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[Star Dogg]

I just joined today because I'd like to get another perspective. I've been playing Dominion since the game was first released (my ex was a major board game fanatic) and now I use isotropic to play against my GF so our hands don't hurt from the shuffling. In short, I'm no expert but I've played a lot of games. I know what's possible or not.

I know that sometimes you can get really lucky in your opening hands, and sometimes you can get a killer strategy going. However, over the last month me and my GF have both noticed things that uh, just should not happen. I had the final straw the other day when half the cards were gone on what was someone's second or third turn.

I'm a casual player, for fun. I'm happy when my ranking gets above a 3 because I play half asleep at night most of the time. But what fun is it when other people are cheating? I'm not talking about using simulators (REALLY obvious by the way when someone is using one to play) which is also not very fun. We've been noticing complete, outright impossibilities. Unfortunately my browser doesn't like to show the game history past the last two turns because I would love to get screen shots.

Has anyone else noticed this going on? And is there something I can do to see the rest of the game's history in case this happens again? Thnx.

[Galzria]

There's nothing that I've heard of, however, the next time it happens, instead of returning to the lobby, tell it to open up the game log, and then post the link here, and we can certainly look it over. Maybe somebody else has heard of oddities however.

[Star Dogg]

Ah, so that's how you do it. Opening up the game log. Can you tell I'm not a big gamer I just get addicted to random ones.

I saw another post where someone had posted a game log of someone buying platinums on the first two turns which is the only hard proof I've seen. The next time this happens I will definitely take a screen shot. When I say half the cards were gone by the 3rd turn, I mean the other player literally had a few of most of the cards, including golds. Probably at least 10 total that would have been impossible to buy under any circumstances in your first two turns.

[O]

Ah, so that's how you do it. Opening up the game log. Can you tell I'm not a big gamer I just get addicted to random ones.

I saw another post where someone had posted a game log of someone buying platinums on the first two turns which is the only hard proof I've seen. The next time this happens I will definitely take a screen shot. When I say half the cards were gone by the 3rd turn, I mean the other player literally had a few of most of the cards, including golds. Probably at least 10 total that would have been impossible to buy under any circumstances in your first two turns.

If it really is the 2nd or 3rd turn, then yes, some bug is being exploited there. There was a post awhile ago by Theory of something like this happening between him and some friends, but I'm too lazy to try and find the post.  It'd be awesome if the next time this happens you could catch a game log of this.

[Galzria]

Also, could these games be recorded on councilroom.com?

[eHalcyon]

Ah, so that's how you do it. Opening up the game log. Can you tell I'm not a big gamer I just get addicted to random ones.

I saw another post where someone had posted a game log of someone buying platinums on the first two turns which is the only hard proof I've seen. The next time this happens I will definitely take a screen shot. When I say half the cards were gone by the 3rd turn, I mean the other player literally had a few of most of the cards, including golds. Probably at least 10 total that would have been impossible to buy under any circumstances in your first two turns.

Re: opening double Platinum -- IIRC, the bug was that the server didn't actually check that you had enough money for a given purchase.  Instead, it just limited what you could buy through the UI.  That meant that you could send a message to the server directly, circumventing the UI, and buy anything you wanted.  But I believe that bug was fixed.  Have you been seeing those issues recently?

[jonts26]

Here's a list of all your recent games. You could look through them and find the ones you are referring to?



http://councilroom.com/search_result?p1_name=Star%20Dogg

[Star Dogg]

I will now that I know how to see it. I've been kind of suspicious of stuff like this in games before, and so has my GF, but like I said we really just play for fun. This was so blatant there was no mistaking the impossibility.

So likely these people have poked around and found a bug? Not to say I haven't done that in a facebook game before, but that was to get more stupid free stuff for my little pet's dollhouse and it wasn't to cheat out another person. It's just not fun. I like getting my butt kicked by people with good strategies so I learn something, not to be someone's toy in getting to a higher ranking. I don't get that. It just takes the fun and challenge out of the whole thing.

The platinum game must be notorius, I really don't know how old that was but I do think it was linked on council room or something. The things I noticed have been very recent, starting this past month I'd say, and the particular game I'm talking about happened two nights ago I think.

[Star Dogg]

Jonts, that's a great link that I will save. I tried to start looking through it but it will literally give me a seizure if I keep trying, I'm one of those people that can't look at patterns or go to raves I honestly don't remember the players name even. Does that put the newest games at the top or the bottom? If it happens again that way I can look without having to scroll around and search.

