Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1] 2  All

Author Topic: Transmute  (Read 9481 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

chwhite

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1065
  • Respect: +436
    • View Profile
Transmute
« on: June 01, 2012, 02:17:34 pm »
+22

Fixing up spelling/grammar/style etc.; will probably be making minor edits on this here and there over the next day or two.  Think I've hit all the major points, though.

TRANSMUTE


Is there any card more unloved than Mr. Transmute, with his sad eyes and mountain man beard, futilely trying to turn lead (Estates) into gold?  For most people, Transmute is a card whose main ability is showing up dead last in any ranking it's a part of:
* It was the worst potion card in Theory's front-page ranking.
* It won a plurality of votes in this forum topic asking for the "worst card in Dominion", garnering almost twice as many nods as the next most-hated cards, Duchess and Thief.
* In Qvist's card rankings, Transmute was not only dead last, but by a nearly unanimous vote. Only one person dared to dissent.
* And of course, Council Room stats bear out this general theme.  Only two cards- Thief and Counting House- have a worse "Win Rate With", and Transmute is near the bottom of most other metrics as well.

So, what gives?  Why is Transmute thought of so poorly?  Does it deserve all the scorn it gets?  And when can it be useful?  The fact of the matter is that Transmute is indeed a weak card, since it is so awkward and slow to buy and use.  Most of the time, it's best avoided.  However, there are in fact a number of situations where it can be useful: it may not be good, but it's better than you think.

Why do you usually not want Transmute?

Described by Donald X. as an "exotic Remodel" in the Alchemy Secret History, Transmute is a trash-for-benefit card that (like most TFB cards) works on only one card at a time.  The main thematic conceit of Transmute is that it changes the nature of the card from one type to another: Victory cards become Treasure (always Gold, which is thematically fitting and also the best Treasure always in the game); Treasure becomes Actions (always Transmute, since it's the only Action always in the game with Transmute), and Actions beam Victory (Duchy, which again is always out).  It's a cycle!

Like its closest relatives Remodel, Expand, and Develop, the benefit is "more/better cards".  It does not give cash and/or +Buy (Trade Route, Salvager, Moneylender, Spice Merchant), nor +Card (Apprentice, Spice Merchant), nor is it VP chips and cash (Bishop).  All other things being equal, this is the weakest category of trasher there is.  If you are trashing early, to thin your deck for an engine, then you really want a card which can get rid of multiple Coppers and Estates at a time, like Chapel/Remake/Steward.  Failing that, you'd prefer for the card to give you cash to make good purchases now, as Moneylender/Salvager does, or at least be non-terminal like Upgrade and Apprentice.

So, cards in the Remodel family are generally not for early-game use, but are better in the mid-to-late game, where they can turn mediocre cards into great ones (say Developing a Sea Hag into Cartographer/Silver after the Curses are gone), or Gold into Province, or burn through the Colony stack to prematurely the end the game with a lead. But, if you take a closer look at Transmute, you'll see that it doesn't have the same flexibility as Remodel and Expand, and seems to want to be used more in the early game.  You can't just get anything, you have to take what the 'Mute gives you, and if you don't want those things, then you don't want the 'Mute.

The most immediately appealing use, of course, it to turn your starting Estates into Gold, making the most useless card in most decks into the most useful; it's also an improvement of $4 worth of value, better than any other trash-for-benefit Action.  This needs to be done early, though, because otherwise you could just buy Gold.  If you could pick up Transmute on Turn 1, then you'd have a good chance of turning Estate into Gold on Turns 3/4.  That hypothetical card would be a strong but swingy opening in the vein of Baron, which also relies on Estate collision to work. 

