Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 [2] 3  All

Author Topic: Counting House  (Read 28666 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

greatexpectations

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1097
  • Respect: +1067
    • View Profile
Re: Counting House
« Reply #25 on: May 31, 2012, 02:43:13 pm »
+1

putting together an article is hard work, and it is made even more challenging because of the high quality of posts that have been generated in the past. i would not be so offended at any criticism though.  even forum regulars and great players like jonts26 and WanderingWinder have taken criticisms for articles they posted in the past.  that being said, i think there are a couple key problems with your article.

- the blog has a pretty nice format and average length for these sorts of posts.  try your best to stick pretty close to that formatting.  i think your post was a touch long and a little unorganized.
- you listed a bunch of cards that CH works well with or conflicts with.  i would recommend avoiding listing cards and instead listing groups of cards.  your "works well" list could be simplified to say plus buys, cheap gainers, sifters, and a reaction to bloated decks.
- you failed to make mention of a few very key cards and combos.  inn and coppersmith are both fantastic combos for the card.  golem+CH and chancellor+CH are both combos you will see tossed around alot.
- counting house is a card that has been around for a few expansions now, and there has already been some forum discussion on the card. the "What is the worst card in the game?" and "Create a kingdom that makes CH as useful as possible" threads come to my mind. consider a detailed search to look through some of the other discussions on the card.  you can find both some good ideas to discuss and some competitive game longs to borrow from.
Logged
momomoto: ...I looked at the tableau and went "Mountebank? That's for jerks."
rrenaud: Jerks win.

axlemn

  • Salvager
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 64
  • Respect: +34
    • View Profile
Re: Counting House
« Reply #26 on: May 31, 2012, 02:49:31 pm »
0

i think your post was a touch long and a little unorganized.

Gotcha. 

- - you failed to make mention of a few very key cards and combos.  inn and coppersmith are both fantastic combos for the card.  golem+CH and chancellor+CH are both combos you will see tossed around alot.

I have stated that most of these combos do not work in practice, or are usually suboptimal.  Inn is a very good addition that I missed. 
« Last Edit: May 31, 2012, 03:13:26 pm by axlemn »
Logged
Favorite cards: Wharf, Wishing Well, Cartographer, Counting House. 
Least favorite cards: Swindler, Jester, Ghost Ship, Black Market, Fortune Teller

jomini

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1060
  • Respect: +766
    • View Profile
Re: Counting House
« Reply #27 on: May 31, 2012, 05:29:43 pm »
+2

I don't believe you addressed another popular combo idea: cache/CH. make your first 5 a cache, make a CH buy after that. Cache both adds coppers and gives you cheap goldr so that even on non-CH turns you can hit 5 (early on this can mean more CH or Caches, late this is good for duchies). If you can follow your deck well, you can add cache buys to add +2 coin to a CH coming up next turn in the shuffle.

Another shot mentioned is top decking the CH. If you already have a card that will top deck the CH when you have or are about to have a bunch of copper in the discard, then you can selectively grab CH late in the shuffles to use as a one-off plat (or better). For instance, let's say I have apothecary/university/watchtower deck without trashing. Late in the shuffle I can play something like univeristy (gain CH/top deck with WT) -> WT (careful not to trigger a reshuffle) -> CH (+5 coin). Develop, watchtower, and royal seal can all make this a viable late game gambit; of course like most late game 5 coin gambits, you really have to weight the opportunity cost of just taking the duchy, but it can work.

A combination of cache, WT, and CH would be interesting. You could use the WT to top deck the cache itself and let the coppers fall into the discard for +coin this shuffle for every CH after the CH. Late in the shuffle you could top deck CHs (before the reshuffle will hit, of course). This might be viable in a colony game. I'd be interested to see how it compares to other options (like WT/Cache & trash the coppers).
Logged

Geronimoo

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1059
  • Respect: +868
    • View Profile
    • Geronimoo's Dominion Simulator
Re: Counting House
« Reply #28 on: June 28, 2012, 02:02:52 pm »
+1

Colony game with IGG and Counting House.

