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Author Topic: Apparently this is where people talk when it's night  (Read 294231 times)

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spiritbears

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Re: Apparently this is where people talk when it's night
« Reply #1250 on: June 19, 2013, 11:22:33 am »

I tend to think the problem is that people just don't tend to enjoy playing or put in as much effort as Town as they do as scum, and lazy Townies make for easy mislynches. Scum make more of an effort not to do things that we all know will be seen as scummy.

In other words, town be losing cause I'm not playing. ;)
Then you need to auto in as town only. :)
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Apparently this is where people talk when it's night
« Reply #1251 on: June 19, 2013, 11:54:59 am »

I tend to think the problem is that people just don't tend to enjoy playing or put in as much effort as Town as they do as scum, and lazy Townies make for easy mislynches. Scum make more of an effort not to do things that we all know will be seen as scummy.

In other words, town be losing cause I'm not playing. ;)

I don't recall ever playing with you. Them's strong words. Would like to see these scumhunting skills in action.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Apparently this is where people talk when it's night
« Reply #1252 on: June 19, 2013, 12:46:27 pm »

I tend to think the problem is that people just don't tend to enjoy playing or put in as much effort as Town as they do as scum, and lazy Townies make for easy mislynches. Scum make more of an effort not to do things that we all know will be seen as scummy.

In other words, town be losing cause I'm not playing. ;)

I don't recall ever playing with you. Them's strong words. Would like to see these scumhunting skills in action.

Maybe I'm just commenting on how bad I am as scum. ;) ;)

But you could check out Robz' first big game (uhh... MXI?) for where Galz and I smacked the scum around as VTs and had to be eliminated early. :P
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Galzria

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Re: Apparently this is where people talk when it's night
« Reply #1253 on: June 19, 2013, 12:55:20 pm »

I tend to think the problem is that people just don't tend to enjoy playing or put in as much effort as Town as they do as scum, and lazy Townies make for easy mislynches. Scum make more of an effort not to do things that we all know will be seen as scummy.

In other words, town be losing cause I'm not playing. ;)

Yeah....

You and I both know how THAT ends up.....

"He's trying way too hard! Obvscum! Lyyyyynch hiiiiiiim!"
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.

Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

Galzria

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Re: Apparently this is where people talk when it's night
« Reply #1254 on: June 19, 2013, 01:02:10 pm »

I tend to think the problem is that people just don't tend to enjoy playing or put in as much effort as Town as they do as scum, and lazy Townies make for easy mislynches. Scum make more of an effort not to do things that we all know will be seen as scummy.

In other words, town be losing cause I'm not playing. ;)

Yeah....

You and I both know how THAT ends up.....

"He's trying way too hard! Obvscum! Lyyyyynch hiiiiiiim!"

And while that itself is a joke, it's only funny because it's true that there's a real problem in that the collective town in any given game almost always seems to actively go out and punish good town play. People get so afraid of anybody stepping up their game that it makes for Towns that cannot play well without lynching themselves.

That is, mcmc believes we're at the point where games are in the hands of scum to win or lose, and I agree, only because our Towns refuse to let themselves go out and win.
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.

Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

spiritbears

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Re: Apparently this is where people talk when it's night
« Reply #1255 on: June 19, 2013, 01:25:09 pm »

I tend to think the problem is that people just don't tend to enjoy playing or put in as much effort as Town as they do as scum, and lazy Townies make for easy mislynches. Scum make more of an effort not to do things that we all know will be seen as scummy.

In other words, town be losing cause I'm not playing. ;)

Yeah....

You and I both know how THAT ends up.....

"He's trying way too hard! Obvscum! Lyyyyynch hiiiiiiim!"

And while that itself is a joke, it's only funny because it's true that there's a real problem in that the collective town in any given game almost always seems to actively go out and punish good town play. People get so afraid of anybody stepping up their game that it makes for Towns that cannot play well without lynching themselves.

That is, mcmc believes we're at the point where games are in the hands of scum to win or lose, and I agree, only because our Towns refuse to let themselves go out and win.
That wasn't the case st all in mean girls. We mislyched the disinterested and lurkers. And almost lynched our IC bbecause he wss purposefully playing scummy. In the end, yuma and eevee had so sold me on their town play I couldn't see them as scum
Although in hindsigh
The cluesnwere there
« Last Edit: June 19, 2013, 01:26:50 pm by spiritbears »
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Twistedarcher

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Re: Apparently this is where people talk when it's night
« Reply #1256 on: June 19, 2013, 02:18:34 pm »

Galz + eHalc, you guys should sign up for some more games and show us your scumhunting skills!
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spiritbears

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Re: Apparently this is where people talk when it's night
« Reply #1257 on: June 19, 2013, 02:21:08 pm »

Galz + eHalc, you guys should sign up for some more games and show us your scumhunting skills!
This
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Twistedarcher

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Re: Apparently this is where people talk when it's night
« Reply #1258 on: June 19, 2013, 02:22:11 pm »

I tend to think the problem is that people just don't tend to enjoy playing or put in as much effort as Town as they do as scum, and lazy Townies make for easy mislynches. Scum make more of an effort not to do things that we all know will be seen as scummy.