But you can't pick it up on Turn 1, because Transmute has that most awkward cost: Potion.  You need to open Potion, and then you need to throw away all the rest of the money that came with your Potion on Turns 3/4 to get the Transmute.  And by then, your deck has diluted to the point that you're very likely to draw Transmute with four coppers and wish you had just bought Silver and Gold instead, like your opponent who is pulling down $5s and $6s.  Pursuing Transmute early as a source of deck-thinning and Gold gain is, like opening Treasure Maps without strong support, almost guaranteed to fail.  The simulators have shown, in fact, that there is no way to add Transmute to an optimized BM strategy and gain advantage.

The other options are even less appealing.  Turning Treasure into more Transmutes is obviously horrible on most boards: your terminal density will skyrocket, you'd have better luck just buying stuff with Copper!  Turning Actions into Duchies is a better proposition, and actually slots well into late-game use, but even that has its problems.  Duchy is fine and all, but it's no Province, and if you have the Actions to burn, chances are you'd prefer to build up to Province or Colony anyway- in general it's money decks that want the Duchies more.  In addition, you're still left with the problem that Transmute's potion cost is really awkward unless you have other desirable Potion cards and/or +Buy: even if you do have an Action chain that needs to grab a bunch of Duchies late, when are you going to go out of your way to get the Transmute?  And using Transmute to power a Duke strategy is not usually going to be the best plan: an opponent who has a deck full of Silvers will steal the Duchies underneath you, and have the money left to buy Duke afterwards.

So, to review:  You don't really ever want Transmute when there's faster trashing (which is most everything that's not Remodel, Expand, Trade Route, and Develop). You don't want it when there's a fast Big Money strategy that doesn't need trashing.  You don't want it if there's a slow Big Money strategy- you'd rather buy no Kingdom card than Transmutes.  You don't even want it with Dukes most of the time.  When would you ever want one?

When do you want Transmute?

Well… the first line of Transmute is "Trash a card from your hand."  Not every card is an Action, a Victory, or a Treasure.  The above analysis has so far failed to mention the fourth type of card: Curse.  Curses are bad.  Real bad.  They slow you down, kill your buying power, and your score.  You want them out of your deck come hell or high water (well, maybe you can handle them if you have something like Vault, or a zillion Golds, but generally this is true.)  They are worse than Estate- and they are so bad that the vast majority of trash-for-benefit cards give you no benefit for them, since getting rid of that Curse is benefit enough.  Apprentice gives you zero cards.  Salvager gives you zero dollars.  Bishop may as well be trashing the empty air.  Remodel… very often will force you take an Estate or Copper.

In this company, Transmute does just as well as the rest of 'em.

If you have lots of Curses being flown about, than Transmute will have more targets: not only will it turn Estate to Gold, but if it's the only way to turn Curse into nothing, that's worth it too.  And with Curses around, the game will slow down: you're more likely to have $P or $1P hands where you can't buy anything else, and you'll also have enough turns such that the slow Estate-to-Gold action is actually worth it.  Now if only there was another Potion card that gave out Curses, such that by opening Potion you are gaining access to not only a way to give out Curses, but a way to fix up your own deck too.

Yep.  Familiar.  Familiar is by far Transmute's best friend.  What's even better is that, since Familiar is non-terminal, you don't need to worry about collisions.  And once the Curses run out, Familiar -> Duchy ain't so bad either.  I would go so far as to say that whenever you want to buy Familiar, you also want to buy Transmute, since the main contraindication for Transmute that is still relevant in Curse games - strong, multi-card trashing - is also a contraindication for Familiar, which is often too slow against the likes of Chapel anyway.

Of course, what makes Familiar such a good partner to Transmute is that it provides the two strongest triggers for a useful Transmute - Curses and other Potion cards which you also want - in one package.  There are a handful of such triggers, which either minimize the 'Mute's weaknesses, or make its less-useful features more useful.  On sufficiently weak boards it might be worth it to go Transmute with only one of those triggers, but normally Transmute needs two or more to really shine.  Here they are, with some sample games to show how the Transmute can add value to a surprisingly wide variety of decks:

Trigger 1: Other Potion Cards (Trigger 1a: Familiar)

The big thing about having other Potion-cost cards in the setup is that it drastically reduces the opportunity cost for Transmute, since you want that Potion anyway.  If you're building an engine with +Buy, so much the better, since than you can pick up Transmute with your other cash as well, and +Actions are also useful, to ensure that the 'Mute can actually be played.

