking b) (both on general mafia stratagy and on M1/2/3 games).

As for me inquering about roleclaim, I later realised it might have been a mistake, as possibly targets me as a power role and I'm asking on how to proceed. My intention was to gain knowledge/insight about strategy/thinking behind power roles.
And to answer the question, I guess:
A one shot-cop/doc (maybe others too?) might want to claim, and if they survive and "prove" their role, they might throw mafia off the real cop/doc.
It was unclear to me is any role other than doc a good reason to claim as you might get protected (whether or not you are what you claim to be).


@Robz - that kinda makes sense, but doesn't make you any less scummy (most people would bring "you said differently in M2" anyway).

Gotta study now, I hope I can do that and not get too distracted with this.

@Tables - Axxle seems fine to me.
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Also, stating this:
Quote
If something I learned from BSG, I'd lynch a guy saying "I'm a scum" without breaking a sweat. (comparing it with Human playing a negative card into voting.. just because).
Well, in that case.

Ahem.

Pick me! I'm scum!

But seriously, Galz, I am at work and I shouldn't even BE posting right now. But rest assured that when I get home this evening I will put on my scumhunting hat and get to work.

I feel inclined to vote j.
It's a stupid and irrational move, jokingly or not.
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