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Author Topic: Behold the POWER of Scout!  (Read 13619 times)

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chwhite

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Behold the POWER of Scout!
« on: May 28, 2012, 02:07:03 pm »
+2

So, a few days ago I played this Intrigue-heavy game with rickyross:

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201205/24/game-20120524-224423-7c83c7ed.html

Cards in supply: Forge, Great Hall, Horse Traders, Ironworks, Laboratory, Lookout, Mining Village, Scout, Trading Post, and Worker's Village

You may notice that Ironworks AND Great Hall AND Scout are all in there.  There's some obvious synergy there: Ironworks all the Great Halls, use Scout to draw them in hand and increase hand size in a pointsful manner.  In fact, it's the three-card combo that Scout was specifically designed to function with; it's Scout's entire raison d'etre.  And my opponent goes for it, grabbing seven of the Great Halls (I was only able to Ironworks one of 'em before they disappeared), and being able to draw his entire deck more or less for the last few turns of the game.

And yet my Trading Post/- opening, going money-heavy but sprinkling in a couple Labs and +Buy sources, still won big.  I mean, sure 5/2 on a Trading Post board is some elite luck, but if Scout can't close the gap on a board which at first blush looks explicitly designed to make it useful, then what hope does it have?
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O

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Re: Behold the POWER of Scout!
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2012, 03:10:06 pm »
0

He had several highly questionable moves beyond the basic IW/Scout/GH

-> Horse trades with no dead cards, and a mining village to support that HT buy (Protip:silver)
-> Lookout, then forge (really pick Forge probably)

Though first reshuffle trading post probably crushes IW/GH/Scout anyways.
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DG

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Re: Behold the POWER of Scout!
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2012, 04:30:42 pm »
+1

You can use a scout in that kingdom but not like that. This sort of thing works  http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201205/28/game-20120528-132920-e2621a98.html.
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sjelkjd

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Re: Behold the POWER of Scout!
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2012, 04:50:30 pm »
0

Scout, Ironworks, Great Hall is Village Idiot v2.0
You do a lot of stuff, but at the end of the day, you don't increase your buying power.  Especially since you only have coppers in your deck early on, even if scout grabs 2 great halls, best case is you got the same effect as silver.  You have to grab 3, or have better cards in your deck, for it to be worth it.

You might be able to make something work with crossroads or island.  At least island is semi-useful, comapred to great hall.
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greatexpectations

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Re: Behold the POWER of Scout!
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2012, 04:53:11 pm »
0

oy, this is a bit of a sore subject here. i had a level 12 opponent use the IW/GH/scout combo to pull 7 provinces in 17 turns against me yesterday.  loan and crossroads did help of course. game log here.
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clb

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Re: Behold the POWER of Scout!
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2012, 04:57:29 pm »
0

oy, this is a bit of a sore subject here. i had a level 12 opponent use the IW/GH/scout combo to pull 7 provinces in 17 turns against me yesterday.  loan and crossroads did help of course. game log here.

I think your link leads to jonts26's intro, not to a game log.
Must've been something wrong on my end.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2012, 05:18:24 pm by clb »
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Robz888

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Re: Behold the POWER of Scout!
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2012, 05:06:42 pm »
0

oy, this is a bit of a sore subject here. i had a level 12 opponent use the IW/GH/scout combo to pull 7 provinces in 17 turns against me yesterday.  loan and crossroads did help of course. game log here.

The star in that game is Crossroads, not Scout. And that's Scouts problem--any engine where it really shines is going to include things like Crossroads/Ironworks/Great Hall/Harem/Nobles. And the more of those things you include, the better the engine is, the less important Scout is to that actual engine. Crossroads does much more of the heavy lifting.

I feel like Scout is easily among the worst cards in the game for that reason: either a Scout-inclusive engine will be too weak to win, or it will be strong enough to succeed without Scout at all.
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blueblimp

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Re: Behold the POWER of Scout!
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2012, 05:08:14 pm »
0

The big obstacle to Scout/GH is that the GH density in your deck needs to be very high. If only half your cards are green, your Scout is basically just an unreliable lab. Nothing worth basing a gameplan on, that's for sure.

Problem is, in 2-player with only 8 great halls available, it's tough to get even that density, since Scouts aren't victory cards themselves. You'll want trashing for starters, and not a card (like Trading Post) that puts non-green into your deck. Then there's the problem of getting enough money to buy stuff when you're avoiding treasure.

For these reasons, I found in the simulation challenge that Ironworks/Chapel into GH/Scout/Harem works well. Harem solves the problem of getting buying power while keeping your Scouts strong. And with those cards alone, it's hard to imagine a strong strategy that avoids Scout.
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Young Nick

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Re: Behold the POWER of Scout!
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2012, 09:41:02 pm »
0

I've always been of the belief that Scout pretty much sucks. Having said that, might it be that it is better utilized as a mid- to late-game card? I'm thinking about when you expect to play it no more than three or four times. It allows you to green a bit harder earlier. If you have exactly $4 or there are no Duchies to buy, it very well might be able to suck in enough green that you will be thanking yourself a hand later.