Here is a good example of Transmute fitting into an Alchemy-heavy deck: not just Familiars, but Golem, Apothecary, Alchemist, and Vineyard are all on tap here- and Herbalist for +Buy!  Add in Tournament and Fairgrounds, and you have a long, messy, high-scoring game where Transmute is used to good effect on all four types of cards (Action, Treasure, Victory, Curse).

Trigger 1b: Vineyard

After Familiar, Vineyard is the second-best Potion card to pair with Transmute.  The reason for this is that Vineyard decks actually want you to go Copper -> Transmute, because then you're increasing your Action count and pumping your Vineyards; therefore, Transmute will basically always have a useful target.  Get one early, and they will be fruitful and multiply.

This match against JimmerFan features both Alchemist and Vineyard, and Pawn for +Buy.  The Transmutes are happy to hit Estate early and Copper late, and thus facilitate both Provinces and Vineyards.  With Alchemist and Vineyard, the second potion becomes a good idea, further lowering the opportunity cost of buying the 'Mute.

In this one, ehunt shows how Vineyard-Transmute can even best a strong double-Tac Conspirator deck- his six Vineyards are worth 7 VP each at the end.

Trigger 2: Curse-givers

Familiar isn't the only Curse-giver which slows the game down enough to make Transmute worth it.  Sometimes it can be worth it to get the Potion, to get the Transmute, primarily to clear Curses (but Gold and Duchy is also welcome), on slowish boards.  If there are top-notch BM sifters and +Card effects like Embassy, you don't necessarily want to bother.

Here's one against WanderingWinder with IGG and Hag, where frankly I erred in not buying the Transmute earlier.  This one also had Golem as another reason to buy Potion, and it clears me of all my Estates and Curses.  Playing Transmute on Coppers also marginally increases the chance of Menagerie hitting, making it less obviously bad than usual.

Other cards which dramatically slow down the game can sometimes substitute for Curse as a trigger: in situations such as this 3p Ambassador game, everything is slow and junky enough that Transmuting Estates into Gold, believe it or not, was the fastest way to actually get spending power.

Trigger 3: Copper-specific trashing

Once in a rare while, Transmute can actually be half of a dedicated early-game deck-tuning strategy, turning Estates into Gold while another card takes care of the Coppers.  This strategy is probably too slow against a strong BM + X that can handle the Estates and Coppers, and is smoked by real top-level trashers.  But if, for instance, Colonies are out, the slow start can actually be worth it.  Then, in the late-game, the 'Mute can sneak out a Duchy or two, which is more than you can say for Chapel in most endgames. 

This one required opportunistic shuffling, but when you can take the first-turn Mint AND still buy Potion on Turn 3, you are going to have a deck stuffed to the brim with Gold very quickly.  A better example is this Potion/Loan opening, which might have been slow for Provinces but was absolutely worth it in the presence of Colony.

Trigger 4: Alternate VPs, especially Duke

In addition to Vineyard and Colony, a couple other alternate VP cards can be a reason to consider Transmute.  One possibility which is generally more interesting in theory than practice is dual-type cards: Action-Victory cards give you a Gold and a Duchy, while Treasure-Victory cards give you Gold and Transmute.  That "bargain" is basically never worth it for Harem and hardly any better for Nobles, so we can set them aside; but Gold and Duchy for a Great Hall is a better deal, and might be something to be aware of, if you have other reasons to pick up those cards in the first place.