— Geronimoo's turn 25 —
   Geronimoo plays a Counting House.
   ... putting 24 Coppers from the discard pile into the hand.
   Geronimoo plays 24 Coppers.
   Geronimoo buys a Colony.
   (Geronimoo reshuffles.)
   (Geronimoo draws: 2 Curses, 2 Counting Houses, and a Silver.)

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201206/28/game-20120628-105759-f47373ed.html

I won because my opponent went for CH too late.
Logged

DWetzel

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 246
  • The Human Edge Case
  • Respect: +272
    • View Profile
Re: Counting House
« Reply #29 on: June 28, 2012, 04:49:57 pm »
+1

Yes... yes, he did.
Logged

GeronimoRex

  • Navigator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 78
  • Respect: +49
    • View Profile
Re: Counting House
« Reply #30 on: May 21, 2013, 11:52:09 am »
+7

I know this is reviving an old thread, but I'm new to Dominion and fascinated by some of the card interactions and strategy; a friend introduced my wife and I to the game a couple of months ago.

To start off at home, I went for the Big Box set (base, Prosperity, Alchemy) as a birthday gift to my wife a couple of weeks back.

We haven't tried any Alchemy games yet, but mixing in Prosperity cards is proving to make the game far more exciting than just the base set. Counting House, in particular, fascinated me because it is one of those cards that forces a totally unorthodox strategy to make it effective. We had it out in a couple of games and zero were purchased. So last night, with it back on the table, I determined to try it and see if I could make it effective.

Kingdom was a Province game with: (2) Cellar | (3) Chancellor, Village, Watchtower | (4) Bureaucrat, Feast, Talisman | (5) Counting House, Market, Mine

Three of us were playing. I opened Talisman, Chancellor (I think Talisman, Cellar would have been better), and proceeded to use the Talisman to grab a couple of Feasts (to turn into CH, Markets), along with plenty of Coppers and, another Cellar, a pair of Villages, another Talisman, a second CH, and five more Markets.

None of us have played much, so I don't think anyone's play was optimal. Both other players were using bureaucrat to add silvers to the deck; my wife was mining her deck up into big money; our friend was using chancellor/village for the extra coins to add golds and fast cycle through his deck.

When the greening rush started, I was quickly down 18 points to each of the other players. Held off on greening to pick up extra markets, and finally hit a half decent turn and grabbed two provinces... had a couple of dud turns (did grab one duchy) while I watched more greens get picked off. Got to me with one province on the table and half the duchies remaining... Used village/village/chancellor/counting house/cellar to move my deck to discard, pull 22 coppers into my hand then discard 16 to draw my entire deck, where I could then village/markets/chancellor/counting house to pull all the coppers back in. Markets+other actions+22 coppers hit 34 coins across seven buys... went 5 duchies and a province to finish out the game. Was a fantastic feeling to have the CH hit.

I'd never imagined a turn that drew 22 cards, discarded 16 cards, drew 16 cards, drew 16 cards... I've seen engines cycle through much smaller hands before, but nothing that could fully turn through--AND DRAW--a deck of 46 cards into hand at once.

My wife and I ended up tying at 39 points each, but I was 2nd player, she was 3rd, so she took the victory. Still, it made me think that, played a little better, or with a slightly more accommodating kingdom (Worker's Village instead of Mkt/Village; Colony board instead of Province board), CH would have the potential to be a dominant card.

Regardless, trying to play a CH strategy was probably the most fun I've had with a game of Dominion. It's the outlier strategies and crazy ways cards work together that are making this such an addicting game. Of course, I'm not telling you anything you don't already know, but just glad to join you. Thanks.
Logged

Davio

  • 2012 Dutch Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4787
  • Respect: +3412
    • View Profile
Re: Counting House
« Reply #31 on: May 21, 2013, 01:42:58 pm »
0

Registering to make a post about Counting House, you must be a fan.

