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[O]

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120529-171513-59443735.html

My guess is that this is not an intentional scoring thing, but my points are recorded as -2 after I trash estates passed through masquerade. More comically, I also have -2 apprentices, -6 coppers, and -1 silver at the end of the game. Can gardens be worth negative points?


My next question is: Could my opponent save himself by keeping TR-Masquerade in hand (my pin is 4 cards if he has no masquerade, 3 cards if he has one), waiting for his hand to consist of only Throneroom/Masq, and then trashing two of my own cards? (stealing one, maybe).

If he did, would I then be able to pin back 2 of his cards, because I only have throne-room masquerade, leaving him with a one card deck, and me with a two card deck?

There are some interesting parity issues if that plan came into fruition. I can't really figure out all the endgame strategy of the pin here.

[rrenaud]

Masquerade breaks councilroom logs.  This is unfixable.

[Grujah]

Unfixable? 

[O]

Masquerade breaks councilroom logs.  This is unfixable.

I know it breaks the pointcounter, but is portraying a negative score without curses the best we can do?  Is it hard/impossible to put a floor on the score?

Or a catch that if you see an estate trashed that the player did not have, you go back and assume the estate was passed?

[WanderingWinder]

Masquerade breaks councilroom logs.  This is unfixable.

...with the way isotropic is. If a system (cough cough FunSockets) put what was passed in its logs, you could get around it relatively easily. If only Funsockets thought logs were a good idea...
Not that it's totally easy. If you're doing that, you have to farm more data into the logs than what you're telling the players, as with more than 2 people, you really don't know at least some of what got passed via masquerades. Masquerade makes headaches.

[WanderingWinder]

Unfixable? 

Yes. The data simply isn't there to know what was passed from the source (the isotropic logs), so when that data gets lost, it's irrecoverable.

[Grujah]

Unfixable? 

Yes. The data simply isn't there to know what was passed from the source (the isotropic logs), so when that data gets lost, it's irrecoverable.

Oh, I got it when I read your previous post.
If iso API/logs do not provide that info, yeah, it's quite .. impossible.
So it's fixable, it's in dougz field not rrenaud's.

[GendoIkari]

Masquerade breaks councilroom logs.  This is unfixable.

...with the way isotropic is. If a system (cough cough FunSockets) put what was passed in its logs, you could get around it relatively easily. If only Funsockets thought logs were a good idea...
Not that it's totally easy. If you're doing that, you have to farm more data into the logs than what you're telling the players, as with more than 2 people, you really don't know at least some of what got passed via masquerades. Masquerade makes headaches.

However, the logs already record more information than is publicly available.... namely, what cards are drawn for the next hand. This information is only known by 1 player (as is the information about what card is passed to a player via Masquerade), yet it shows up in the logs. This makes it seem to me that it would be a pretty small change for Dougz to put the Masquerade passing info in the logs.

[clb]

I am curious about that pin. All of the other pins that I can think of (am I completely missing something?) destroy the other players' hand, but leave you with some ability to progress the game. As it was, O and his opponent had just about no economy at the end of the game, and if his opponent hadn't resigned, they would have gone back and forth until three piles of choice were emptied and, presumably, O would have been able to buy the last estate as the last of the three piles on his last turn (with some advance planning). But after the buzz of the pin has worn off, what a tedious game that would be! I guess forcing your oponent to resign and getting the win that way would be fun, too....

[ftl]

It's just a tedious game.

Once the pin is set up and the other guy's deck is dead, just buy one copper per turn.

Or, you can stop the pin when there are 3 coppers left - you play TR,TR, Outpost,Masq, buy a copper, use the outpost turn to buy a copper, your opponent buys a copper, then on your turn you play masq to give him a throne room and take his copper. And bam, you have three coppers in your deck, enough to buy a silver, and thus enough to get an economy started, whereas the opponent can't get enough coppers. Faster than emptying out three piles while keeping the pin going.

[Young Nick]

Doesn't this not completely pin opponents seeing as they get a one card hand? That one card can be the Masquerade (see the OP) and then the pin is lost...

[ftl]

Yeah, it's not a perfect pin. If they get a one-card hand, they can keep a masq; so to prevent your own pin from being destroyed, you have to keep an extra copper; which leaves them with a two-card hand.

Still, three cards get destroyed per turn, so it'll eventually destroy their deck unless they really can keep up their buying power with 2-card hands.

It's not really escapable. If the pin leaves their opponent with only TR->Masq in the deck, then they can destroy your copper AND a second card from your hand - but you can have that second card be the outpost, which you no longer need at the point where they're down to two cards.

[blueblimp]

Normally I don't find these semi-pins very scary, because being reduced to a 2-card hand is not that bad and gives opportunity to break the pin. But on this board, where there isn't much going on engine-wise, and with that clever copper trick to prevent masquerade breaking the pin, maybe it is strong.

[Young Nick]

Yeah, it's not a perfect pin. If they get a one-card hand, they can keep a masq; so to prevent your own pin from being destroyed, you have to keep an extra copper; which leaves them with a two-card hand.

Still, three cards get destroyed per turn, so it'll eventually destroy their deck unless they really can keep up their buying power with 2-card hands.

It's not really escapable. If the pin leaves their opponent with only TR->Masq in the deck, then they can destroy your copper AND a second card from your hand - but you can have that second card be the outpost, which you no longer need at the point where they're down to two cards.

I guess what I'm saying is that they will be reduced to two cards for that turn, but then if they mess up your pin, they still could have more cards in their deck. So one playing of TR->Masq just breaks the pin.

[ftl]

No, I don't think so.... If they have more cards in their deck, then TR-masq does NOT break your pin. You pass them a copper; they pass you something. Then you pass back that something; they pass you something else. If they had more cards in their deck, they don't get to touch any of your pin cards, you still have all four of them after passing away a copper.