Duke, on the other hand, can sometimes be facilitated by Transmuting Actions into Duchy if the conditions are right.  In this game the presence of Curse and an Inn-fueled engine is a boost to this approach, while in this game, Stef builds a massive Action-happy Scrying Pool-Transmute engine which gets the money necessary to buy multiple Dukes on the last couple of turns from... Transmuted Gold.

...

Generally, if at least (preferably more than) one of these triggers are out, and none of the strong contraindications for Transmute are out (basically, superior trashing or a faster-than-usual BM strategy), it's a card worth considering.  Transmute is tricky to play, it's among the most slow and situational cards in the Dominion universe.  But good situations do exist, so cheer up mountain man!

Works with:
* Familiar, Familiar, Familiar
* Other game-slowing curse-givers
* Alchemy-heavy setups, especially those with +Action and +Buy
* Copper-specific trashing
* Vineyard
* Great Hall, Duke, Colony (sometimes)

Doesn't work with:
* Most normal Province games
* Uncomplicated BM strategies
* Alternate VP cards that aren't Vineyard or Duke
* Superior trashing
* Fast games in general
« Last Edit: June 01, 2012, 08:40:22 pm by chwhite »
Logged
To discard or not to discard?  That is the question.

blueblimp

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2783
  • Respect: +1507
    • View Profile
Re: Transmute
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2012, 02:47:22 pm »
0

A better example is this Potion/Loan opening, which might have been slow for Provinces but was absolutely worth it in the presence of Colony.

Question about this game: on turn 7, you preferred to buy a Lighthouse rather than an Oasis or a Silver, even though there's no attack card present. Then on turn 8, you spend $5P on a Lighthouse. What's the reasoning here?
Logged

qmech

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1918
  • Shuffle iT Username: qmech
  • What year is it?
  • Respect: +2314
    • View Profile
Re: Transmute
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2012, 03:09:48 pm »
+6

it is smoked by real top-level tarsiers



I know you're going to fix it later.  Sorry. :-)
Logged

chwhite

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1065
  • Respect: +436
    • View Profile
Re: Transmute
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2012, 03:11:21 pm »
0

it is smoked by real top-level tarsiers



I know you're going to fix it later.  Sorry. :-)

Goddamn Autocorrect always does that for some reason.

Yeah, I'll fix it up in a bit.
Logged
To discard or not to discard?  That is the question.

chwhite

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1065
  • Respect: +436
    • View Profile
Re: Transmute
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2012, 03:32:04 pm »
0

A better example is this Potion/Loan opening, which might have been slow for Provinces but was absolutely worth it in the presence of Colony.

Question about this game: on turn 7, you preferred to buy a Lighthouse rather than an Oasis or a Silver, even though there's no attack card present. Then on turn 8, you spend $5P on a Lighthouse. What's the reasoning here?

Lighthouse was preferable to Silver because I wanted to keep the number of non-Copper Treasure cards relatively low at that point for Loan purposes. And since I didn't have great draw the Lighthouse was almost as good as Silver anyway (also given the amount of Platina I anticipated buying, Silver missing the reshuffle was not that bad when/if it happened).

Why not Oasis... I'm not entirely sure.  At that point in the game I think I was operating under the assumption that I wanted to keep Estates in hand for 'Mute trashing, maybe?  Or I preferred Silver-equivalent to Peddler (really less than Peddler since at that point in the game my green was getting cleared out).
Logged
To discard or not to discard?  That is the question.

Jfrisch

  • Golem
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 199
  • Respect: +163
    • View Profile
Re: Transmute
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2012, 03:32:57 pm »
0

I was curious was a tarsier was...
Logged

qmech

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1918
  • Shuffle iT Username: qmech
  • What year is it?
  • Respect: +2314
    • View Profile
Re: Transmute
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2012, 03:46:10 pm »
0

A superb article.  I don't think I've ever played a game where I made good use of Transmute, and I'm not sure I've ever played against anybody making good use of Transmute, but I'll keep an eye out for both in future.