Then again, it doesn't seem to do too well when compared against Silver. However, because of how it sucks up cards, it might allow you to reach for that last Duchy or Province that you need to put you over the top. Admittedly, it is a pretty rare situation that there are no other cards for ≤$4 that are better than it. It is just that Scout is not to be used as the centerpiece of an engine. It's just not going to succeed in such a climate.
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chwhite

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Re: Behold the POWER of Scout!
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2012, 09:44:01 pm »
0

I've found that I'm most happy to pick up Scout in games with Scrying Pool and/or Vineyard, where even there it provides little added value, but any non-terminal action that can grease the engine is welcome.  But even so, the fact that I've somehow bought Scout in a full 25 percent of my matches is probably the most mind-boggling statistic I can find on Councilroom.  It's made a difference in so few games, and it's not even like I used to like it or anything, I've always known it was garbage.  I'd probably call it the fourth-worst card in the game, and that might be generous.

...

I do suspect that it's also possible to play Ironworks/Scout/GH somewhat better than this game showed; if my opponent had spent just a little more energy on keeping his buying power up early, the game would have been closer.
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RisingJaguar

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Re: Behold the POWER of Scout!
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2012, 10:32:56 pm »
+3

I've found that I'm most happy to pick up Scout in games with Scrying Pool and/or Vineyard, where even there it provides little added value, but any non-terminal action that can grease the engine is welcome.  But even so, the fact that I've somehow bought Scout in a full 25 percent of my matches is probably the most mind-boggling statistic I can find on Councilroom.  It's made a difference in so few games, and it's not even like I used to like it or anything, I've always known it was garbage.  I'd probably call it the fourth-worst card in the game, and that might be generous.

...

I do suspect that it's also possible to play Ironworks/Scout/GH somewhat better than this game showed; if my opponent had spent just a little more energy on keeping his buying power up early, the game would have been closer.
My scout gain % is... wait for it... 60%

That's with a recent change to me purchasing near 10% as of late.  Which leads me to say this title got me really excited, only to have my dreams ripped out. 
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Obi Wan Bonogi

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Re: Behold the POWER of Scout!
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2012, 12:03:53 am »
+2

My scout gain % is... wait for it... 60%

This is the only statplug that I have felt compelled to look up and verify.  Golf clap.
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PitzerMike

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Re: Behold the POWER of Scout!
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2012, 03:43:30 am »
0

How would you guys like Scout if itself were a 0 VP or 1 VP victory card in addition to its action?
You could chain them together nicely and on some boards i guess it would be worthwhile to build something around that?
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Titandrake

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Re: Behold the POWER of Scout!
« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2012, 04:01:19 am »
0

From this thread I'm getting the impression that Scout is not bad in an engine. Reordering + removing junk from next 4 cards on a non-terminal is a decent effect. It's just that the opportunity cost over an engine component is far too much to justify getting it. If you got Swindled into getting one, it wouldn't be horrible.

Maybe the real problem with Scout is that its effect on the game is one of the least noticeable in the game, even less noticeable than Chancellor's and Cartographer's. How do you judge "remove junk from next hand, but uses up 1 card this turn"? I don't know...
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ftl

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Re: Behold the POWER of Scout!
« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2012, 04:22:21 am »
0

Well, you'd judge it pretty terrible, not really worth getting. All of the examples where Scout isn't bad end up being examples where what Scout is drawing isn't junk, it's card draw or money or what have  you.
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bozzball

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Re: Behold the POWER of Scout!
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2012, 04:54:09 am »
0

Can it be usefully used to draw tunnels for discarding? I guess quite tricky to engender, because it is a terminal action, so you'd also need a village-type and then a discarder and if you can reliably have those in your hand AND reliably have tunnels in your upcoming cards, then you have a fairly unusual hand.
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bozzball

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Re: Behold the POWER of Scout!
« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2012, 04:55:28 am »
0

Actually, it might not be as terminal as I had previously thought.
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michaeljb

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Re: Behold the POWER of Scout!
« Reply #17 on: May 29, 2012, 12:14:07 pm »
0

Yeah if it were terminal I think it would be no contest for the worst card.
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Robz888

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Re: Behold the POWER of Scout!
« Reply #18 on: May 29, 2012, 12:49:34 pm »
0

Scout is almost never going to do more for you than a Silver. Scrying Pool is one edge case. Ironworks is another: perhaps you need to gain an Action because you want to play the Monument in your hand, or something. So you can't gain Silver, and you don't want any more of the cards that made you go Ironworks in the first place, or they are all out (maybe Islands), so you pick up a Scout.

Also, Scout is overpriced by probably $2.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Behold the POWER of Scout!
« Reply #19 on: May 29, 2012, 12:57:36 pm »
0

I think the vast majority of the times you want scout, most any non-terminal is just as good. And pearl diver usually better. Because when you want scout, it's usually for scrying pool (okay, the re-order helps you a bit here, but mostly it's another non-terminal), vineyards, fairgrounds, HoP, or... well, that's about it, no?
You can make a mean draw engine out of apothecary/scout/wishing well. But you can make a pretty mean draw engine out of apothecary/wishing will. And the scout version, what are you doing with all those cards? Maybe hoard? But even here, it doesn't do a lot for you.
So I think now that scout is the worst card in the game, relative to its cost for sure, maybe even if it cost $2. Eh, maybe not then. Even so, you want it sometimes, but... well, sorta.