I think people's main grievance with CH is its unreliability. Sometimes you draw 2 Coppers with it or even 3 and you're like meh not really worth the 5 I paid for it. And sometimes you can pull 7 of them and have a €16 hand with one buy.

I would have loved to see +Buy on CH so you can use it optimally the turns it does pull a lot of Coppers and even use it to buy more Coppers. It would smoke Mountebank even more.
Logged

BSG: Cagprezimal Adama
Mage Knight: Arythea

KingZog3

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3163
  • Respect: +1380
    • View Profile
Re: Counting House
« Reply #32 on: May 21, 2013, 02:29:40 pm »
0

Adding a +buy to Counting House could be interesting. I can't see it making that much better, but it would help make it parts of more boards as opposed to essentially never being bought.
Logged

jomini

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1060
  • Respect: +766
    • View Profile
Re: Counting House
« Reply #33 on: May 21, 2013, 08:17:47 pm »
0

Adding a +buy to Counting House could be interesting. I can't see it making that much better, but it would help make it parts of more boards as opposed to essentially never being bought.
+buy would make Chou vastly better. Chou needs bloat to do anything crazy, however if you do anything crazy then you really can't play more than one terminal at time, and often not even a non-terminal and a Chou. This hard caps Chou at a Province or colony a turn. Likewise, getting enough coppers to quickly hit 16 coin is pretty hard without a +buy. Worse, if you don't win the province split you have almost zero chance of coming back as you can't buy double duchy. With a +buy you could add 2 coin to next Chou even with a busted early Chou draw. With 3 Chou plays in a shuffle you may well hit a bust first (though you can add two coin to the next Chou), a province next (adding another coin to the next), and two provinces on the last one.
Logged

dondon151

  • 2012 US Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2522
  • Respect: +1856
    • View Profile
Re: Counting House
« Reply #34 on: May 21, 2013, 09:13:14 pm »
0

Heck, you could even use Counting House as a better Ruined Market in that case.
Logged

KingZog3

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3163
  • Respect: +1380
    • View Profile
Re: Counting House
« Reply #35 on: May 21, 2013, 11:04:29 pm »
0

I must admit that I was mistaken, and you guys are right. Still, I still don't see it being superb. It'll still have inconsistencies, and the bloated deck makes for few plays of Counting House. Those problems don't go away.
Logged

GeronimoRex

  • Navigator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 78
  • Respect: +49
    • View Profile
Re: Counting House
« Reply #36 on: May 21, 2013, 11:54:03 pm »
+3

Yeah, I'm hooked.

And I expect that the outlier cards are generally going to be the ones I enjoy most, because they make the game fun -- not only for me, but (and more importantly) for the people I'm playing with.

I don't know if others of you are in this boat, but the people I'm most likely to play Dominion with (i.e. my wife and a few other friends) aren't people who are highly competitive, nor are they people who quickly adapt to the new strategies required by each kingdom. I've quickly learned that I am likely to win if I try to win... but I've also learned that taking the most aggressive, highest-odds strategy in a kingdom, I'm likely to win--and then regret winning. Because it means I'm less likely to have willing Dominion players the next go around.

I've got friends and family in other states who are much more strategic/competitive, and with them, I think no-holds-barred Dominion would be optimal, but with the immediate group I'm likely to play with, I'm better off looking for slower, more circuitous routes to success, with lower odds at victory. In other words, I have to consciously make the decision to play for fun rather than play to win. So the harder the outlier strategy is to execute (and the less it involves strong attack cards), the more I'm likely to try it... makes for some fun games.

Anyone else in the boat of trying crazy stuff for fun to lower their win-ratio to keep their friends/family interested in the game?
Logged

Powerman

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 766
  • Respect: +605
    • View Profile
Re: Counting House
« Reply #37 on: May 22, 2013, 12:01:48 am »
0

Yeah, I'm hooked.

And I expect that the outlier cards are generally going to be the ones I enjoy most, because they make the game fun -- not only for me, but (and more importantly) for the people I'm playing with.