I like that the example games are spread out over more than a year.  It reinforces the sense that opportunities for Transmute to shine are rare, special events.
Logged

DG

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4067
  • Respect: +2608
    • View Profile
Re: Transmute
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2012, 03:46:58 pm »
0

Good article. I don't feel that extra buys are needed for transmute though. All card gainers can become important in kingdoms where players are limited to one buy each turn and the transmute is no exception.
Logged

chwhite

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1065
  • Respect: +436
    • View Profile
Re: Transmute
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2012, 03:49:57 pm »
0

Good article. I don't feel that extra buys are needed for transmute though. All card gainers can become important in kingdoms where players are limited to one buy each turn and the transmute is no exception.

Yeah, true.  The extra +Buys are particularly helpful if you're using Transmute to support Scrying Pool or Vineyard, less so if they're the junior partner in a Familiar deck instead.
Logged
To discard or not to discard?  That is the question.

chwhite

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1065
  • Respect: +436
    • View Profile
Re: Transmute
« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2012, 03:54:50 pm »
+1

A superb article.  I don't think I've ever played a game where I made good use of Transmute, and I'm not sure I've ever played against anybody making good use of Transmute, but I'll keep an eye out for both in future.

I like that the example games are spread out over more than a year.  It reinforces the sense that opportunities for Transmute to shine are rare, special events.

I think it's not that rare: there were a bunch of other examples I considered, a lot of which date from early this year, which is when I first started to really pay attention to Transmute.  I buy it about 20 percent of the time, granted I would expect most people to have it work out less often than that.  Transmute/Familiar is pretty common in my experience, stuff like Mint/Duchess/Transmute or Transmute/Loan is going to be more of a special, rare thing though.
Logged
To discard or not to discard?  That is the question.

jomini

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1003
  • Respect: +704
    • View Profile
Re: Transmute
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2012, 10:38:51 pm »
0

The places I've had it work really well have been where I've picked it up opportunistically in games with no +buy. Getting that parity breaking duchy from trashing a haven or whatever can save a good number of games. Other times you can double duchy a hand and break for a lead. I'd throw a lack of other +buy/VP gain in as a condition that would encourage getting mute. It is nowhere near strong enough alone, but I will be quicker to buy a mute, even over a decent 2 like haven, if there is no other way to break purchase parity.

Three lesser conditions that also influence getting transmute are diversity rewards, trash for benefit engines, and and goons engines.

Fairgrounds rewards you directly for grabbing a transmute; it can also allow you to pick up a duchy and maybe even a gold as well without wasting a buy that could go towards a fairgrounds instead. If transmute is going to be one of your 15 (10, 20 etc.) cards, then you generally want it early so you can get the gold & duchy without it being a dead card. Menage likes transmute as it can be used to trash the duplicate estates and help lower copper density. It can be particularly good to add to a +action menage engine (e.g. menage/university/festival) that can trash duplicate cards out of hand for increased cycling. Harvest also likes transmute, particularly in an engine where you can control harvest draws - you can either transmute from hand to power the harvest with either another mute or a duchy (to become a gold later) or get the mute into the top deck.

Because mute adds the most value per card; it can be useful to set up an engine that gains estates and burns golds. For instance apprentice, cantrip + buy (e.g. market) and mute can let you burn a gold each turn for big hands, buy a province & estate for only 10 coin, and then to mute the estate to a gold.


Goons engines can like transmute as it is a cheap (if you already have the pot) - letting you get more VP and sometimes it can be a better filler card than coppers or curses; particularly if you are very action/draw rich (e.g. KC/university/governor/goons) you can hit mute (mute -> duchy -> gold) and buy more goons more quickly.