In other words, town be losing cause I'm not playing. ;)

Yeah....

You and I both know how THAT ends up.....

"He's trying way too hard! Obvscum! Lyyyyynch hiiiiiiim!"

Heh, I feel like this is kind of what happened to me D2 of Pirates. I had the correct lynch, and I KNEW mail-mi was scum, but instead I was the one who ended up getting lynched. :(
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Axxle

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Re: Apparently this is where people talk when it's night
« Reply #1259 on: June 19, 2013, 03:20:26 pm »

Galz + eHalc, you guys should sign up for some more games and show us your scumhunting skills!
Correct Lynch % (with at least 10 lynches) Axxle (82%)



(to be fair a lot of it is because I'm voting town but just not on the lynch of the day)
« Last Edit: June 19, 2013, 03:23:25 pm by Axxle »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Apparently this is where people talk when it's night
« Reply #1260 on: June 19, 2013, 04:10:41 pm »

Galz + eHalc, you guys should sign up for some more games and show us your scumhunting skills!

I think it's not so much skill as it is willingness to go back and build real cases, as well as the stubbornness to argue those cases and not roll over and concede.  When I put together big cases, I was accused of tunneling and such, but I wouldn't give in unless they put together a real case of their own.

That's also why I haven't been signing up for games.  I don't have the time to put in that effort, and I would rather sit out than be in a game half-heartedly.
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ashersky

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Re: Apparently this is where people talk when it's night
« Reply #1261 on: June 19, 2013, 04:13:11 pm »

Galz + eHalc, you guys should sign up for some more games and show us your scumhunting skills!

I think it's not so much skill as it is willingness to go back and build real cases, as well as the stubbornness to argue those cases and not roll over and concede.  When I put together big cases, I was accused of tunneling and such, but I wouldn't give in unless they put together a real case of their own.

That's also why I haven't been signing up for games.  I don't have the time to put in that effort, and I would rather sit out than be in a game half-heartedly.

I think this is a contributing factor.

If someone is town in three games and scum in one, they're focused on not getting caught, no matter which game they are in.
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Robz888

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Re: Apparently this is where people talk when it's night
« Reply #1262 on: June 19, 2013, 04:13:42 pm »

Okay, BUT, if the game takes overwhelmingly more effort for town to win, then the balance is off.

The counterpoint to this is... for awhile the complaint was the opposite, because we were playing so much multiball, where scum has a much harder time. In DS9, I worked harder for my scum victory than all my other games put together.
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ashersky

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Re: Apparently this is where people talk when it's night
« Reply #1263 on: June 19, 2013, 04:30:47 pm »

Town's biggest advantage has always been numbers.  Scum's biggest advantage is information.  PRs add more info to town's hands, usually.

I advocate for large-scale claiming in almost every game as town for this reason.  It nueters scum and levels the playing field.  It also forces scum to lie.

No one follows me, though.
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liopoil

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Re: Apparently this is where people talk when it's night
« Reply #1264 on: June 19, 2013, 04:34:22 pm »

I agree that massclaims are essential in many setups, particularly closed ones.
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Archetype

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Re: Apparently this is where people talk when it's night
« Reply #1265 on: June 19, 2013, 04:34:50 pm »

Town's biggest advantage has always been numbers.  Scum's biggest advantage is information.  PRs add more info to town's hands, usually.

I advocate for large-scale claiming in almost every game as town for this reason.  It nueters scum and levels the playing field.  It also forces scum to lie.

No one follows me, though.
I'm actually a big fan of mass claiming, especially in RMM games. Usually the Town's powers are greater than scum's once you know what's out there and you almost always catch at least one scum in a lie.

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Galzria

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Re: Apparently this is where people talk when it's night
« Reply #1266 on: June 19, 2013, 04:35:50 pm »

Okay, BUT, if the game takes overwhelmingly more effort for town to win, then the balance is off.

The counterpoint to this is... for awhile the complaint was the opposite, because we were playing so much multiball, where scum has a much harder time. In DS9, I worked harder for my scum victory than all my other games put together.