I don't know if others of you are in this boat, but the people I'm most likely to play Dominion with (i.e. my wife and a few other friends) aren't people who are highly competitive, nor are they people who quickly adapt to the new strategies required by each kingdom. I've quickly learned that I am likely to win if I try to win... but I've also learned that taking the most aggressive, highest-odds strategy in a kingdom, I'm likely to win--and then regret winning. Because it means I'm less likely to have willing Dominion players the next go around.

I've got friends and family in other states who are much more strategic/competitive, and with them, I think no-holds-barred Dominion would be optimal, but with the immediate group I'm likely to play with, I'm better off looking for slower, more circuitous routes to success, with lower odds at victory. In other words, I have to consciously make the decision to play for fun rather than play to win. So the harder the outlier strategy is to execute (and the less it involves strong attack cards), the more I'm likely to try it... makes for some fun games.

Anyone else in the boat of trying crazy stuff for fun to lower their win-ratio to keep their friends/family interested in the game?

I guess I don't see how to play Dominion both funly and at less that your highest ability.  Sure, if a card like Witch isn't fun for your group, you can simply not have it in the kingdom... but including it in the kingdom, but then not buying it because you're the "better player" doesn't help anything.  I mean sure, you can play a board trying to go for Philosopher's Stone to counter Mountebank and maybe lose... but that still isn't suboptimal play of the game, that's just picking a strategy that has a less chance of winning.  So I guess, if you're saying you find picking poor strategies fun, I can agree that it can be, but playing a strategy poorly I think is bad.  My two cents.
Logged
A man on a mission.

heatthespurs

  • Spy
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 82
  • Respect: +61
    • View Profile
Re: Counting House
« Reply #38 on: May 22, 2013, 12:40:55 am »
0

Yeah, I'm hooked.

And I expect that the outlier cards are generally going to be the ones I enjoy most, because they make the game fun -- not only for me, but (and more importantly) for the people I'm playing with.

I don't know if others of you are in this boat, but the people I'm most likely to play Dominion with (i.e. my wife and a few other friends) aren't people who are highly competitive, nor are they people who quickly adapt to the new strategies required by each kingdom. I've quickly learned that I am likely to win if I try to win... but I've also learned that taking the most aggressive, highest-odds strategy in a kingdom, I'm likely to win--and then regret winning. Because it means I'm less likely to have willing Dominion players the next go around.

I've got friends and family in other states who are much more strategic/competitive, and with them, I think no-holds-barred Dominion would be optimal, but with the immediate group I'm likely to play with, I'm better off looking for slower, more circuitous routes to success, with lower odds at victory. In other words, I have to consciously make the decision to play for fun rather than play to win. So the harder the outlier strategy is to execute (and the less it involves strong attack cards), the more I'm likely to try it... makes for some fun games.

Anyone else in the boat of trying crazy stuff for fun to lower their win-ratio to keep their friends/family interested in the game?

Yes. The "best" strategy is not always the "fun" strategy (assuming we know what is the "best", and everyone have a different definition of "fun"). In Iso/Goko, we care about the ranking so we almost always go for the best strategy from our view, even though it might result to some boring Jack or HP games (winning is "fun" afterall). But when playing casually with friends, often the fun of beating them is not as much as trying out some exotic combo (that may or may not work out)
Logged

ConMan

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1400
  • Respect: +1705
    • View Profile
Re: Counting House
« Reply #39 on: May 22, 2013, 06:54:00 pm »
0

I usually play for fun - rather than trying to work out the absolute best strategy on the board, I'd rather look for the most interesting combination of cards and see how hard it is to make it work (King's Court-Scheme-Golem-Counting House for a guaranteed Province every turn but requiring most of the game to set up? I'm in!)
Logged

Fuu

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 114
  • Shuffle iT Username: Fuu
  • Respect: +87
    • View Profile
Re: Counting House
« Reply #40 on: May 22, 2013, 08:39:29 pm »
0

Anyone else in the boat of trying crazy stuff for fun to lower their win-ratio to keep their friends/family interested in the game?

o/

For me, Dominion is all about circuitous paths to occasional victory.