Logged

Geronimoo

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1046
  • Respect: +838
    • View Profile
    • Geronimoo's Dominion Simulator
Re: Transmute
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2012, 05:00:30 am »
0

Good article! I'm sure theory is going to have this up on the main blog pretty soon. Some remarks:

-the article is a bit long (especially for a card that you shouldn't buy most of the time). Most of the single card articles on the main blog are slightly more condensed. I'd suggest you shrink the "why you don't want Transmute"-section. It mostly boils down to the opportunity cost of having to buy Potion. I think one paragraph should do.
-the bolded in-between titles should be repeated in the text because a reader will tend to skip those titles and he might not realize he's reading the "why not to buy"-section
-I was hoping to see strong evidence that there are times where you want transmute when there are no other cards in the kingdom that require Potion (like Familiar or Scrying Pool), but I'm still not convinced. The Potion/Loan game looked like a lot of fun, but I still believe it's safer for most players to always avoid Transmute except for cursed Colony games or games where you want Potion for a good card.
Logged

chwhite

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1065
  • Respect: +436
    • View Profile
Re: Transmute
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2012, 12:23:41 am »
0

To jomini-

Do you have a good example of a transmute game where it's primarily useful for the Duchy gain in the absence of +Buy?  I'm hesitant to put up more conditions without a good illustration, but if we have one I'm happy to fit it in.

I think the other lesser conditions are good things to keep in mind, but I'm sort of worried the article is too long as it is.  I actually thought about adding diversity rewards: when I was looking over sample games, I found that many of the cases where I used Transmute for curse clearing in the absence of other potions were in fact Menagerie engine games.  So I'm convinced there is some synergy there.  But I'm not sure it rises to more than a passing remark, since any card can provide diversity.  And Goons were definitely featured in one of the games I left on the cutting room floor- that was an example were Transmute was the only potion, and the only way to get rid of curses, and the potential for a Goons engine made curse-clearing that much more valuable.


To Geronimoo-

I think that there's more than just the opportunity cost of Potion that hurts Transmute: the general weakness of Remodel-style cards and particular inflexibility of the 'Mute are also points I want to touch on.  But I'll try and condense it a little bit. 

And obviously I do disagree that "cursed Colony games" are the only consistent reason to get the Mute as your only Potion card.  Plenty of my 'Mute games are cursed Province games, at the very least.  And I think the Potion/Loan game does in fact provide a possible template for Transmute use.  Relatively weak board + Copper trasher (Loan is probably best since it's $3; I'm tempted to try Steward or Chapel with the Mute someday, actually) + Transmute is, while not a common occurrence, something that is going to come up every once in a while.  I would have taken the same strategy if this was a Province game, though I wouldn't be as confident in its success.
Logged
To discard or not to discard?  That is the question.

Geronimoo

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1046
  • Respect: +838
    • View Profile
    • Geronimoo's Dominion Simulator
Re: Transmute
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2012, 03:06:49 am »
0

Why is everyone in this thread starting to say 'Mute instead of Transmute?
Logged

O

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 836
  • Respect: +602
    • View Profile
Re: Transmute
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2012, 03:08:47 am »
0

'Cause 'tis more fun to type with apostrophes.
Logged

HiveMindEmulator

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2222
  • Respect: +2096
    • View Profile
Re: Transmute
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2012, 03:14:54 am »
+1

Why is everyone in this thread starting to say 'Mute instead of Transmute?
We should call them "trannies" instead.
Logged

ashersky

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2339
  • 2013/2014/2015 Mafia Mod of the Year
  • Respect: +1511
    • View Profile
Re: Transmute
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2012, 04:04:47 am »
0

-I was hoping to see strong evidence that there are times where you want transmute when there are no other cards in the kingdom that require Potion (like Familiar or Scrying Pool), but I'm still not convinced. The Potion/Loan game looked like a lot of fun, but I still believe it's safer for most players to always avoid Transmute except for cursed Colony games or games where you want Potion for a good card.