[Galzria]

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120526-044030-09870dc9.html

This was yesterday, though likely not the one you remember. Here your opponent used Talisman to stack Treasure Maps, pairing them up for 8 Gold in the first 11 turns. Still lucky without trashing, but certainly not "half by turn 2 or 3", so I don't think this is the one you are referring to.

[Galzria]

Jonts, that's a great link that I will save. I tried to start looking through it but it will literally give me a seizure if I keep trying, I'm one of those people that can't look at patterns or go to raves I honestly don't remember the players name even. Does that put the newest games at the top or the bottom? If it happens again that way I can look without having to scroll around and search.

Newest to oldest, with the date in the url of each game.

[Star Dogg]

I remember getting reamed with the treasure maps, not the one I'm going to have to sign off for a while now because that actually got me started on auras. I appreciate the links and will report back if this happens again.

[ftl]

If you remember some of  the cards that were in those games, you can search for them by card here http://councilroom.com/search_query

[ftl]

I'm not talking about using simulators (REALLY obvious by the way when someone is using one to play) which is also not very fun.

BTW, I'm curious, what do you mean, playing using simulators?

I have no idea what it would be for someone to be "obviously playing with a simulator"; the current iteration of simulators don't tell you what cards to play or what to buy in a given game, I thought...  Just curious, I'm not sure what you meant there.

[olneyce]

I am extremely doubtful that there is extensive cheating going on, that has only been noticed by the two of you.  I'm not sure what IS happening, but it just seems wildly improbable that you'd have enough of these games to frustrate you, when literally not a single one of the hundreds of thousands played by the regular posters here have had the same thing happen.

Unless there is something specific going on with your account somehow?  I don't really understand programming enough to even know if that would be possible but that's all I can come up with.

If you could find a game log, it would really help the diagnosis. 

[popsofctown]

Re: opening double Platinum -- IIRC, the bug was that the server didn't actually check that you had enough money for a given purchase.  Instead, it just limited what you could buy through the UI.  That meant that you could send a message to the server directly, circumventing the UI, and buy anything you wanted. 

Bug or feature?  I wish people could be trusted with that :/.  And it would let you override a rules error in a pinch if people were actually honest and good human beings deep down inside.

[ftl]

Bug. DougZ commented on it a little ways back, I think he said he fixed it but I don't remember.

[rspeer]

Yeah, I'm going to believe DougZ that the bug was fixed, and I'm not going to believe Star Dogg whose post fundamentally makes no sense and isn't backed up by his game logs.

I'm curious what it would look like if someone was "obviously playing with a simulator". They buy three Wharves and money and pretend their opponent doesn't exist? They make bad decisions when things get interactive? See, you can also do that without any fancy tools.

Welcome to Isotropic, Star Dogg. People play Dominion well here, and they're not cheating.

[RisingJaguar]

http://councilroom.com/search_result?p1_name=Star%20Dogg

That's his councilroom recent games.  I skimmed his recent losses and didn't find anything particularly odd.  Maybe Star Dogg can find his example here.

Note: cheshire is I believe his wife so don't search those games. 

[Star Dogg]

Rspeer, there's an asshat in every forum isn't there, nice to meet you.

Listen, I'm not bitching because I'm loosing. On the contrary, I enjoy loosing to someone who plays well because I learn from them. As for the simulators, or whatever, I didn't even know they existed until I started looking through these forums. I'm referring to whatever playing aids people are using, and it's obvious when they are using them not because they are winning, but because they take so damn long to take their turn. It's obvious when a player is continuously consulting something.

This game I'm referring to happened a few days ago. I cannot look through that game log because I have severe photosensitive seizures. The way the text is set up on that page actually sent me into a seizure pattern last night and I spent a good half an hour with my head in the toilet after a big one. I don't know how far that game log goes back but if it's not more then a day or two it may not be there. I only posted this thread because I was talking to my girlfriend about it a few days after it happened. If it happens again I will get you your damn "proof".

We haven't noticed anything widespread, but both of us know the difference between "That person is an awesome player and got a bunch of good hands." and "There is no way in hell they could have bought all those cards by now". I also had a game last week where I COUNTED the victory points as they were being bought and at the end of the game it did not match up. My girlfriend is a professional poker player and knows how to keep track of cards in a deck better then I do. If she's had this happen with certain players too, it's not just me. This isn't an "all the time" thing, it's something that's happened a couple of times and we've noticed.