The least enjoyable games for me are those where I take the obvious route and win easily. I am much more interested in trying out contrived strategies and trying to make uncommonly purchased cards shine. It is the enjoyment of discovering something new, versus repeating something learned to be effective. I usually play with new players at board game parties or relatives/significant other who are non-competitive. I am sure that my circle of Dominion players would be much narrower if I only played to win.
Logged

lespeutere

  • 2012 German Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 488
  • Respect: +390
    • View Profile
Re: Counting House
« Reply #41 on: May 23, 2013, 04:09:25 am »
+2

I've got friends and family in other states who are much more strategic/competitive, and with them, I think no-holds-barred Dominion would be optimal, but with the immediate group I'm likely to play with, I'm better off looking for slower, more circuitous routes to success, with lower odds at victory. In other words, I have to consciously make the decision to play for fun rather than play to win. So the harder the outlier strategy is to execute (and the less it involves strong attack cards), the more I'm likely to try it... makes for some fun games.

You have patient family. The even bigger problem for me is that my friends would not want to wait 3 min for my engine turns while they chose the BM/draw strategy requiring playing X and counting treasures only (if having X in hand at all).
Logged

Davio

  • 2012 Dutch Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4787
  • Respect: +3412
    • View Profile
Re: Counting House
« Reply #42 on: May 23, 2013, 08:47:09 am »
0

Getting back to Counting House, to me it feels a bit similar to Harvest with bigger deviations. Harvest might give close to 3 on average and anything between 1 and 4. Counting House could average the same with anything between 0 and 7 if you're not actively building a deck for it.

But Counting House can't be Throne Roomed making it even less viable.
Logged

BSG: Cagprezimal Adama
Mage Knight: Arythea

HiveMindEmulator

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2222
  • Respect: +2118
    • View Profile
Re: Counting House
« Reply #43 on: May 24, 2013, 12:39:07 am »
0

Adding a +buy to Counting House could be interesting. I can't see it making that much better, but it would help make it parts of more boards as opposed to essentially never being bought.
I think that would make it way too strong. The +buy does too many good things for Counting House. It lets you get more Coppers; it lets you use the excess money; and it can allow you get a lot of Counting Houses. Seems like it will stack far too well. It's on the weak side now, but I don't think a +buy is a good fix. That pushes it too far the other way. It's fine how it is.

Getting back to Counting House, to me it feels a bit similar to Harvest with bigger deviations. Harvest might give close to 3 on average and anything between 1 and 4. Counting House could average the same with anything between 0 and 7 if you're not actively building a deck for it.

But Counting House can't be Throne Roomed making it even less viable.
The big problem with Counting House is that the deviations are generally bad. When you get $5+, you usually can't use it all, so it still ends up being more like $0-4 than $0-7.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2013, 12:41:44 am by HiveMindEmulator »
Logged

ftl

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2056
  • Shuffle iT Username: ftl
  • Respect: +1345
    • View Profile
Re: Counting House
« Reply #44 on: May 24, 2013, 01:13:44 am »
+1

Just a friendly reminder that's bad cards add to Dominion as well! You never get the cool experience of winning in a clever way with a card which is usually terrible unless there are some cards which are usually terrible.
Logged

eHalcyon

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8689
  • Respect: +9187
    • View Profile
Re: Counting House
« Reply #45 on: May 24, 2013, 03:30:43 am »
0

Adding a +buy to Counting House could be interesting. I can't see it making that much better, but it would help make it parts of more boards as opposed to essentially never being bought.
I think that would make it way too strong. The +buy does too many good things for Counting House. It lets you get more Coppers; it lets you use the excess money; and it can allow you get a lot of Counting Houses. Seems like it will stack far too well. It's on the weak side now, but I don't think a +buy is a good fix. That pushes it too far the other way. It's fine how it is.


