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Author Topic: Game logs behind Isotropic  (Read 2849 times)

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Reyk

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Game logs behind Isotropic
« on: July 12, 2011, 09:46:49 am »
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All the discussions regarding the official online version became somewhat delicate sooner or later so far. I don't want to continue the discussion why isotropic has to go down, but bring out one specific point.

It was mentioned already in these threads, but maybe it went a bit unnoticed: The Forum here and the Blog (especially Annotated game section) became a hilarious source for sharing the love for dominion (thx again Donald for this great game!), thoughts on strategy, great moments etc. This is possible because we can play on Isotropic, but - no less important - Doug makes available the game logs and rrenaud on councilroom.com offers additional features such as the new score and money per turn graphs and many more:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=260.0

Around this we have many great discussions, for example expert advices to new players (analyzing sample games). This wasn't possible (or only with much greater effort) in former real life/BSW only times when the discussions went in a more abstract way. For me personally this brought the game to new levels.

Just like to ask if public game logs and their parsing is being considered for an official online version too. Or is it too early to ask this? More specifically: Could there be a standardised interface/notation for Dominion games (such as portable game notation for chess) so that councilroom.com could continue their amazing job (if rrenaud were interested in doing so). Maybe in the process we could even replay the games in some form, not only read the logs. That would be really great and for me personally much more important than for example an AI. I realize that this is a bit more complex than for chess, considering the cards, interactions and upcoming expansions.

PS: This was a bit tough to write for me - hope I could express myself understandingly in the foreign language. I wasn't sure where to post this too, but decided the Isotropic and councilroom.com Sub Forums are too specific.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2011, 10:38:47 am by Reyk »
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DStu

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Re: Game logs behind Isotropic
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2011, 10:32:09 am »
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Or is it too early to ask this?

If you expect an answer it probably is, as it seems as Donald may not tell us anything. On the other side, we don't know if the developers read this forum and/or there is some feedback from someone who does to them, so stressing out features that are important may be a good idea.
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Kirian

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Re: Game logs behind Isotropic
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2011, 12:31:03 pm »
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More specifically: Could there be a standardised interface/notation for Dominion games (such as portable game notation for chess) so that councilroom.com could continue their amazing job (if rrenaud were interested in doing so). Maybe in the process we could even replay the games in some form, not only read the logs. That would be really great and for me personally much more important than for example an AI. I realize that this is a bit more complex than for chess, considering the cards, interactions and upcoming expansions.

Indeed, even without more expansions on the way, a simple notation in a game with powerful decks will get very complex for a standardized notation.  Some things might be easy:

12. Lab, Lab, SSE: Lab > Market, G; Lab > Festival, C; Market > Lab; Festival; Lab > GP; $14 > PG.

Easy enough to read, but each of those is a vanilla card.  Anything that requires interaction means one line per player; anything that creates weirdness means extra stuff.  We can add characters, so:

> for Draw, v for Trash, ^ for Gain, < for Discard (hey that's not so bad), and... hrm, _ for Top-Deck?  OK, so now let's parse a hand consisting of Lookout, Spy, Lab, KC, and Masquerade...

12P2. Spy, Lab, KC, Masq, Lookout: Spy > P, _ E; Lookout v E, < C, _ G; KC-Lab > GSCC, Lab, Masq; Lab > SS, Masq v C, ^ E, V E; Masq v C, ^ S, v C; $9 ^ KC.
    P3. Spy < G; Masq v C, ^ C; Masq v C, ^ C.
    P1. Spy _ E; Masq v E, ^ C; Masq v S, ^ C.

OK, actually, that's somewhat readable, though for someone not well-versed in the game, it's going to be really tough to read...

Quote
PS: This was a bit tough to write for me - hope I could express myself understandingly in the foreign language. I wasn't sure where to post this too, but decided the Isotropic and councilroom.com Sub Forums are too specific.

You did better than your average American internet user.
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rrenaud

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Re: Game logs behind Isotropic
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2011, 01:27:07 pm »
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I'd happy write a custom parser for a sane, clean standard human readable text log. 

If they were to write a custom output format for me, I'd honestly rather have the data in an easily machine parseable format, hopefully json, but I'd settle for XML, rather than a cryptic, compact format.
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Zaphod

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Re: Game logs behind Isotropic
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2011, 02:20:57 pm »
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Reyk, I think you communicated what you wanted to say very well, and I'm glad you brought up this issue.
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flymolo

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Re: Game logs behind Isotropic
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2011, 12:25:20 pm »
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I also want to ask for FULL game logs.  Knowing what cards players decided not to play is important for learning.
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