My one and only "good" use of Transmute (and it was the only potion cost card) came in an IGG game where I was able to trash coppers to 3-pile with curses, IGG, and Transmutes.  Plenty of coppers coming in from IGGs anyway, and it only took the one Transmute to get rolling.
Logged
f.ds Mafia Board Moderator

2013, 2014, 2015 Mafia Mod of the Year

Games (30): Mafia: 17, 21, 24, 31, 39, 43, 67, 72, 86 || Newbie: 7 || RMM: 6, 7, 10, 20, 22, 26, 32, 45 || Blitz: 4-7, X, 17-19, 22, 24 || BM: 14, 19

2015 f.ds Representative, World Forum Mafia Championships
2013, 2014 Mafia Player of the Year (Tie)

Town: 47 Games, 24 Wins
Scum: 22 Games, 13 Wins
11x MVP: M30, M83, ZM16, M25, M38, M61, M76, RMM5, RMM41, RMM46, M51

DG

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4067
  • Respect: +2608
    • View Profile
Re: Transmute
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2012, 08:53:31 am »
0

This game from the isodom tournament seems to answer some of the requests for a transmute example. The transmutes could perhaps trash out curses and enable a larger drawing strategy, trash estates for valuable gold, or enable a duchy rush.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201204/10/game-20120410-173205-5da39815.html
Logged

gamesou

  • Apprentice
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 286
  • Respect: +336
    • View Profile
Re: Transmute
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2012, 01:15:01 pm »
0

Is this a board where Transmute is dominant ?

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201206/03/game-20120603-101045-343a333a.html

It has the 3-cards combo Apothecary/Mint/Transmute, which makes you easily draw and trash your initial coppers, and transmute the estates into mintable golds. Very fun to play !
Logged
Designer of Chronos Conquest

RisingJaguar

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 527
  • Respect: +184
    • View Profile
Re: Transmute
« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2012, 10:18:37 am »
0

I'm just trying to get a feel of the power of transmute here. 

Lets say there is a familiar game with transmute and a similar trasher, develop*.  If I got 3+P JUST after all the curses (you can swap this with any number, I chose a higher number so that buying a familiar isn't an option) have been given out, would I want a silver, transmute or develop?

**I used develop here because the idea that transmute would be to trash curses one by one and develop does this effect just as equally (but the side effects of trashing others would be different). 
Logged

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4364
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: Transmute
« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2012, 10:23:03 am »
0

I'm just trying to get a feel of the power of transmute here. 

Lets say there is a familiar game with transmute and a similar trasher, develop*.  If I got 3+P JUST after all the curses (you can swap this with any number, I chose a higher number so that buying a familiar isn't an option) have been given out, would I want a silver, transmute or develop?

**I used develop here because the idea that transmute would be to trash curses one by one and develop does this effect just as equally (but the side effects of trashing others would be different). 
Depends on the rest of the board, particularly for develop. But also to know, what else are your decks consisting of here? But I'm thinking prolly transmute. Love to hear what chwhite thinks though.

chwhite

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1065
  • Respect: +436
    • View Profile
Re: Transmute
« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2012, 10:27:19 am »
0

I'm just trying to get a feel of the power of transmute here. 

Lets say there is a familiar game with transmute and a similar trasher, develop*.  If I got 3+P JUST after all the curses (you can swap this with any number, I chose a higher number so that buying a familiar isn't an option) have been given out, would I want a silver, transmute or develop?

**I used develop here because the idea that transmute would be to trash curses one by one and develop does this effect just as equally (but the side effects of trashing others would be different). 
Depends on the rest of the board, particularly for develop. But also to know, what else are your decks consisting of here? But I'm thinking prolly transmute. Love to hear what chwhite thinks though.

Agreed, it depends on the board but most likely transmute.  The curse trashing is going to be the same, and you don't really want to trash your coppers either way, but Transmute will do a better job on Estates (Gold > Silver, even with top-decking), and most likely on Familiars as well (Duchy is a good card here, since you're so swamped in junk; you won't really be able to take full advantage of Develop's features unless there's Golem AND a 2P card).