What if Counting House had a clause: "While this is in play, you may not buy Copper." ?  Now you can still make use of all your money, but you still need a plan to get your extra Coppers.
Logged

Davio

  • 2012 Dutch Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4787
  • Respect: +3412
    • View Profile
Re: Counting House
« Reply #46 on: May 24, 2013, 03:57:28 am »
+1

Adding a +buy to Counting House could be interesting. I can't see it making that much better, but it would help make it parts of more boards as opposed to essentially never being bought.
I think that would make it way too strong. The +buy does too many good things for Counting House. It lets you get more Coppers; it lets you use the excess money; and it can allow you get a lot of Counting Houses. Seems like it will stack far too well. It's on the weak side now, but I don't think a +buy is a good fix. That pushes it too far the other way. It's fine how it is.


What if Counting House had a clause: "While this is in play, you may not buy Copper." ?  Now you can still make use of all your money, but you still need a plan to get your extra Coppers.
Counting House has a bit of the "Pilosopher's Stone problem" that way.

As you increase your deck size by bloating it with Coppers, you will see your Counting Houses less often. And even if you buy lots of them, you can only effectively play one per turn to get all the Coppers. You could play the rest for buys though.

Counting House's main problem is that you either undershoot your target, which is bad, or overshoot by a lot and that seems like a waste. We're still talking about a $5 here, a highly competitive price point.

We can't judge precisely how adding a +Buy would effect the number of boards on which Counting House is an interesting choice, but I think it's good to increase this number. We already have 5's that are way way dominant over other 5's so closing this gap seems like a worthwhile effort.
Logged

BSG: Cagprezimal Adama
Mage Knight: Arythea

Synthesizer

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 100
  • Respect: +31
    • View Profile
Re: Counting House
« Reply #47 on: May 24, 2013, 05:37:14 am »
0

How about adding this:
You may discard 3 coppers. If you do, +action.

I think that would increase the power of the Counting House tremendously, while keeping it interesting. The extra action will seriously increase combo-ability; not just Coppersmith, but also e.g. cellar to find your village (scoop up all the coppers, discard 3 to be able to play the cellar, dump the rest of the coppers, hey, there's my village/smithy combo, my engine just fired!),  you can play a terminal +buy card, etc. There is no self synergy, because you could of course play another CH to scoop those 3 coppers back up, but that has no net effect.

I'm not sure whether 3 is the right number to discard, it might need to be higher or lower to find the balance between "irrelevant" and "totally overpowered".

Also, I really think adding any kind of +buy (even with discarding of a number of coppers) will make the card too powerful; or at least boring. (i.e. I would expect it to be: "buy province, counting house or copper, whichever you can afford with each buy. Standard BM rules for buying Duchies apply." Perhaps a cap on the number of counting houses.)
Logged

eHalcyon

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8689
  • Respect: +9187
    • View Profile
Re: Counting House
« Reply #48 on: May 24, 2013, 11:12:31 am »
0

To be clear, my suggestion was to give it the +Buy but disallow its use to buy Copper. That way you eliminate the instances where it overshoots without making it easy to bloat on copper.
Logged

HiveMindEmulator

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2222
  • Respect: +2118
    • View Profile
Re: Counting House
« Reply #49 on: May 24, 2013, 11:59:08 am »
0

Counting House has a bit of the "Pilosopher's Stone problem" that way.

As you increase your deck size by bloating it with Coppers, you will see your Counting Houses less often. And even if you buy lots of them, you can only effectively play one per turn to get all the Coppers. You could play the rest for buys though.
The "Philosopher's Stone problem" has to do with the Potion cost. Since you can only buy them when you draw a Potion, you can only get N every time through your deck, where N is the number of Potions you have. If the large deck causes you to cycle slowly, you just can't get enough P.Stones to have it be worth it. It would be a lot stronger if it had a non-potion cost (like $7 or something). At only $5, it shouldn't be hard to buy 3-4 Counting Houses in one time through the deck once you already have a couple. And then you will usually have one to play every turn, even in a bloated deck.
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3  All
 

Page created in 0.107 seconds with 20 queries.