Anyway, sorry I joined this forum. I enjoy the game, I enjoy winning and loosing equally because it's a GAME. I don't ever plan on playing with any aids because i enjoy the strategy and it keeps me from loosing my marbles on days I'm on imposed bed rest. If it wasn't for this game and Catan I may never have regained my ability to do math after my head injury. I don't enjoy people who excessively use aids to the point of dragging out a game, possibly cheat by taking advantage of bugs, or talk shit to me during games. It's not worth it, it's a GAME, for FUN. I just came on here to ask out of curiosity because BOTH of us have noticed something funny going on with a FEW players.

And, for the record, I'm not a he. Nice heteronormative ASSumption there buddy. And if the only thing that matters to you in life is to get in the top rankings for a no money game, you have bigger problems then me.

[jsh357]

Not sure if you're trolling at this point, but until you can direct us to a specific log with a case of this happening, there's not much we can do for you.  In all honesty, you're being pretty vague about what crazy shenanigans are going on.  If someone's cheating on Iso, it's in everyone's interest to stamp it out I think, but we have nothing to go on.

[Star Dogg]

No, I'm not trolling, and if it happens again, I know how to find the game logs now. Thanks to the people that were helpful in me figuring that out.

[Forge!!!]

"Heteronormative ASSumption" is such a perfect combination of pompousness and anger. I love it. I hope this thread keeps going, it is awfully entertaining.

[Young Nick]

I just want to reiterate what jsh357 said. Nobody here wants to play against cheaters. We have had someone (RisingJaguar) look through your logs and he (I am assuming it is a he, but am not sure, sorry that I'm blanking on the gender-neutral pronoun) has looked through your logs for you, kindly enough, and has found nothing of the sort. I understand that the you may not be able to go through the logs, but understand that we are working with, not against, you here. Even if you could recall a single card or two from a game that you remember these fishy activities, it would be GREATLY appreciated.

I don't agree with rspeer's sassy response, but trust me, we get relatively few inconsiderate posters on the forum. Understand that from his (sorry for the male pronoun, again) POV, this does seem somewhat unrealistic. Those of us who have been on the site for long enough have seen other people stop by and claim that their opponent was cheating or their strategy unbeatable when in fact it was the OP's own misunderstanding of the game. I am not saying that that is what is going on here, but that rspeer is just salty from previous posts that are similar in style to this one.

As for the simulator-aid stuff, I must admit I am dubious. Just because someone is taking a long time between turns/decisions does not mean that he/she is a bot. Many here admit that they play better when taking their sweet time to analyze the board, especially during the first five turns of a game. As I am sure you know, a laggy internet connection also makes for a slow game. Is there any other evidence of them consulting a bot other than their slow play?

Know that none of us have ever seen (except for the stray game) anybody cheating on Isotropic, nor have we had anyone consulting bots on a regular basis. Occasionally, someone (I'm looking at you Geronimoo) will admit to referring to a bot before the game starts after the Kingdom has been determined, but this was a) not as bad as what you are saying, b) only done by a handful of players, c) not as slow as what you are saying, and d) admitted to once or twice before the practice was stopped due the forum frowning upon it. I would dig up the related post for you, but it's kind of late over here, and really, it is not that pertinent to this topic.

As for the heteronormative assumption, I figure it's something that we have to live with. There are some replacements like hir if I remember correctly, but let's be honest, those sound sort of stupid. Using "they" or "he or she" is generally taught as poor English in school, so I know that you, as a publicly-out lesbian, know that this happens all the time and is usually not worth being inconsiderate over. Sure, a POLITE correction is cool, but people really hate being attacked (read this thread over again, if you need more evidence of that) and know that you are doing the GLBTQ a disservice by being so rude about it.

I mean, I know it's really condescending to coach you on how to manage your life and such, but the GLBTQ community only can improve its image in society by taking the high road in every situation.

Lastly, and most importantly, keep playing Dominion! It's too fun to let a ranting thread turn you off from the game!

[jonts26]

(I am assuming it is a he, but am not sure, sorry that I'm blanking on the gender-neutral pronoun)

Thon

http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=2079

EDIT: Fixed link.