Davio

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Re: Behold the POWER of Scout!
« Reply #20 on: May 29, 2012, 01:09:32 pm »
+1

Scout's problem is that it needs 3 or 4 other specific kingdom cards to be even considered, ouch!

Sure, I've bought it on the occasional "Damn, I have $4 and I don't want any more Silver" turn, but those are rare indeed. I've tried it with Nobles and even Harem, but the effect is so small it's negligable (opportunity cost).
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Behold the POWER of Scout!
« Reply #21 on: May 29, 2012, 01:14:38 pm »
0

Scout's problem is that it needs 3 or 4 other specific kingdom cards to be even considered, ouch!

Sure, I've bought it on the occasional "Damn, I have $4 and I don't want any more Silver" turn, but those are rare indeed. I've tried it with Nobles and even Harem, but the effect is so small it's negligable (opportunity cost).
When do you have $4, not want any more silver, AND not have any other engine components that cost 4 or less that you still want? Because 'I don't want more silver' == I'm playing an engine.

chwhite

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Re: Behold the POWER of Scout!
« Reply #22 on: May 29, 2012, 01:21:19 pm »
+1

Scout's problem is that it needs 3 or 4 other specific kingdom cards to be even considered, ouch!

Sure, I've bought it on the occasional "Damn, I have $4 and I don't want any more Silver" turn, but those are rare indeed. I've tried it with Nobles and even Harem, but the effect is so small it's negligable (opportunity cost).
When do you have $4, not want any more silver, AND not have any other engine components that cost 4 or less that you still want? Because 'I don't want more silver' == I'm playing an engine.

Scrying Pool games.  But we knew that already.

I suspect that adding +1 Card is probably just a bit too much of a buff, but maybe not.  If you don't want to add the +1 Card, maybe have it a) look at 5 cards instead of 4, b) AND take Curse into your hand too, c) AND cost $3 and then you'd have a card that might occasionally be worth buying.

Actually, I think the right way to do fixed Scout is to have it look at 5 cards, have it take Curses and give it +1 Card, but then make it cost $5.  It would end up being comparable to Apothecary then.  Man, that's a lot of work for one card.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Behold the POWER of Scout!
« Reply #23 on: May 29, 2012, 01:23:55 pm »
0

Scout's problem is that it needs 3 or 4 other specific kingdom cards to be even considered, ouch!

Sure, I've bought it on the occasional "Damn, I have $4 and I don't want any more Silver" turn, but those are rare indeed. I've tried it with Nobles and even Harem, but the effect is so small it's negligable (opportunity cost).
When do you have $4, not want any more silver, AND not have any other engine components that cost 4 or less that you still want? Because 'I don't want more silver' == I'm playing an engine.

Scrying Pool games.  But we knew that already.

I suspect that adding +1 Card is probably just a bit too much of a buff, but maybe not.  If you don't want to add the +1 Card, maybe have it a) look at 5 cards instead of 4, b) AND take Curse into your hand too, c) AND cost $3 and then you'd have a card that might occasionally be worth buying.

Actually, I think the right way to do fixed Scout is to have it look at 5 cards, have it take Curses and give it +1 Card, but then make it cost $5.  It would end up being comparable to Apothecary then.  Man, that's a lot of work for one card.
A lot of words for one card too. Re: scrying pool - don't you consider those engines?

chwhite

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Re: Behold the POWER of Scout!
« Reply #24 on: May 29, 2012, 01:26:36 pm »
+1

Scout's problem is that it needs 3 or 4 other specific kingdom cards to be even considered, ouch!

Sure, I've bought it on the occasional "Damn, I have $4 and I don't want any more Silver" turn, but those are rare indeed. I've tried it with Nobles and even Harem, but the effect is so small it's negligable (opportunity cost).
When do you have $4, not want any more silver, AND not have any other engine components that cost 4 or less that you still want? Because 'I don't want more silver' == I'm playing an engine.

Scrying Pool games.  But we knew that already.

I suspect that adding +1 Card is probably just a bit too much of a buff, but maybe not.  If you don't want to add the +1 Card, maybe have it a) look at 5 cards instead of 4, b) AND take Curse into your hand too, c) AND cost $3 and then you'd have a card that might occasionally be worth buying.

Actually, I think the right way to do fixed Scout is to have it look at 5 cards, have it take Curses and give it +1 Card, but then make it cost $5.  It would end up being comparable to Apothecary then.  Man, that's a lot of work for one card.
A lot of words for one card too. Re: scrying pool - don't you consider those engines?

Yeah, I'm just saying that Scrying Pool engines are a case where maybe you don't have components which are $4 or less, if everything you want is, say, $5 or $2P.
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