Develop is an interesting comparison to Transmute because it has many of the same drawbacks, but not the biggest one (Potion cost); I similarly tend to look at it more favorably in slow Curse games.  It's rare that I'd buy the 'Mute over Develop unless I had Potion already, but if you have Potion already than obviously the Transmute is much more appealing.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2012, 10:33:29 am by chwhite »
Logged
To discard or not to discard?  That is the question.

chwhite

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1065
  • Respect: +436
    • View Profile
Re: Transmute
« Reply #22 on: June 04, 2012, 10:29:15 am »
0

Is this a board where Transmute is dominant ?

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201206/03/game-20120603-101045-343a333a.html

It has the 3-cards combo Apothecary/Mint/Transmute, which makes you easily draw and trash your initial coppers, and transmute the estates into mintable golds. Very fun to play !

I'm not surprised at all to see Transmute shine here.  It's got other Potion cards (Apothecary) and a zillion ways to get your Copper out of the way (Mint, Remake, Apothecary).  Definitely a good board for the card.
Logged
To discard or not to discard?  That is the question.

jomini

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1003
  • Respect: +704
    • View Profile
Re: Transmute
« Reply #23 on: June 04, 2012, 10:33:26 am »
0

Chwhite: Not with logs no. I've found transmute in a buy-less university engine to be a good bet. You can afford to be a bit slower because you can grab duchies forcing your opponent to break 5/3 on the provinces for a win. University provides plenty of fodder for muting, but can't gain VP.

While any card can provide diversity, transmute is better for a few simple reasons. Menage/transmute/+action means that you can increase diversity by using the transmute. Menage/estate/estate/transmute/festival will hit after you play the mute, menage/estate/estate/navigator/festival will not; and unlike moneylender or spice merchants, mute can go after any of the problem cards in hand - estates, coppers, or transmutes. Likewise, fairgrounds games tend to be constrained by coin - you only get so many 6 coin hands when filling your deck with random cards, and by buys. Transmute is a cheap way to get around both of those limitations. Get a gold without having to waste a buy or buying power. Get a duchy without having to use a buy or sacrifice a fairgrounds.

I don't know how much to put in there, but I'd consider some mention of "transmute provides diversity in a cost efficient manner"; it really is better than many terminals at doing it (assuming you already have the potion for other reasons).
Logged

RisingJaguar

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 527
  • Respect: +184
    • View Profile
Re: Transmute
« Reply #24 on: June 04, 2012, 10:37:20 am »
0

I'm just trying to get a feel of the power of transmute here. 

Lets say there is a familiar game with transmute and a similar trasher, develop*.  If I got 3+P JUST after all the curses (you can swap this with any number, I chose a higher number so that buying a familiar isn't an option) have been given out, would I want a silver, transmute or develop?

**I used develop here because the idea that transmute would be to trash curses one by one and develop does this effect just as equally (but the side effects of trashing others would be different). 
Depends on the rest of the board, particularly for develop. But also to know, what else are your decks consisting of here? But I'm thinking prolly transmute. Love to hear what chwhite thinks though.

Agreed, it depends on the board but most likely transmute.  The curse trashing is going to be the same, and you don't really want to trash your coppers either way, but Transmute will do a better job on Estates (Gold > Silver), and most likely on Familiars as well (Duchy is a good card here, since you're so swamped in junk; you won't really be able to take full advantage of Develop's features unless there's Golem AND a 2P card).
I was thinking along the same lines, but I guess develop's only benefit would be the trashing of potion over transmute's version. 

I know I should consider my deck composition, kingdom set up, etc. but I just needed a general idea of 1. Transmute vs. silver and 2. Transmute vs. similar trasher.

I'm guessing Salvager in this hypothetical game would be competitive with transmute (assuming no other potions because that I didn't consider).
Logged
Pages: [1] 2  All
 

Page created in 0.146 seconds with 20 queries.