My argument isn't that town needs to "work harder than scum" though, it's that "When a town member puts in any modicum of work, they often get crucified by other townies for "trying too hard, therefore must be scum leading town astray"". Even in M-XXI, where eHal and I really did put in our share of the work to win, there were many people who wanted our heads with accusations of "who made you leader and why should we listen to you?" - And certainly, town NEEDS to question everything they read... But in many, many games that effort and those statements lead to a lynch of the person who is "trying too hard". This was evident in a handful of games following XXI, when eHal and I both got pounded on for actually doing some work

And sure, scum fan the flames of distrust, but they are rarely the driving voices, because if someone is playing a strong town game, but gets lynched anyway, scum doesn't want to be seen as the reason.

My point anyway, isn't that town doesn't need to do more work, it's that "town" needs to do a better job of not penalizing it's own members who do bother to try. (This is especially annoying when it's the lurker town making accusations at the playing town). Scum can still outplay town, sure, but it forces them to play a stronger game.
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.

Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

Jimmmmm

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Re: Apparently this is where people talk when it's night
« Reply #1267 on: June 19, 2013, 04:36:34 pm »

Town's biggest advantage has always been numbers.  Scum's biggest advantage is information.  PRs add more info to town's hands, usually.

I advocate for large-scale claiming in almost every game as town for this reason.  It nueters scum and levels the playing field.  It also forces scum to lie.

No one follows me, though.
I'm actually a big fan of mass claiming, especially in RMM games. Usually the Town's powers are greater than scum's once you know what's out there and you almost always catch at least one scum in a lie.



Also, it needs to either happen or not. Around half the Town claimed in LoTR, giving the Dragons near-perfect information on Day 3 or something.
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Galzria

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Re: Apparently this is where people talk when it's night
« Reply #1268 on: June 19, 2013, 04:44:38 pm »

Town's biggest advantage has always been numbers.  Scum's biggest advantage is information.  PRs add more info to town's hands, usually.

I advocate for large-scale claiming in almost every game as town for this reason.  It nueters scum and levels the playing field.  It also forces scum to lie.

No one follows me, though.

I'll admit to being one who subscribes to a different philosophy on the subject. Scum has an advantage of information, but it's limited. Town has an advantage in size. By massclaiming, you are only upping scum's knowledge, giving them a complete picture of the game state. Meanwhile, while you may or may not force them to lie (depending on setup), even if they do, town learns nothing about who to trust, thus what they gain is minimal.

Had everybody claimed D1 in Noir, what do you think would've happened to the bullet-proof town Roleblocker, arguably the strongest role town had? Probably exactly what happened D3 anyway, but still...
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.

Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

Archetype

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Re: Apparently this is where people talk when it's night
« Reply #1269 on: June 19, 2013, 04:50:23 pm »

Town's biggest advantage has always been numbers.  Scum's biggest advantage is information.  PRs add more info to town's hands, usually.

I advocate for large-scale claiming in almost every game as town for this reason.  It nueters scum and levels the playing field.  It also forces scum to lie.

No one follows me, though.
I'm actually a big fan of mass claiming, especially in RMM games. Usually the Town's powers are greater than scum's once you know what's out there and you almost always catch at least one scum in a lie.



Also, it needs to either happen or not. Around half the Town claimed in LoTR, giving the Dragons near-perfect information on Day 3 or something.
Yeah, it's usually an all or nothing deal. I remember I claimed super early because I figured there would be some sort of protection for me, and I didn't want to be lynched later for supposedly fake claiming it as scum. Turns out it sort it sorta worked, but you had gain too much tow credit that people would have believed your claim regardless of what you said. Oh well.I still feel like that game had too many scum.

A good example of how mass claiming helps nail scum is Major Arcana 2.
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Galzria

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Re: Apparently this is where people talk when it's night
« Reply #1270 on: June 19, 2013, 05:27:19 pm »

MA 2 is hardly a fair example. That was so unbalanced it was ridiculous. :P
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.

Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

Archetype

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Re: Apparently this is where people talk when it's night
« Reply #1271 on: June 19, 2013, 06:28:58 pm »

MA 2 is hardly a fair example. That was so unbalanced it was ridiculous. :P
It was heavily skewed towards scum, but we managed to eliminate enough of them to not lose by THAT much.
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yuma

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Re: Apparently this is where people talk when it's night
« Reply #1272 on: June 19, 2013, 07:38:14 pm »

Lastly, Power roles do need to come back to favoring town, and I mean just giving town power roles that help. Watcher and Tracker have such a super small chance of even doing anything in a game, and if you happen to see someone who isn't scum it can hurt you. IC in reality gives scum just as much as town a voice to follow and doesn't amount to much of anything, Robz use in the last game was amazing with it and still it equated to nothing but robz being forced to call a few lynches(this is worse than town trying to work toward a lynch together because it eliminates scum having to throw their voice in) We need more cops, cop catches scum or creates an IC each night he is alive and hits his target, on day 3 a reveal should create 3 IC's(depending on who is living) that would just about end the game, but hey all 3 people managed to live and cop was never blocked(oh yea roleblockers for scum should be back too, as well as a rolecop) then I think town deserves to have that advantage. I would say cop and JK work great as they can hurt eachother but they can work real well against a roleblocker/rolecop. Or give town a doc/JK/Rolecop and give scum a roleblocker. That way town has some huge saving potential and has a cop sortof, though getting back a vannilla result wouldn't give the rolecop any clue of alignment so it makes it a tad harder to create IC's and catch mafia. This way there are some huge PR's going on which influence the game and some vannilla's watching and trying to guess who is on their side fighting for them, who has knowledge of their alignment, and whose claim do they trust based on what makes sense for that player to do(see the last mean girls game, in retrospect doesn't my claim seem obviously right in the grand scheme of things vs ash's opportunistic play/bussdriver and yuma's radomly changing watcher role that watched the silly targets)

I disagree about the cop aspect. I think cops are by far the absolute worst role to have in a mafia game... and by worst I don't mean that they are weak, but rather that they are absolutely no fun to play with. Why? Because cops take the least amount of skill required to use them. Like you say cops are guaranteed a result: town or not town. That is huge, but more importantly it can completely eliminate a scum team just like that, boom, game over. Good game it was fun, but not that fun. Sure playing cop takes some skill, but not very much.

Whereas other roles--yes watcher is pretty weak--require much more skill in analyzing wifom, interactions, etc... And I think you give tracker a bad rap. It is actually a really good role. Because like cop you are guarnateed information: targeted someone, didn't target someone, but isn't as crushing as a cop investigation... it is especially more useful when mafia teams have other roles (rolecops, etc).

I am actually very intrigued by the roles of non-cop investigators... hence my game that I am hosting (Clue Mafia) having two investigative roles (detective, psychologist) that are powerful, but not as overwhelming as cops.

I think other powerful roles include Masons--I think every game we have played with masons, town has won yes?--JK (in my opinion the best and most powerful role in the game) and Commuter and I would like to see all three in more games to an extent, especially if the choice is one of the three and cop.
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yuma

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Re: Apparently this is where people talk when it's night
« Reply #1273 on: June 19, 2013, 07:41:20 pm »

Okay, BUT, if the game takes overwhelmingly more effort for town to win, then the balance is off.

The counterpoint to this is... for awhile the complaint was the opposite, because we were playing so much multiball, where scum has a much harder time. In DS9, I worked harder for my scum victory than all my other games put together.

I think I work equally hard in both sides of the game... But mafia is always harder. Always. See the most recent QT in Mean Girls... and I was doing that all game long, not just during the nights. Which isn't to say I don't do that as town either, but as town I put more energy into scum hunting. As mafia you have to worry about theory a lot more, interactions with other players, how other players view yourself, what roles are out there, who to NK, who to push for a lynch, and on and on and on. As town, you just find scum. Same energy and same time, but scum is harder. At least for me.
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Robz888

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Re: Apparently this is where people talk when it's night
« Reply #1274 on: June 19, 2013, 08:19:11 pm »

Okay, BUT, if the game takes overwhelmingly more effort for town to win, then the balance is off.

The counterpoint to this is... for awhile the complaint was the opposite, because we were playing so much multiball, where scum has a much harder time. In DS9, I worked harder for my scum victory than all my other games put together.

I think I work equally hard in both sides of the game... But mafia is always harder. Always. See the most recent QT in Mean Girls... and I was doing that all game long, not just during the nights. Which isn't to say I don't do that as town either, but as town I put more energy into scum hunting. As mafia you have to worry about theory a lot more, interactions with other players, how other players view yourself, what roles are out there, who to NK, who to push for a lynch, and on and on and on. As town, you just find scum. Same energy and same time, but scum is harder. At least for me.

Well, I don't agree, but maybe it's just a personal thing. I have a lot of games where I have worked VERY hard as town (Mafia IV, Mafia XII, Mafia XVI, Mafia XXIV) and lost.
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I have been forced to accept that lackluster play is a town tell for you.
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